1.
Secretariat
At the age of 2, Secretariat was crowned Horse of the Year for his remarkable racing history. He only finished out of the top 3 one time during his career, and that was his first race.
981 points - added 4 years ago by arollison - 189 comments
Comments:
I saw Frankel race......blew my mind. However.....Secretariat was on another level, a phenomenon, the best
Added 1 day ago by guest, 1 point
I like Frankel but anyone sugesting he's as good as Secretariat is pulling your leg.The only horse that can be compared is MOW.Some say he's better.In my view,the best Euro horse was Nijinsky.Seabird was a beautiful horse but not a TC winner.The horse must be a TC winner..failing that,the horse could be considered the greatest if he held very fast times over multiple distance proving sprint and stamina.If the horse doesnt hold either the TC or the times,then its a bit rich to place him above those that do.Secretariat holds both accolades..the TC and the record times.You cant argue with that.Being unbeaten is good but not a big factor overall.
Added 2 months ago by guest, 14 points
Im english and I think Frankel was a great horse but Secretariat was a phenomenon. His record speaks for itself and its not about how many you win, its the manner of winning and and WHO you beat. Secretariat for me, hands down.
Added 2 months ago by guest, 12 points
Also, you mention underfeated. How many horses go underfeated? Frankel & Ribot, yes. But incredible horses such as Sea Bird II, MOW, Nijinsky, Citation, Dr. Fager, Mill Reef etc. all lost races for different reasons. Being underfeated doesn't make you the best...too many factors/variables. Secertariat's supernatural status is the result of his World-Class performances/times/fractions bewteen 8 & 12 furlongs. God, the horse even set world-records "pulling up" 1/1 of a mile AFTER THE WIRE at 10 & 13 furlongs!!! How many horses can you honestly say were world-class "sprinters" & "stayers"??? The answer is you can count them on a single hand w/Secertariat at the head of the class!!!
Added 2 months ago by bigred, 13 points
What has Frankel re-written??? (1) NEVER raced more than 10.5 furlongs, dodging Europe's most prestigious races (ARC, Epsom, English TC Races); (2) His 8 furlong times are mediocre at best, if not sub-par; (3) It took him 4+ years to run more than 8 furlongs??? (4) ran 14 races in 3+ years - talk about ULTRA-CONSERVATIVE & cherry picking your races; (5) If you know anything which you obviously DON'T, Secretariat lost 4 races (he was disqualified in one after finishing 1st) of which 2 he was ill and another when he didn't train for 2+ weeks!!! (His only legitamate loss was his maiden race). So spare me your nonsense because If Frankel even "sneezed", Cecil would have kept him in the barn for 3 months!!! At 9 furlongs or better Secertariat would have BURIED Frankel & SEC's world-class times at those distances prove it!!!
Added 2 months ago by bigred, 8 points
Completely defunct list already, Frankel has rewritten it (all move one place down). Top ten in the list should all be unbeaten anyway-these are supposed to be the best horses ever!! As for including horses with a less than 80% win record (Secretariat etc) -laughable.
Added 2 months ago by guest, -21 points
hes a bad ass
Added 2 months ago by guest, 0 points
The vet who did Secretariat's autopsy said he had never seen a heart so perfect and so strong.This explains how he ran so powerfully.The Belmont exhibition was jaw-dropping but I think the move on the first turn of the Preakness was his best.Ive never ever seen a horse move like that.Whilst there have many other good horses,I have never seen a horse as good as Secretariat and Ive been following racing for 50 years now.I just wish Id seen him race but I never did.
Added 2 months ago by guest, 3 points
Secretariat was the greatest horse of all time by quite some margin.ALL HIS TC RECORD WINNING TIMES ARE INTACT 40 YEARS ON!
MOW second,Ribot 3rd,The Bid four,Kelso five..Seabird would make the top ten although he left nothing for posterity,no TC,no great times etc.
Added 3 months ago by guest, 8 points
Forego had a heck of a career. He was very popular in the New York racing scene; the horse was of that great 1970 crop that produced so many winners and hall of famers: Dahlia,Mr. Prospector (maybe the finest sire of the last 40 years or so), Secretariat, Forego, Ancient Title, Desert Vixen and the list goes on. The one forgotten is Sham. He equaled track records and broke them during his Triple run. Yes, he broke down in the Belmont but that hardly overshadows his previous performances. One bad race does not make a bad horse. Before the Kentucky Derby he lost twice (the '73 season), both due to bad jockey decisions. He should have been undefeated en route to Kentucky. In the KD, he finished 8 and 1/2 lengths ahead of Forego. Yes, Forego was young and getting his legs, but 8.5 lengths would be a very difficult margin to close, even with more growth and maturity. Don't forget, Sham was also growing and maturing. Based on that race when both Forego and Sham were all out, this is why i believe Forego would have had a hard time catching Sham if the latter had continued his career. Unfortunately, Sham never had a chance to rebound and prove himself for he was suddenly retired and sent to stud. The stallion deal was to good to refuse, near 3 million dollars at Spendthrift, and that for a horse that lost his last 4 races.....Still, all the respect for Forego, probably the first or second best gelding America ever produced, the other contender being Kelso. I think Forego was far better than Exterminator, and any of the others. He was a big horse and could carry a load....His '76 Marlboro was a masterpiece.....Red1
Added 3 months ago by guest, 3 points
Secretariat set records in all three Triple Crown races. Three classic grade one stakes in five weeks and records in every one. Those records have stood for 39 years now. As a three year old, he bested great older horses, also setting course or world records. Victories on dirt, turf and mud. Horse of the Year as a two year old. Yes, he did lose (i.e., got second in) some races, but that was probably a result of his fame and appeal. By that I mean that if there had not been so much anticipation of (and perhaps pressure for) his appearance in each race, it may have been easier to scratch if there was any uncertainty about whether he was at his best that day. I don't mean to imply that any of his connections knowingly put him at risk, rather that there may have been a tacit understanding that made those who knew him best reticent to volunteer uncertainties. At any rate, Secretariat had 21 races in two seasons. Ribot was a great undefeated horse, but raced only 16 times in three seasons. Sea Bird and Shergar each raced 8 times, fewer races in their careers than Secretariat raced as a two year old. Man O' War and Kelso were great horses, no doubt, and had to carry amounts of weight that Secretariat didn't. However, as many have pointed out, Secretariat's weight was significantly greater than those horses', and any of you who run know that that does make a difference, even if it is "in shape" weight. We don't see anabolic types winning a marathon! To me, it's the totality of the careers. Secretariat had brilliant speed and amazing endurance. He won at many distances, on many different tracks, surfaces and conditions, against older champions and great horses from his own age group. It is really too bad for us all that he didn't race as a four year old. There have been other great horses in the U.S. and abroad that have thrilled us with their performances, but for me, Secretariat will always be number one.
Added 3 months ago by guest, 6 points
Dear red1:
In 57 starts, Forego had 34 wins, 9 seconds and 7 thirds (50 races in the money). He registered 24 stakes victories including 14 Grade 1 wins. Just slightly better than Sham.
Added 3 months ago by guest, 1 point
The next time you watch the Belmont Stakes take the winners time and subtract 2:24 from it. Multiply that number by 5. This will tell you how many lengths Secretariat would have beaten the winner by. Citation - 21 lengths; Seattle Slew - 28 etc.
Added 3 months ago by guest, 5 points
Secretariat LOST 5 races out of 21 starts. Hardly the record of the greatest horse of all-time.
Added 4 months ago by guest, -12 points
Sec over Forego without a doubt...Forego would have had trouble with Sham...red1
Added 5 months ago by guest, -1 points
Saw Secretariat win the Belmont. Unbelievable horse. Forego should be much higher than 18th. Sec vs Forego as 4 year olds 1 1/4 mile at Belmont. Question: Who do you like?
Added 5 months ago by guest, 0 points
Over hyped and over rated!
Added 6 months ago by guest, -15 points
If anyone has ANY doubts about Secretariat's ability to run lightning fast 1 mile or less fractions consider that he once was clocked at 32-2/5 seconds for a 3 furlong workout for an unfathomable average of 10-4/5 seconds per furlong! SEC also consistently ran 57 to 58 second 5 furlong workouts, including a workout where he "galluped" out an additional 6th furlong in 1:08-4/5 seconds. His incredible 1:33-2/5 second mile in the Gotham stakes was an additional barometer of his ability to exhibit sprinter speed. Bottom line is Secretariat was BOTH a "sprinter" and "stayer" justifying his world-class stature.
Added 6 months ago by bigred, 5 points
Especially in todays market. The good horses are sent off to stud as soon as possible. I dont have the facts or figues but it looks as if the best 3 year olds are gone before they reach 4 years . Curlin, a great athlete, was one of the very few that continued for an additional season. Money runs the industry plus a possible lack of durability in the modern specimen. I think owners want them sold to the breeders before anything happens.
Added 7 months ago by guest, 0 points
I agree with you that Sec needed an extra season to achieve his full potential. He probably would have held more records. I think a lot of good horses retire too soon to get the chance to achieve their full potential.
Added 7 months ago by guest, 3 points
There may be some truth to what you say...ManOWar descendents have done very well through the first mile, Fager, Swaps, etc....Princiquillo progeny, Secretariat, et al...have done well through the longer distances, although Kelso, a descendent of ManOWar, was an exception for he did very well through the longer distances. Unfortunately, Sec needed an extra season to be tested at the shorter distances and he didnt have that luxury. In that so called list of top 100 thoroughbreds, I thought Swaps had been severely underrated, he should have been somewhere in the top 12, probably top 9. The great jockey Eddie Arcero who rode Nashua once commented that Swaps career had been wasted by poor management, we never really saw his best.
Added 7 months ago by guest, 0 points
I think Secretariat was one of the greatest racehorses of all times and maybe the best at at over 12 furlongs but I think Swaps is better. He set world records from a mile to 1 5/8 miles. Seems that Swaps is more versatile. Sec would probably beat him at a mile and half and over but couldn't have ran with him at 1 mile or under. None of them have any business on the track with Dr. Fager at a mile or less. Also, I never liked how Secretariat fans all ways make excuses for his losses. Almost every great racehorse that lost was sick or had an injury they didn't report. I call BS on that. Sham riped his front teeth out coming out of the gate. Had it not been for that maybe he would have won the Derby. His Belmont time was amazing and his Derby time was great but still almost 2 seconds off a world record and not much faster than Northern Dancers (ND wasn't even 3 years until the end of May)
Added 7 months ago by guest, -9 points
Nice analysis. I also think he could have trimmed anywhere from 1 to 3 seconds off of Kelso's records at 2 miles, which is extraordinary at such a long distance. But this was an extraordinary horse. In that paper which I referenced earlier, there is a scale of heart mass to body mass which the avereage horse scores at about 110, Sec at about 55 to 60. The lower the figure the better, that is the horse will experience less fatigue over distance. The great Phar Lap scored at about 85 and he set records at long distances, even while carrying large imposts. So the data seems to suggest, in fact strongly suggests that Sec was a very special specimen that could have set records all the way through at least 2 miles. The races he lost in 1973 were all lost OFF THE TRACK, BEFORE THE RACE, not on the track, and that includes Prove Out. rac
Added 7 months ago by guest, 1 point
Secretariat ran in the 1973 Preakness at 37.83mph, still a world record for 9.5 furlongs although two horses have matched or betterred it in the Jockey over 10 furlongs.
Frankel`s best speed in a major race on turf was 37 mph in the 2011 2000 Guineas, although the next year he achieved almost the same speed over 10 furlongs at York.
The fastest time over 2 miles in a major race was set by Rain Lover in Melbourne in 1968, at 36.16 mph just beating Kelso`s speed in the two mile Jockey of 1964. Rain Lover was a descendant of Ribot and recorded a faster time than Secretariat`s own offspring Kingston Rule at Melbourne,
Secretariat`s 37.5 mph average speed in the 1.5 mile Belmont suggests that he would have betterred the times of all modern horses over two miles also.
Added 7 months ago by guest, 1 point
Frankel would easily beat any horse past or present but secreteriat was no nag and would. Put up a good show my friend NOW SIT DOWN !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Added 7 months ago by guest, -19 points
Frankel would have pulverized Secretariat over a mile. Secretariat that overrated, hyped -up nag.
Added 7 months ago by guest, -26 points
I just came across a paper forecasting Secretariat's performance level in the Jockey Club Gold Cup when it was set at 2 miles.....In that examination, good data is used to show that Sec could easily have set a new record in that race, easily breaking Kelso's records....I think if Secretariat ManoWar is googled, the paper is called Secretariat and ManoWar Revisited.... a new paper is published there which also talks about Secreatiats heart to body mass ratio, something not seen in other places.....Secretariat is most likely the finest horse this country ever produced....the facts demonstrate this.....
Added 7 months ago by guest, 3 points
The only thing that Frankel would be even associated to Secretariat is Frankel would be Secretariats pony horse or Secretariats rabbit horse. Why? because Frankel is vastly overrated by his own Brit company Timeform
Added 7 months ago by guest, 14 points
Frankel - no question far better than ANY horse previously
Added 7 months ago by guest, -24 points
Secretariat was truly great on his day. However he lost almost one quarter of his races, so I'm afraid that means he can't be considered as the best of all time IMHO.
Added 7 months ago by guest, -20 points
Difficult to really asses this hirse a sthe fottage shows an incredible performance where he killed his oposisition but much of this was becasuse of Jockey error; they should never have let him get that far away.
Added 7 months ago by Bill Lambert, -4 points
Kelso wasnt oversized...he stood 16 hands with a stride that barely reached 24 ft; I got this data from hatten ...Ridan was a much larger animal who could not beat Kelso...Forego was oversized and carried less of a percent of his weight than Kelso.......maybe Secreatiat can carry 132 lbs or so but i am talking about 138 or more.... Im talking about 12% or more, that which Mow and Kelso did...Mow was a bigger than avereage animal but he was no 17 hands, 1220 as forego was....Secretariat had a terrific conformation, very muscular animal and in my OPINION based on more OBJECTIVE modeling, MAY HAVE BEEN the best specimen this country ever produced at the classic distances on flat tracks, and maybe even at 16 furlongs where my work predicts a finishing time near 197 seconds, still we can never be sure ...Prove Out had a prediction time at 16 furs much better than he was able to accomplish, so we can never be sure about anything in this business....regards.....in the meantime, MOW is moving up the ladder....
Added 8 months ago by guest, -3 points
I find it intereting that you bring up the excessive weights for MOW, Kelso, and Forego who were all oversized beasts. It is no coincidence that all 3 of these horses handled large handicaps with their massive anatomical structures the primary reason for easily adapting to extra weight. That is exactly my point with regard to Secretariat. Like these 3 legends, SEC's enormous conformation would have likewise easily handled any extra weight at 4...5....and so on. Regards!
Added 8 months ago by bigred, 3 points
FYI.... Red...add to that Kelso who barely touched 16 hands and weighed probably less than 1100 pounds...yet that boy set all kinds of records at long distances carrying imposts at 12% more or less.....MOW massed in at 1150 and carried imposts at 12%. The point is that there probably is not a clear relationship between Mass and impost....The horse can or the horse cant do it and that is all there is to it.....And as far as the 'forum', opinions are like navels, everyone has one....some are more experienced than others, yes but tell that to the 'expert' who put sec in the 14 spot on the listing....I like numbers, ratios, and emperical models more than opinions, even professional opinions.....Beyer himself once quipped that that head to head between Affimed and Alyadar in the Belmont may have looked spectacular, but it wasnt.....Beyer didnt think much of it and why? Because he could score it, with a model, numbers, something more objective.....Once again, I have scored Secs potential at two miles and it looks spectacular, but seeing is believing......sec
Added 8 months ago by guest, -1 points
FYI, Foregoweighed well over 1200 pounds and the best he could carry was about 11% of his weight. Take 11% of Secs weight what do you get? And Forego raced well into his 7 year, won a ton of titles defeating the best of his 4-7 years........I guess Forego was absolutely inferior......sec
Added 8 months ago by guest, 0 points
FYI, you continue to use the word "speculation" with regard to Secretariat? Bottom line is THIS ENTIRE FORUM as well as ANY top 10 race horse list is based on sheer specuation! Also, you CANNOT use Citation or virtually any other horse to prove your point that "you simply don't know if Secretariat could have carried extra weight". Reason being NONE of these horses were 1,100 - 1,150 lbs. Secretariat was ALREADY dealing with an extra 100 - 150 lbs (10% to 15% of extra weight) , and an extra 6 - 10 would NOT have mattered at all at the age of 4!!! Lucien Lauren, Ron Turcotte, Andy Beyer, Charles Hatton (premier US racing analyst), Kent Hollingsworth (senior US trainer), and Eddie Arcaro (Citation jockey who also claimed SEC was the greatest horse ever!) all stated Secretariat was getting "better" when he retired. Also, all of the aforementioned individuals clearly indicated that Turcotte had never gotten to the bottom of Secretariat. Assuming he was healthy, SEC would have absolutely crushed his competion at 4 years old, and would have set many more records. We can only base our assumptions on the data we have, justifying why SEC's supernatural like performances place him at the top of many historians lists. Regards!
Added 8 months ago by bigred, 4 points
big red, i said he faced and defeated good horses, just not all of them: Dahlia and he needed a rematch with Prove Out. I am not saying they ducked Prove Out in the Cup. They had to give Riva a chance at that win. Still we are left with questions unanswered....also, you didnt address the euro horses..they are toughened by running tougher courses....i think i read somewhere that lucien lauren said it would take 6 months to train sec to run there...just to get the horse in form for the arc de triumph would take several months of running and training. Its all speculation on how the horse could have handled all of that....yes, he was anatomically a terrific specimen with an alleged 22 lb heart but dont forget Sham had a huge heart as well and look at what happened to him in the Belmont. Its not just heart, there are other factors as well that must be present. Its all speculation.....If you want to see how well Secretariat might have done at 2 miles, i am putting a paper together on the subject, based on probability theory. I discovered that Prove Out should have ran the 2 mile distance much faster than he did, at least a second faster. He was already showing signs of decay in his form which preempted his best output. Thats what I mean when I say its all speculation........there is no substitute for the real thing, for actually running the race and secretariat is no exception....I found that Sec's predicted time at 2 miles was record setting, by as much as 2 seconds, but once again just speculation....Nevertheless, Sec is a candidate for the best of the best, along with a few others, that is the best we can do, just name candidates.....By the way Citation had trouble carrying weight, that despite his record setting 3 year old season. Yea he dad bad ankles, but still he never won carrying more than 129 pounds...We simply dont know what they will do until they do it.......sec
Added 8 months ago by guest, 2 points
FYI, I cannot argue with the previous post that there are most likey 4 - 6 horses that could stake a claim to being the greatest horse ever such as MOW, Secretariat, Sea Bird II, etc. Certainly, when you narrow it down to a handful of these absolute superior thoroughbreds, nominating a "no-contest" winner is virtually impossible. Truly, the top tier of horses could beat each other on any given day.
Added 8 months ago by bigred, -2 points
The anatomical difference between a 3 and 4 yr-old horse is synonymous to a 15 and 21 year old male, thus the reason for handicaps. However, even as a 2/3 year-old, Secretariat had to endure extra weight EVERY time he raced! SEC's weight ranged from 1,100 to 1,150 lbs which is easily 100 - 150 lbs heavier than the standard 1,000 lb. horse. Do you honestly think as a 4 year old, SEC couldn't have handled and extra 6 - 10 lbs? SEC was a solid mass of pure muscle; a freight train with PERFECT conformation. NEXT: It is true ProveOut beat SEC at the Woodward by approx. 4 lengths, but SEC had ZERO training for nearly 2 wks and was rushed into the race at the 11th hour because Riva Ridge could not run in the mud. SEC still ran a stellar 2:26-3/5 time IN THE MUD WITHOUT TRAINING which would best nearly ANY horse on the planet except for the 4 year-old Prove Out who ran the race of his life that day (2:25-4/5). If SEC had trained properly, most experts agree he could have easily made up 1 to 1.5 seconds, but it was obvious he tired in the stretch. You quoted SEC didn’t beat good horses? How about Sham (who would have been a TC winner WITHOUT SEC), 5 yr-old Canadian Champion Kennedy Road (SEC beat him 2x), 4 yr-old premier North American champion turf horse TenTam, 4 year old Kentucky Derby & Belmont Champion Riva Ridge, 3 year-old Forego, and 6 year-old champion Couger II…all crushed by SEC who was only 3! Do you really think a beast of a horse like SEC with a 22lb. heart would not have been able to handle 2 miles? Secretariat “galloped” 1/8 of a mile past the wire in the Belmont Stakes to an unofficial world record for 1-5/8 miles, besting the legendary SWAPS record by 3/5 of a second....GALLUPED….after still sprinting the final 2 furlongs. Next time you decide to make outlandish statements, please do your homework first!
Added 8 months ago by bigred, 2 points
the best we can do is list candidates, candidates for first, second, and so forth......it is not possible to know with any certainty the 'best' of the best....Secretariat would certainly, and i mean certainly , be a top tier candidate along with 4, 5, or maybe 6 others.......a candidate for the best of the best.
Added 8 months ago by guest, -1 points
Kudos and thanks to the previous poster. Brilliantly put!
Added 8 months ago by guest, 8 points
It just amazes me how ANYONE can possibly state that Secretariat was "hyped up far beyond his ability"??? Think about this....ONE HORSE...I repeat ONE HORSE...owns ALL 3 North American TC racing records. That covers over 140 years, 420+ races and some 4,500 horses!!! The distances have remained basically the same, and considering the technical strides in training/conditioning and track surface enhancements the past half century, it is virtually unfathomable to think that ALL 3 records could continue to stand the test of time. Secretariat ran on dirt, in the rain slopped mud, and both dry/slick turf while CRUSHING 4, 5 and 6 year-old champion horses as a 3 year old. He set two unofficial world records for 1-1/4 and 1-5/8 mile distances "galluping" 1/8 of a mile AFTER the wire, and his performance in the Belmont Stakes ranks as the greatest single performance in racing history with NO horse ever coming within 9 lengths of his 1-1/2 mile dirt time. His 4 losses were compromised by 2 illnesses where he had no business racing and another loss with ZERO training for a 1-1/2 mile race wherby he still posted a super 2:26 in change time IN THE MUD!!! The fact remains, it is NOT the overall record that determines eternal thoroughbred status but the supernatural achievments achieved in their most significant wins/races. Keep in mind there are horses with stellar records that really never beat any superior horses (if you race against a turtle you will win 100% of the time!), but you can NEVER discount world-class performances that unquestionably surpass all those who have come before and after. It is in this aspect that Secretariat knows NO PEERS. Simply stated, SEC did things on a race track that immensely stretched the limits of the standard thoroughbred!
Added 8 months ago by bigred, 22 points
Greatest of all time... this horse was money!
Added 9 months ago by guest, 5 points
Out of all the other horses I've seen race Secretariat is THE BEST.
Added 9 months ago by guest, 4 points
If Sec lived up to the potential his performance norms indicated, this horse was not hyped...I ran the numbers on Sec and his potential at the Jockey Club Gold Cup distance of two miles, the way it was ran in 1973. I found that his loss to Prove Out in the Woodward was in fact an aberration, clearly a sub-performance. On removing that race from his performance line, the standard errors declined indicating that race was something of an outlier. The horse entered that race without training, and still he ran its second fastest time. Secs potential at two miles, based on his actual performances through 1.5 miles, is apparently off the charts, outdoing Kelso and Citation by large margins. No, if Sec lived up to his potential, this horse was anything but hyped......at least in American flat racing.
Added 9 months ago by guest, -1 points
Great horse, but hyped far beyond his ability. There have been better horses than Secretariat.
Added 9 months ago by guest, -30 points
I believe that the "tracks are faster now" argument is often applied incorrectly, when people argue that Man O' War's times actually surpass Secretariat's times. What has changed dramatically since MOW's time is the composition related to drainage. That means that overall tracks are faster now, but a fast track in 1920 is still comparable to a fast track in 1973, or 2012. A "heavy" or "cuppy" track, or even a "good" track in 1920 would, indeed, be slower than more contemporary tracks with similar designations. Most of MOW's races were run on a "fast" track. There are also race charts that indicate that in at least one of his races, MOW was "hard ridden." That race was the Dwyer Stakes, vs. John P. Grier, under 126 lbs. on a fast track. No excessive weight and a fast track and "hard ridden." And, indeed, he had very fast early fractions (:46 half, 1:09.4 @ 6F), but finished 9F in a somewhat tepid 1:49.1, under a "hard ride." Well, maybe he wasn't feeling great himself that day, but a horse who is never asked to work very hard, in general, has a much better post-race recovery, and we don't really know how well he would do, how sound he would stay (or how healthy) if he gave it his all every time. I think Man O' War was a great horse for his time, and a very good, possibly great horse for any time, but I personally believe that Secretariat won the genetic lottery, and I believe his accomplishments exceeded those of MOW. I also think the "superior nutrition" argument is very much overstated. Secretariat got oats, alfalfa hay, and frequent carrots and apples when he was racing. Nothing more exotic. I can't believe that 1973 oats were that much different from 1920 oats!
Added 9 months ago by guest, 1 point
OOoops! I meant to say that Prove Out's best was nearly two seconds slower than Secretariat's best!
Added 9 months ago by guest, -1 points
Those who have said Prove Out was an average horse have not checked his bloodlines. His sire was the prepotent Graustark, son of Ribot, and his dam, Equal Venture, was a full sister to Triple Crown winner Assault. However, that Woodward was Prove Out on his best day, and he was still over two seconds slower than Secretariat on his best day. And though Secretariat appeared in races on off days for him for whatever reasons, on his best days, in my opinion, nobody could or will touch him! I'm not sure if anyone here has mentioned Mill Reef, but it is interesting to note that that great champion was also a product of the Nasrullah (grandsire) Princequillo (damsire) cross, as was Secretariat.
Added 9 months ago by guest, -1 points
with his great distance and speed he would win pretty easy... and his jocky didn't even have to usse his whip, even during his famous 31 lengths belmont race..i mean, just imagine all the famous other horses like ice cream :
, Man O'War, Citation, Phar Lap, Native Dancer, Sea Bird, Ribot, Dancing Brave, Ruffian, Spectacular Bid, Seattle Slew and Dr Fager
ok, secretariat would have been the whip cream to the ice cream
Added 9 months ago by guest, 0 points
Apparently my previous piece didn't post so here it is again. Apologists of Mano don't take into account the role of genetics over time. This dimension accounts for differences in finishing times over generations. They cite shoes, tracks, weight, 'held in check', etc..., all non-heritable factors and in the year he ran. My work at "Sec and Mano Revisited', took these into account along with heritable factors over generations and found Sec ahead by 1.2 to 1.8 seconds at 12 furlongs (Mano was allowed to run in the Lawrence-Dorothy Ours). What I discovered was that Mano was impossibly GREAT, converting his times to modern figures would put his 12 furlong runs in the low 2:25 range which is amazing, he wasn't even giving his best. Still Sec, who wasn't asked, was many fractions ahead which demonstrates his greatness. What is amazing is that Mano was bred in 1920 in a foal count of 1600+. Only Sec, Count Fleet, and Mano ran like this, my top three American Horses, (along with Kelso below). sec
Added 10 months ago by guest, -1 points
I must add one more to the list, Kelso. Though I could not in my work test his performances because the horse did not run the modeled races, his 2 mile runs were sensational. This horse, which apparently just reached 16 hands with a stride anywhere from 23 to 25 ft at most, ran the finest long distance Gold Cup performances on more than one occasion setting records that will not be broken. This horse had heart both figuratively and literally and so must be included along with the three previously mentioned, Sec, Count Fleet, and Mano. It is ashamed this horse, a descendent of Manowar, was gelded. He had two careers, the second as a show jumper demonstrating high athletic ability. sec
Added 10 months ago by guest, 1 point
Secretariat was the best equine athlete because he was a freak of nature, with a heart weighing I believe 18 pounds, and being 2 1/2 times the size of a normal horse heart, no wonder he could run like a machine. Great or not, he's never been my favorite, but I do respect him as a legend that will probably never be matched.
Added 11 months ago by guest, 0 points
Typical american comment. Heres another one you guys often pull "we live in the best country in the world"
and even calling it " The World Series".. thats just crap.
america is not the whole world
that is the kind of attitude that makes the whole world not like you
Added 11 months ago by guest, -49 points
Read his record. He was THE BEST of all time - no ifs or buts. And now the Maryland Racing Commission has officially adjusted his Preakness time to 1:53; thus he set race records in each of the Triple Crown races. Incomparable!
Added 11 months ago by guest, 47 points
Not only did Secretariat WIN the TC, he won each race in record times that still hold. He won the Derby fully two seconds faster than this year's winner, I'll Have Another; we won't even discuss the Belmont (31 lengths!?), and there is an ongoing battle over a timer error in the Preakness. Win the TC and claim those record times and you're my #1 horse.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 15 points
I know this seems kind of petty, but I wish the connections of Secretariat had been able to come up with an original nickname for him, as it confuses things with the original Big Red, Man o' War. I'm not arguing merit here, just a thing about the nickname. :-)
Added 1 year ago by Emerald01, -1 points
Just a note: Man o' War was not scratched from the Kentucky Derby. he was never entered in the race.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 0 points
Phar lap is not extremely overrated!!
Added 1 year ago by guest, 0 points
Secretariat is the best horse in the world because he's the only one who had Sham as a rival. Defeating Sham thrice in the Triple Crown is arguably the greatest sport accomplishment ever.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 0 points
Secretariat IS the best without a doubt, While Sea Bird II only ran 8 and lost 1 Secretariat ran about 20 and lost 3. Then he had perfect comformation, great fun- loving personality, and ran the Kentucky faster than in everyhalf mile. So to all of you people Secretariat is the best. NO ARGUMENT.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 6 points
Phar Lap also won the 1931 1400m (7f) Group 1 Futurity Stks on a very heavy track against a top class sprinter/miler field carrying 147 pounds or 10 stone 3 as a 4yo. That weight equates to roughly 18 pounds OVER weight for age
Added 1 year ago by guest, 0 points
Sec carried more weight at 2 and 3YO than Phar Lap. Ran in arguably the most competitive decade in American horse racing history. Set 10 records including 2 world records without exertion. Broke track records in training on MUD. Defeated older, champion, horses on dirt and turf. Simply the best of all time. Again, OPhar Lap extremely overrated.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 2 points
Phar Lap did not carry massive weights. He was significantly over scale, for his age, a mere 3 times. Carried paltry weights at 2 and 3YO. Ran on the easier turf surface. Did NOT race against America's best. Very slow time, considering he was 5YO and carrying only 129 at the Agua. very overrated.
Added 1 year ago by guest, -4 points
yeh he was amazing !!! he died of a foot infection/disease. Well he was put to sleep wen the pain became 2 hard 2 bear!! R.I.P Secretariat xx
Added 1 year ago by guest, 0 points
Even the superhorse Phar Lap cant compare to Secretariat...shows you just how amazing Big Red was.I think Man O War is the only comparable horse and maybe the Bid or Europes wonder horse Seabird.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 10 points
Phar Lap. A class above all others. Won Group 1's 1400m - 3200 m. Carried Massive weights that would be banned today.. Smashed America's best with a split hoof while breaking track record, and had never raced on dirt before. Ran againt all the best at age , open classes, any track. Secretariat did not achieve anything like this.
Added 1 year ago by guest, -2 points
we have a great grandaughter of secretariat! She's with no doubt has the best conformation of all our horses and we have a warmblood!
Added 1 year ago by guest, 0 points
Guys you keep mentioning times but that is irrelevant because European horses especially in France go a relatively sedate pace for the first part of the race and the race really only takes place in the final two furlongs where as in the States horses tend to run from the off
Added 1 year ago by guest, -4 points
Secretariat won 16 races, finished 1st a 17th time but was disqualified and placed 2nd, had 2 second place finishes, 1 third place finish and was out of the money only once when he finished fourth in his first race after being "mauled" out of the starting gate by a horse named Quebec. Note, he should have been scracted in two of his losses due to illness. Where did you get your information from - a bubble gum machine???
Added 1 year ago by bigred, 3 points
You know what, I was wrong.....and I'll admit when I am.
Sec had 21 starts of which he placed 16 times and won the race outright 3. 16 places is great....although I would have liked to have seen more than 3 wins.....
Added 1 year ago by guest, -31 points
Come on, Sec only started 16 races and won 3, I don't care how fast he was.....he ONLY WON 3 races.....let's see, 3/16 = 18.75 pct. In my book that shows exactly why this horse is overrated.
Added 1 year ago by guest, -42 points
Omaha better than Secretariat or Man O'War or Seabird?Come on,thats just silly.I wish people would really think before they vote.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 11 points
FYI, the PREMIER thoroughbred speed analyst Andrew Beyer did a workup of Secretariat's stats in 2011 using an updated methodology. The results showed an absolutely incomprehensible 139 rating!!!
Added 1 year ago by bigred, 8 points
If you are looking for amazing "sectional" times, look no further than SEC's 23 second (some analysts actually think it was 22-4/5 seconds!) LAST QUATER MILE in the 1-1/4 mile Kentucky Derby to steal the win from Sham. What horse runs a final quater mile in a 1-1/4 mile race in 23 or 22-4/5 seconds, with EACH QUARTER FASTER THAN THE PREVIOUS ONE!!! My friend, you are also SO RIGHT in speaking to SEC's unfathomable burst of speed to go from last to first in the Preakness "3 WIDE" on an extremely sharp Pimilco turn since the track is only 1 mile! NO HORSE EVER could have possibly ran that fast so early in the race andthen "toyed" with Sham the last 1/4 - 1/8 mile being hand ridden! That is why SEC is the greatest horse ever...because he did things on a race track NO OTHER HORSE could accomplish!
Added 1 year ago by bigred, 3 points
I see what youre getting at.A champion horse just does enough to break from the pack and get the win regardless of time.Its a valid point.But this is what Sec did!Amazingly,he was never pushed and never felt the whip!In his greatest race,he was still accelerating.There was more in the tank and still his times are unmatched.Thats why he was the greatest ever!If Belmont doesnt convince you.look again at his Preakness.Came from right at the back,surged to the front in the space of 20 seconds and held it to the finish!A move that early would have finished lessermortals by the 1 mile mark.Hows that for sectional time?
Added 1 year ago by guest, 1 point
Secretariat holds 1 world record and its on dirt, a surface the MAJORITY of the world don't race on !! Do you think thats the reason it still stands ? Of course it is !! Track records mean NOTHING ! Check the lists of horses who hold track records anywhere and you'll find almost all of them were horses nobody even remembers. A track like Royal Ascot in England, for example, where many big races are run each year, has an uphill run in and therefore the times cannot be compared with most other tracks. A track like Moonee Valley in Australia, where they run the Cox Plate, is a tight turning track and its turf surface is strathayr. This is not conductive to running fast times. Does this mean Frankel, who's currently rated the world's best racehorse, is no good as he's not running fast time at Royal Ascot relative to the world record over the corresponding distance ? Was Sunline, who won in 3 countries, a hack because her 2 Cox Plate winning times were not close to the world record ? Of course not. Times should never be used as an indicator as to the merits of a horses greatness or for that matter when doing the form for the races this weekend. They are a useful indicator in sprint races but as the distances increase times become more irrelevant. Sectional time relative to race tempo is far more important than overall time. I concede times are much more important in the US as most of your tracks are very similar but to the majority of the world they don't mean too much. A champion horse who is a backmarker has no real say in the time it runs if the horses go slow up the front. If the champion horse keeps winning when coming from behind and thus it's finishing sectionals are continually superior, that is the mark of its greatness, more so than the overall times it achieved. Nobody would argue regarding Secretariat being a champion but it's more got to do with the races he won, the opposition he beat, his winning margins and his overall record for most people
Added 1 year ago by guest, -26 points
So what is your point? Just for the record, Secretariat did RUN 2 turf races in his last 2 wins and his FIRST turf performance resulted in a STILL STANDING 1-1/2 mile track record time of 2:24-4/5 which covers over 140 years! Also, 9 of the official 10 distance records between 1 and 2 miles were recorded on TURF justifying that fast DIRT times are more dfficult to post. The MAIN POINT is that as a 3-year-old, Secretariat posted SIX...I repeat SIX STILL STANDING world or track records in his 12 races. I want you to sit back and think about that statistic...in HALF of his 12 races, he ran the distance faster than any horse has ever run in 100+ years...NO HORSE COMES EVEN CLOSE TO SUCH A FEAT!!! Furthermore, in his last 3 wins as a 3-year old, he absolutely CRUSHED 4, 5 and 6 year-old CHAMPION race horses by 4 - 10 lengths!
I certainly am NOT blind to the fact that the European tracks reflect a significant inconsistency in their surfaces and that has to be taken into account, making the comparison between North American and European/Australian/etc. horses a near impossible task. However, in ANY sport, ratings are typically based on STATISTICAL FACTS, and until you or any other genius can come up with a more sophisticated rating scale for ALL world class horses, there can be no more sensible measuring/benchmark tool than the time it takes for a horse to complete his race because we are talking about a "race" for which the winner has posted the fastest time!!!
Added 1 year ago by bigred, 12 points
Nobody else in the world races on dirt !! Not going to say he was not a great champion but the majority of the world races on turf so a distance record on dirt means nothing to anybody outside of the US. Just like everything else, Americans seem to think the world starts on the east coast of US and finishes on the west coast of US. In racing it's called Breeders Cup World Championships, in baseball its called World Series, you call the NBA winner the world champion and the US is the only country (besides Canada) where the teams come from. It's really quite hilarious. Distance records have NOTHING to do with how good a horse was, outside of North America. The most important thing is race record. North American racetracks are basically all the same whereas you will find no two racetracks the same anywhere else in the world. I'm suprised an American track has not been set up into lanes like an athletics track. If you want to continually talk about times then why not ? Every horse can run precisely the same distance and there will be no interference from other horses.
Added 1 year ago by guest, -32 points
The 1 1/2 mile dirt is a WORLD RECORD not an American record.Turf is faster anyways.Also he still holds the 3 track records of the premier North American racetracks 40 years on.Thats unprecedented.No European horse has a TR 40 years on.His one weakness as I see it was he tended to give up if blocked.But by far and away the greatest horse that ever lived.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 1 point
His Belmont run was the greatest by any horse of all time.American,Canadian,British,French,you name it.No horse has ever run like that!
Added 1 year ago by guest, 1 point
Secretariat was unquestionally a champion. I find it hard to fathom how many here call him undoubtedly the best ever and easily no. 1 etc. These so called world records are not world records but rather North American records. The only record that counts is a horse's overall record and longevity should also be highly regarded. Almost all of the world races on turf, not dirt. There are many great champions from other parts of the world who raced as 2, 3, 4, 5 & 6 yo etc. Champions who raced left and right handed on different shaped tracks etc. Not trying to knock Secretariat but I certainly don't say he was clearly no. 1 either. Probably No. 1 in USA though. Many great horses from Europe and Australia and now Japan but its a very subjective exercise.
Added 1 year ago by guest, -24 points
To the individual who boldly stated that Man o' War would have bested Secretariat 9 out of 10 times I would love to hear your logic. Here is my logic: Secretariat's times at EVERY fraction BOTH horses ran absolutely "blow away" Man o' War! Now I do understand Man o' War carried more weight and the tracks were not as sophisticated, but the time differentials are so vastly lopsided it is obvious that Secretariat would have bested Man o' War "at least" 75% of their hypotehetical matches. You are speaking solely to emotion with your zeal obviously blinding you to the truth!
Added 1 year ago by bigred, 7 points
Absolutely incorrect! As a 3 year old, Secretariat "crushed" many 4, 5 & 6 year olds in his last four races by 4 to 10 lengths including Canada's 5 year old horse of the year Kennedy Road (twice SEC blasted Kennedy Road), 4 year-old Riva Ridge who was the prior year's Kentucky Derby/Belmont Champion and still owns the 1-3/16 mile fastest dirt track time, Champion 4 year old TURF horse Tentam who was ranked as the BEST turf horse in North America, and California 6 year-old champion Couger II. These are only a few of the older horses that looked like yearlings next to Secretariat! Regardless, here is the BOTTOM LINE: Secretariat's world class record times prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the aforementioned horses he embarrassed is not even an issue because MANY of his times have not been matched by 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, etc. ....year olds! In other words, while SEC DID crush older champion horses, virtually 99.9% of ANY HORSES could not match his record times so what is the difference??? His earth shattering performances would have BESTED ANY HORSE regardless of age with that statement 100% backed up by his world class times!!!!!!
Added 1 year ago by bigred, 9 points
Is it true Secretariat NEVER raced out of restricted grade ? How can he be called the greatest when he never raced against all comers but was rather restricted to races of his own age. Champion 3yo but best ever ? Spare me.
Added 1 year ago by guest, -27 points
Secretariats records still stand 38 years later. HOY twice. ran Derby in successive 1/4's faster than the last. Single most dominating performances ever witnessed. Won each TC race in a different and in an astounding manner. no horse comes close.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 4 points
Man O'War would have beaten Secretariat 9 times out of 10.
Added 1 year ago by guest, -26 points
Overall, secretariat has better race times and lengths than sea bird 2 or any other racehorse in history. Every book you read will spin their wishes wherever they want but the numbers speak for themselves. Of all the racehorses in history there is no other racehorse which has leapt out of the pages as secretariat has. It seems that this horse loved to run more than any other, that and likely he had the love infused around him necessary to run so gloriously.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 1 point
Like Ali - The Greatest
Added 1 year ago by guest, -3 points
Secretariat was quite clearly the greatest of all time.Only horse to touch him would be Man O'War or possibly Phar Lap.Seabird was great too but times werent fast enough.His timeform is overblown.Sec definitely first though.No doubts.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 1 point
i'm surprised big red is not #1.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 0 points
Everyone needs to sit back and listen to your selves. Its ridiculous how pissed you guys are about which race horse is better. How about this for a change, numbers never lie and you win some, you lose some. But in the end, it comes down to times, age, and well of course a triple crown. That is that, good by.
Added 1 year ago by guest, -4 points
I've never been to a horse race in my life, nor am I a big fan of the sport. However, I do love sports. Secretariat's romp at the Belmont is easily the finest non-stop 2 1/2 continual minutes in sporting history. Not even Chamberlain's 100 point game compares, as it took him all game. One must remember that on the day of the Belmont, millions of non racing fans from around the world turned on their TV's to see for the 1st time a horse that everybody was talking about. Not only did Secretariat deliver, but he beat the hype from wire to wire. An astonishing display that will be referenced for as long as people talk about horse racing and sport in General. This very well may be the holy grail of sporting records....and it still stands almost 40 years later!
Added 1 year ago by guest, 5 points
This is so US centric, you need to break this down into differnt distances and surfaces. to say LAmmtarra wa sthe best because he held the course record for the Derby is ludicrous. Just look at Dancing Brave who came from last to first ( almost at epsom. his tiome for the last two furlongs is regarded as the best and quickest finish to that race and then the ground conditions make or break records. undoubtedly the best horse of recent time is See the Stars, won everything with a turn of pace that has startled all before him. can go from the front or coem out f the pack. I would match him against any. Talking of the greatest race horses of all time there is only one...ARKLE..
Added 1 year ago by guest, -2 points
The experts say Man O'War and Secretariat.Sec has much better times but ran in competitive era with less weight.We can safely say these 2 are the greatest US horses.I like Seabird and Nijinsky for best European.Whos better overrall?Only God knows for sure...but I would say that Sec's Belmont race was the best ever display of power by a horse.
Added 1 year ago by guest, -1 points
I think Secretariat was amazing and his Belmont win was incredible. But Man O War won a race by 100 lengths. In fact he retired because no one would race him. I am a Man O War fan but the movie about Secretariat gave me a love and appreciation for him. If Disney would make a movie about Man O War, maybe the Sec fans would appreciate him as well. We saw Sec run. We didn't have the privilege to see Man O War run. So it's not right to compare what you saw to what you didn't.
Added 1 year ago by guest, -1 points
AWESOME points & regarding his illness, SEC detractors FORGET that Man o' War was scracthed from the most prestigious race in America (the Kentucky Derby) because he had a virus, while Ruffian was scrathed from a major stakes race in the fall of 1974 due to a low grade fever. Simply put, horses CANNOT run well when they are ill (didyou ever try going to the gym with a virus/fever???), but Penny & Lauren knew they couldn't scratch SEC because of the 25,000+ people who came out to the track to see him run. Many experts clearly state SEC was mishandled and should have never been beaten. One last thought...how many people realize that SEC's quarter mile fractions in the Kentucky Derby were faster than each preceding fraction, a REMARKABLE accomplishment over a 1-1/4 mile race. To steadily increase your speed from start to finish over that distance should be virtually impossible...who does that! SEC was, indeed, the greatest horse who ever graced a racetrack!
Added 1 year ago by bigred, -1 points
Secretariat holds the STILL STANDING fastest recorded times in the world on dirt all the way from 1 3/16 to 1 5/8 miles in HISTORY and is just 0.2 seconds off the current 1 1/8 mile world record. He NEVER lost a race that was not caused by ill health (x2), unprepared replacement for other horse in long distance race (x1), severe interference (x1) or unfair disqualification (x1). Excluding these factors, he won his remaining 16 races all by handsome margins of multiple lengths, never a photo finish. Under healthy and fair conditions he would beat ANY horse put against him, not by a nose but by a margin of lengths.
Added 1 year ago by guest, -3 points
Simply the Best ever. When he died, an autopsy revealed a heart over twice the size of his average competitor.
Added 1 year ago by guest, -4 points
I think that Secretariat is and always will be the greatest racehorse. The only reason he lost the 2 races was the fact that his jockey was just overall bad, and the second time was due to a abscess. If he didn't have that I feel he could have won that race.
Added 1 year ago by guest, -5 points
Great point and ABSOLUTELY RIGHT ON THE MARK! I find it interesting that Man o' War was scratched for the Kentucky Derby, thus preventing him from being a TC winner. In fairness to MOW he was most likley "under the weather" and appropriately scratched. Unfortunately, Secretariat was NOT scratched for two of his 3 losses as a 3-year old when he was ill and don't believe for one second Tweedy & Lauren didn't know he was far less than 100%. There was NO WAY Sec was being scratched for the Wood Memormial when his recent $6M investors showed up to the race. Secondly, more than $50,000 jammed Sratoga to see Sec run in the Whitney and fever or not, he was going to run. Turcott "begged" Lauren to scratch him but Lauren refused, saying he would put another jockey on Sec if Turcott refused to ride him. Secretariat was a victim of his superior greatness since his owner and trainer assumed his uncanny ability could overcome even illness and sub-par training (Woodward Stakes).
Added 1 year ago by bigred, -5 points
To all those people who keep citing Secretariat's 3 losses at three...he showed those losses were flukes (abscess, illness with fever, last minute sub on the slop while preparing for a turf race a week later), by killing the field and setting a track or world record after each loss - Derby (still standing TR), Marlboro Cup (WR for 1 1/8), MOW Stakes (TR in first race on grass). Secretariat got a virus in the fall of '73 that would have put most horses out for the season - he was therefore below form after the TC races, but still won major races. SUPER HORSE!
Added 1 year ago by guest, 1 point
Thank you! Finally somebody that knows a bit or two about race horsing. Prove Out was a super and vastly under rated horse. In fact, in most experts eyes, he still reigns as the only horse who legitimately bested Secretariat (Sec's other defeats were related to illness & literally being "mauled" out of the starting gate in his 1st race). True, Sec should have never run in this race because he was training on grass for the Woodward. Regardless, I don't think ANY HORSE could have bested Prove Out that day since his 2:25-4/5 time in the mud was too incredible for even Sec to match! No doubt Secretariat was the greatest horse ever but on that 1973 wet day, Prove Out reigned supreme!
Added 1 year ago by bigred, -5 points
There was nothing "very average" about Prove Out. He had a career plagued by injuries and bad handlers. However, after Allen Jerkens got a hold of him and he was in good health, he showed he go run right up there with the all time greats. In the 1973 Woodward, he whipped Secretariat on a sloppy track that Steve Haskins said "wasn't playing fast at all and turned in the 2nd fastest 1 1/2 mile in history at 2:25.8. He gave up 7 pounds to Secretariat in doing so. A few weeks later, he crushed Secretariat's great stablemate, Riva Ridge, in the 2 mile Jockey Club Gold Cup by 33 lengths in 3:20. The only horse ever to run faster at this distance was Kelso in 3:19.2.
Added 1 year ago by guest, -6 points
Let's just wait until the Arc before you start singing the praises of SYT. I would like to see how he copes with the devastating finishing kick of the Epsom Derby winner Pour Moi, who will be much better suited to the Longchamps track than he was with Epsom.
Added 1 year ago by guest, -6 points
I am the individual who posted the tip regarding So You Think at Royal Ascot but was not counting on diabolical tactics employed by the trainer and an equally diabolical ride by Britains 'No 1' jockey in Ryan Moore which had they not have occured would have had SYT winning the race easily. This lends support to a previous posters comment stating that records of horses are tarnished by factors beyond their control that subsequently bring them undone such as pilot error, interference and farcicly paced races. In saying that the top ten horses listed are pretty spot on however, an Australian horse called Carbine mounts a pretty spectacular argument for inclusion... A record equal to and perhaps superior than Phar Lap and was an entire that subsequently excelled at stud. Bit of Aussie pride here if you couldn't tell.
Added 1 year ago by guest, -9 points
I hope that I did not offend you in any way with my comments, that wasn't my intention. Red Rum's Grand National record as you mentioned in an earlier post will NEVER be equalled let alone beaten. He was without any doubt the most loved racehorse this side of the pond. On the subject of the US. I'm sure I don't need to tell you that the United States,in my humble opinion, is the greatest country on the planet, I really do believe that and I feel I am well qualified to say this as I shall be spending my 10th vacation in your great country next week. All the Americans I have met since 1999 have been friendly,helpful and extremely hospitable and I cannot speak highly enough of them. You also have some of the most wonderful scenery on earth. I fell in love with the USA the very first time I visited the country in 1999 and will never take my vacations anywhere else. My best wishes to you,my friend.
Added 1 year ago by guest, -2 points
I am prepared to concede that I am not qualified to comment on Red Rum's position as a steeplechaser.I said that it was just my opinion.I do find it bizarre that hes not in the top ten steeplechasers but European racing is very different.HAndicap or not,the horse still has to jump those 40 fences,negotiate the traffic of fallers and unseated horses and time his run to the finish to perfection(jockey).If you Brits say he wasnt one of the best then okay I'll acccept that.He's your horse.Just so you know,Aintree is your most famous race,far more famous to non-UK people than your derby or arc or gold cup.Its watched religiously this side of the pond.
Added 1 year ago by guest, -4 points
I would concur 100 per cent with the last contributor regarding the undeniable greatness of Secretariat, his race record is beyond dispute. Red Rum, as anyone who knows anything about British National Hunt racing will tell you, was most definitely NOT one of the great steeplechasers to have raced in Britain and Ireland. If Secretariat had won the biggest handicap race in the US on three occasions do you think that he would have been regarded the greatest American racehorse ever? No,of course he wouldn't. But that is what the guy who thinks that Red Rum three Grand National wins in a handicap race amounts to. Please,if you don't know what you are talking about it's best to say nothing at all on the subject, with respect.
Added 1 year ago by guest, -3 points
To state Secretariat is overrated is ignorant. Obviously racehorses in different countries run different types of races. That being said, anyone with a brain stem who saw his performances in the 1973 Triple Crown races saw BRILLIANCE on the part of this Athlete. He was, and for many will remain, a national treasure. Has any naysayer in this group 'bested' Sec's time at Belmont? Obviously not. His records speak for themselves. He was a phenomenon, with far better manners & dignity than some of the clowns on this discussion. Case closed.
Added 1 year ago by scgloe1, 1 point
I cant comment further on Red Rum except to say that he did win Aintree 3 times and no other horse will match this.Ever.That is his record like it or not and you can throw all the academia you want at it but the record speaks for itself.Same for Secretariat.His record immediately silences any attempt to take away what is rightly his.We have nothing to fall back on but the record.
Added 1 year ago by guest, -3 points
I will just give you one example to prove to you that Red Rum WASN'T the best steeplechaser or even one of the best . In the 1973 Grand National Crisp carried top weight of 12 stone (168 pounds) and Red Rum was set to carry 10stone 4 pounds (144pounds) , Crisp was jumping superbly despite his huge weight and it was only in the last few yards that Red Rum managed to pass Crisp to win by just over a length. Now it doesn't take a rocket scientist to conclude that Crisp would have beaten Red Rum if they were both carrying the same weight. Crisp was a very good chaser but by no means one of the best. I can assure you that Red Rum was definitely NOT one of the greatest chasers, but he was much loved by his millions of adoring fans which probably gives people like yourself a misleading impression that he must have been one of the greatest jumpers, which is simply not true.
Added 1 year ago by guest, -1 points
We're never going to agree which is fine.A top thoroughbred runs maybe 20 races in his race career and has 2 possibly 3 years to shine.What does he leave behind for posterity in this small window?How many wins in 1st class races,how many TC wins,how many TR's,how many WR's?Sure the horse is probably going to have a few off days and get beaten...the judges take account of that.But this is essentially the footprint on time that the horse leaves.Theres nothing else to judge the horse by.If you have a better system let the judges know please.
As to Red Rum,I'll say this...his 3 wins and 2 seconds in the MOST DIFFICULT RACE IN THE WORLD in my humble opinion automatically qualify him as one of,if not the greatest jump horse ever.The horse that won 5 Cheltenhams must be up there as well but Id say3 AIntrees > 5 Gold Cups.Championship races or not,the AIntree course is a greater test and so it must carry more weight!!
Added 1 year ago by guest, -3 points
Clearly I am unable to convince you that the only way to determine one horse's superiority over another is when they race against each other and one or other prevails,which is common sense in anyone's language. Secretariat couldn't break track records every time he raced,nor could he win every race he contentested by 31 lengths, which emphasises the fact that he was not a machine,just flesh and blood. As for Red Rum. You must understand that the Grand National is a unique race,totally different to any other type of jump race. Very few of the top chasers ever contest the race because they would be handicapped with huge weights which would give the others carrying much lower weights a distinct advantage. On a park course, which is any other racetrack in the country, Red Rum's race record was very ordinary indeed. To put that into perspective here is Red Rum's record at Aintree: Ran 5 times, won 3 times and was second twice. Now compare that with his race record on all the other tracks he raced on: Ran 98 times,won 19 placed 36 ,unplaced 42 and he fell once. I think that you will agree that on the balance of his form he was a much better horse when he ran at Aintree than when he ran on other courses. Red Rum was never good enough to contest the championship races such as the Cheltenham Gold Cup and the King George VI Chase. The stark fact is that if the Grand National didn't exist as a race then I'm afraid Red Rum would never have achieved the fame and recognition that he has.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 0 points
I never said it was easy as 1,2,3 to decipher a horse's record and come up with a rating.Its complex.Very complex.But this is indeed what they do.Head-to-head is impossible for obvious reasons and is in anycase an unsatisfactory way of ajudicating it,if it were possible.eg,SEC ran the 3 greatest races in US history in succession but lost to Onion.Ok,so Onion is better??????No,for obvious reasons they take the overall record.If Lammtarra isnt Europe's greatest horse,then what about Nijinsky.His record was damn good in that he won the TC.It cant be Seabird because saying how effortless and majestic he was JUST DOESNT CUT IT.You have to win the TC and the times must be top notch.Its flat racing for chrissakes!!What else is there except times to indicate greatness!!!!!AS regards Red Rum,true I dont know much about the jumps but I do know he won AIntree a record 3 times.As that is the worlds most difficult jump course,if it were being judged this side of the Atlantic,then he would figure VERY PROMINENTLY.Only common sense.Also he never fell in 100 races,am I right?
Added 1 year ago by guest, -6 points
No, I'm afraid that Lammtarra wouldn't be Europe's biggest contender as the course record he established when winning the Epsom Derby was bettered last year when Workforce set the new figures. Lammtarra's Prix de l'arc de Triomphe time has also been bettered by others. That is not to say that Lammtarra wasn't the best European racehorse, but that can never be proved.
Added 1 year ago by guest, -2 points
I understand that you know nothing about National Hunt racing in the British Isles and Ireland, as Red Rum wouldn't make the top 10 of the best steeplechasers of all time and that is FACT, whatever anyone else says to the contrary. As for who was the greatest flat performer of all time, the question is purely academic as there is no conceivable way of proving it. Extrapolations of form, time, records, quality of opposition,winning distances,etc don't count for a hill of beans. The only definitive proof that horse A is superior to horse B is when the two horses race head to head and one or the other prevails. All you are doing in these posts is propounding an unsubstantiated opinion. Please don't misunderstand me , there is nothing wrong with that as long as it is not dogmatically asserted to be a fact.
Added 1 year ago by guest, -1 points
Of course you judge a horse by its record.The win-lose ratio is not really important but is considered.The number of wins in big races and the margins therein are the next marker.Then the number of track records.And finally the number of world records.Secretariat still has 4 TR's and 1 WR 40 years after retiring.This is unmatched and so he is de facto the greatest of all time.4 TR's(belmont,preakness,derby,marlboro), 3 WR's(1 1/8.1 1/4 ,1 1/2 dirt) with just 1 still remaining (1 1/2 dirt) and largest margin ever in 1st class horserace((31 lengths).MOW had numerous records but of course all broken now.I wouldnt argue with anyone who tied these two for the win but officially SEC is the greatest racehorse of all time.And Seabird?Holds no TR or WR whatsoever and never did.Times and records count for a lot in flat racing.Dont let anyone tell you differently.Lammtarra would be Europe's biggest contender.Its only in the jumps that times dont count.Greatest jump horse must be Red Rum or Arkle but thats not my area so dont quote me.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 0 points
most australian horses are not that good and not in the same class as european and american horses. there has never been an australian winner of the breeders cup which only goes to prove how poor australian horses are
Added 1 year ago by guest, 4 points
I bet the guy who said that So You Think would win at Royal Ascot feels an idiot. What a donkey that horse is. Secretariat would have given So You Think 2 furlongs start and still beaten him easily.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 5 points
You might not like the head to head encounter scenario, but that is the ONLY way that a definitive conclusion to an argument involving two or more racehorses is ever settled. I could say that Secretariat was superior to Man O'War, but how can I possibly prove that assertion. The simply answer is I can't, nor can anyone else.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 1 point
I dont like the head-to-head analogy one bit.Look at Secretariat being beaten by Onion.Sec had the inside line which he hated.He always ran his best on the outside going wide and clear.If youlook at the race where he gets beaten by Onion,you can see that hes effectively blocked and cant get through.So I dont go with head to head analogies one bit.What if one horse is running a temperature or has an abcess?If my life was at stake I wouldnt take the bet in the above scenario.If it was just money,Id put everything I could afford to lose on Secretariat.
Added 1 year ago by guest, -5 points
In any hypothetical horse race involving all the great racehorses in the history of thoroughbred racing,few would argue that Secretariat would start favorite. On the balance of his record alone, which includes being in possession of the fastest times in two of the three legs of the Triple Crown, and with very strong claims of having recorded the fastest time in the third leg also,despite an electronic failure in the timing for that race. Secretariat has,rightly in my opinion, been the benchmark by which all other racehorses are judged.
Added 1 year ago by guest, -1 points
While I am certainly partial to Secretariat, I would also take Sea Bird II, Man o'War or Spectacular Bid. While Sea Bird II only ran 8 races, his performances were virtually effortless, Man o' War's lregacy speaks for itself and Spectacular Bid may be the most under rated horse ever!
Added 1 year ago by bigred, -1 points
What I would say is that Secretariat is in possession of all the requisite attributes if you MUST have one horse to run for you ,if your life depended on it.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 2 points
I'm NOT so brave! I only meant if you HAD NO CHOICE but to choose a single horse over that distance it would be Secretariat!
Added 1 year ago by bigred, -2 points
All I can say to you,my friend, is that your are a much braver man than I. But then we all possess a certain degree of bravado when there is no likelihood of being put to the test. I suspect that in the event of a real life situation, where your life is on the line, then you might not have the courage of your current convictions.
Added 1 year ago by guest, -2 points
You make a super point my friend because NOTHING in any sport is a guarantee. Who would have thought that a tiny horse named "Prove-Out could run a 2:25-4/5 second time in the mud over a 1-1/2 mile track (one of the fstest 1-1/2 mile times EVER) and best Secretariat??? To place Prove-Out's time in perspective, Seattle Slew ran a 2:29+ in his Belmont Stakes TC "in the mud" win which means Prove-Out would have bested Slew that day by almost 16 lengths!!! What I am saying is based on your analysis, "if you had a gun to your head" and had to pick a horse to win a 1-1/2 mile run, I think you would go with Secretariat!!! Other than that, no one knows with 100% certainty what would happen.
Added 1 year ago by bigred, 0 points
Let us, for a moment at least, delve into the realms of fantasy and imagine a purely hypothetical situation. Assembled in a World Championship race ,run over a distance of 1mile 4 furlongs , are the following horses: Secretariat, Man O'War, Citation, Phar Lap, Native Dancer, Sea Bird, Ribot, Dancing Brave, Ruffian, Spectacular Bid, Seattle Slew and Dr Fager. My apologies to anyone who feels that other great racehorses should be included in this imaginary race, but I had to draw the line somewhere. Now the question I would like to ask is this: If it was possible to bring these great racehorses together in one race, and if your life depended on selecting the winner of this race, how confident would you be to have one horse running for you with the outcome determining whether you live or die? Personally, I would not even consider it, because I couldn't be 100 per cent certain of the outcome. Yes, I know that this is a totally impossible scenario, but what I have tried to highlight here is the pointlessness of trying to compare one racehorse with another when they are generations apart. Secretariat statistical record is,indeed, superior to any other racehorse,but you cannot dogmatically claim that because he set more records than any other horse,that this automatically means that he would have beaten all the other great racehorses of history in a head to head physical encounter. Because Usain Bolt smashed Michael Johnson's World 200 metres record, and is also the World record holder at 100 metres,does this mean that in a head to head encounter of both these athletes at their peak that Bolt would have beaten Johnson over 200 metres? I,for one, would'nt have been prepared to predict the result.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 7 points
There is way too much emphasis placed on a horses record, especially considering the myriad of factors that go into a race including: (1) competition, (2) age & related handicaps, (3) Jockey error(s), (4) track surfaces/conditions, etc. Babe Ruth struck out a seemingly countless number of times, Michael Jordan lost baseketball games, Ali and Sugar Ray Robinson lost fights (and they WERE the best, pound for pound at their craft), Sandy Koufax was beaten by inferior teams and the list goes on and on. Yet, as an example, these sports icons will forever be the the benchmark for all to follow at their craft. Secretariat did lose some races and whether you believe there were extraordinary circumstances impacting most of those loses (which there were!) is NOT THE ISSUE. As one of the previous "guests" recently stated, Secretariat's records in the Triple Crown still reign supreme (except the Preakness which was only tied, not broken) almost 40 years later, a virtual unfathomable fact! Are you kidding me...the same horse owning ALL 3 RECORDS! Sec simply did things on a Mile+ surface that reached beyond the assumed limits of a race horse. Bottom line is Secretariat at his finest was " the best of the rest", a sheer running machine that is the closest thing to perfection we will ever see on a race track.
Added 1 year ago by bigred, -1 points
As much as I respect your opinion and, believe me, I do, no amount of statistical data and analysis can compensate for physical confirmation. As a physical encounter is palpably out of the question ,then it is not possible to arrive at an incontrovertible conclusion of one horse's superiority over another. Just to clarify the position of Ali being 8 years older than Foreman. It is a recognized fact of heavyweight boxing that heavyweights do not reach their prime until well into their 30's, so clearly the age factor was not a detrimental factor here. Incidentally Foreman regained the world heavyweight title when he was well into his 40's some 20 years later.
Added 2 years ago by guest, 0 points
I dont agree.It doesnt allow for variables(eg in your example,Ali was OLDER-8 yrs?- and not in his prime).One day Secretariat loses to Onion or Prove Out and the next day he runs like an equine God.You have to judge the athlete.man or beast,at his best.I mean what if Phelps gets beat at London Olympics?Does that mean he is no longer the greatest swimmer of all time and the gold medallist is?Secretariat has run the THREE greatest races in succession(one of them WR never to be beaten).I think this is enough to make a conclusion without being subjective.I really do.
Added 2 years ago by guest, -7 points
No, I'm afraid that a horse's record; number of wins against losses and the standard of opposition it defeated and the time comparisons still wouldn't solve the argument. Let me give you a boxing analogy to try and explain the difficulty in going on records instead of face to face encounters. I'm sure that nobody would argue that prior to the "Rumble in the Jungle" George Foreman's boxing record was superior to Muhammad Ali's ( Foreman had annihilated Frazier; Ali found Frazier a real handful. Foreman was unbeaten; Ali had been beaten. Foreman had more knockouts on his record than Ali. Foreman went into the fight with Ali an overwhelming favorite; few people gave Ali much of a chance against the ferocious punching power of Foreman. The rest,as they say,is history. Ali made Foreman look like a complete novice. I stand by what I said in my previous post . Hypothesis is the enemy of reason and logic. It is only when two horses,fighters,athletes, or whatever ,compete against one another can there be an indisputable outcome. Anything else is merely dabbling in the realms of subjective opinion.
Added 2 years ago by guest, 1 point
Very difficult to judge something like this.A horse can have an off day,a poor jockey,an unlucky line etc so going head-to-head may not be as decisive/fair as you think.The record must be the decider;number of wins vs losses( and the quality of the competition in those wins!) and the times.How else can you do it?You cant confuse greatest with favorite and be emotional about it.
Added 2 years ago by guest, -5 points
In the final analysis, regarding the argument as to who was the greatest racehorse in the history of thoroughbred racing, the answer is quite obvious to anyone with a reasonable,logical mind; WE WILL NEVER KNOW! All these assertions that Secretariat or Man O'War,or Citation or whoever is the best is nothing more than hypothesis. Only when two or more horses race against each other can an issue of who was the best ever be proved. In the case of the horses that have been mentioned that is evidently impossible. We can all expound our theories that this or that horse was the greatest ,but they are just that,theories. If any horse can be beaten in its racing career then who is to say that he might not have been beaten by one of the horses from an earlier period. You should all keep in mind this undeniable truism of thoroughbred racing: HORSES ARE FLESH AND BLOOD; THEY ARE NOT MACHINES!
Added 2 years ago by guest, -1 points
I think iconic racing analyst Charles Hatton, who just happened to see BOTH Man o' War and Secretariat said it best..."Secretariat's only point of reference is HIMSELF"...boldly admitting Secretariat was, indeed, the more superior horse than Man o' War. Of course, we will never know for sure since they were both incredible horses. However, when a racing icon such as Hatton who saw BOTH horses run claims Sec was the best horse ever, you can't help but listen!
Added 2 years ago by bigred, 1 point
To the last poster..I think what you say is very very true except for one horse.Big Red.His feats were breathtaking and clearly unrivalled in any era.
Added 2 years ago by guest, -6 points
Calling Secretariat just a "good" horse is loony.His TC wins are the greatest in American racing.His Belmont run will NEVER be surpassed.Please review your inane remarks.Being unbeaten is a nice accolade but is ultimately immaterial.Zenayatta won19/19 before being beaten..does it make her greatest?Of course not.Man O'War was a legend but still behind Big Red.If we adjust his times for weight/unadventurous trainer/the era he ran in, HES STILL BEHIND BIG RED.Those are the facts.Th only question remaining is there a non-US horse to rival Big Red?My answer is unequivocally NO but Im open to discussion.As an aside,Spectacular Bid would take my vote as 2nd greatest US horse behind Bg Red ahead of MOW.
Added 2 years ago by guest, 0 points
All I ever hear from you Big Red fans about his defeats are EXCUSES! EXCUSES! and wait for it....more EXCUSES! Bottom line is Secretariat was a good horse but a long way short of being the best. Oh, and by the way , your English grammar leaves a lot to be desired,as does your spelling!
Added 2 years ago by guest, -3 points
Whoever you are you obviously don;t have a clue about what you are taking about. Do you realize that when Prove Out beat Secretariat he ran an incredible 2:25-4/5 mile and a half in the MUD which is the 3rd or 4th fastest 1-1/2 mile time EVER on a dirt surface (hmmm....I wonder who hold the record at 2:24!!!!). Secretariai was THROWN into that race at the "11th" hour because Riva Ridge couldn't race in the mud and Sec still ran a fantastic 2:26-3/5 second time that would have blown away any of the so called "30 horses" you stated in your prior note...still one of the top 10 fastest 1-1/2 mile dirt times. Regarding Onion, Sec had a 101/102 tempature and should have NEVER raced that day. In fact, Turcott REFUSED to ride him beacuse he was sick but when Lauren threatened to simply find another jockey, Turcott gave in. Please do your homework before making future ludicrous statements! Bottom line is I shouldn't even respond to anyone that says 30 or more horses are better than Secretariat because you are obviously jealous of "Big Red" and your comments are as tainted as your knowledge of race horsing. Sec is the greatest horse ever...PERIOD!!!
Added 2 years ago by bigred, -3 points
There are 30 or more horses on this list who would have left Secretariat trailing in their wake. Are you seriously expecting me to believe that Onion and Prove Out would have beaten Man O'War, Citation, Phar Lap, Ruffian,Spectacular Bid and many,many others too numerous to mention? No, the sad fact is that all you Big Red fans are wearing hoods. I suggest you take them off and take a look at the real world and not the fantasy world you all live in.
Added 2 years ago by guest, -1 points
Oh and just in case anyone asks who Lammtarra is , just take a look at him winning the Epsom Derby on his first run of the season ( second run ever ) not only winning going away , but broke the course record ,then won the King George at Royal Ascot and finished off by winning the Arc the hard way , from the front.
Added 2 years ago by guest, 2 points
Love to have seen him race against Lammtarra at Epsom . Im sure it would have been a very close race
Added 2 years ago by guest, -3 points
Definitely America's greatest horse of all time but was he better than Europe's best?how do you measure that?Is there a world rating?
Added 2 years ago by guest, -6 points
There are lots of these lists on the internet and the three names that come up time and time again are Secretariat,Man O'War and Seabird.Personally,I believe the top 20 in history are all interchangeable...you cant pick one.
Added 2 years ago by guest, -1 points
Well said. Very subjective indeed. However, what we do know is there are several races Secretariat ran in that NO HORSE EVER could have possibly beaten him. Races such as his Kentucky Derby (1:59-2/5 record running WIDE through the entire race!), Marlboro Cup (1:45 in change and GALLUPING to a tie of Spectacular Bid's 1-1/4 mile world record of 1:57-4/5...ridiculous!), and the iconic Belmont Stakes he was unbeatable. It simply cannot be a coincidence that he still owns ALL 3 Triple Crown records (including an unoffiial tie in the Preakness due to a clock malfunction), and still world record owner of the 1-1/2 mile dirt time by a FULL SECOND or 5 lengths!!!! It is unfathomable that a horse can maintain such records overa nearly 40 year period, and that my friends is the true measure of "greatness". Any horse can have a super wining record if they are racing against sub-par competition , but "THE RECORD TIMES DON'T LIE"!
Added 2 years ago by bigred, -5 points
As with most things in life we all have our different opinions and arefully entitled to express them. What many people are forgetting is that the opinions expressed about ALL the horses on this forum are just that opinions. There never can be an authoritative statement that this horse is better than that horse because they can never race against each other. No one can categorically claim that Secretariat would definitely have beaten Man O'War or Sea Bird would have beaten Ribot. I base this on the fact that Secretariat was beaten as was Man O'War so too Sea Bird. We should all of us accept that thoroughbred history on both sides of the Atlantic and Australasia has produced great racehorses and just be grateful that we have been privileged to have witnessed the exploits of those equine marvels.
Added 2 years ago by guest, 1 point
I wish people would vote responsibly but having said that I think Secretariat is positioned about right.ie a good two lengths clear of his nearest rival so I suppose alls well that ends well.The people who really annoy me are those that claim hes over-rated as it flies in the face of reason.
Added 2 years ago by guest, 0 points
I totally agree with the last contributor. This has now become a complete farce ,and all those people who have added their honest appraisals of the horses on this forum must be extremely annoyed at the way the mischief makers have spoiled things. To those responsible I will just say this: Grow up and start behaving like mature adults!
Added 2 years ago by guest, -2 points
Greatest racehorse by a mile.Beaten 4 times?Dont care.You dont have to be unbeaten to be the greatest.Kincsem would have the title if that were the case.His Belmont run is the most superlative demonstration of equine power that theres ever been or ever will be.God's mount.
Added 2 years ago by guest, 3 points
Hope you are right about So You Think. He was really impressive in Ireland when he won by 10 lengths. Might risk a £50 ante post bet on him for Royal Ascot.
Added 2 years ago by guest, -2 points
Has Rewilding, among others, to beat at Ascot.
Added 2 years ago by guest, -1 points
A ludicrous exercise trying to rate turf horses over dirt horses and vice versa. They may as well be two different species. Here's a tip for the punters... So You Think in the Prince of Wales stakes at Royal Ascot. One that will be on future turf lists as one of the greats.
Added 2 years ago by guest, -5 points
I love Secretariat.I watched the movie.I cant bellieve how unpopular Shan is now caus eof Secretariat!Now Secretariat is #1
Added 2 years ago by guest, -4 points
Great horse indeed! But never as good as Sea bird. The Belmont stakes our the kentucky Derby are never as prestigious races as L'arc the thriomphe or King George VI and Queen Elisabeth stakes.
America is just not as prestigious as Europe and the horses that Europe had were just a lot better (Montjeu, Hurricane run, seabird, ribot, sea the stars, zarkava, Shawanda, ... )
Added 2 years ago by guest, 1 point
Lochroe, I don't think so. Like DK46 said, it was Sec's natural build that (probably) would not offset him as a 4-5 year old. He was just a natural beast of a horse. We will never know for sure but it sure would have been nice to see Sec run as a 4-5 year old.
Added 2 years ago by guest, -1 points
Isn't it possible, even probable, Dannykeith46, that Secretariat would never have been better than he was at three years? Not that that makes him other than one of the all-time greats.
Added 2 years ago by Lochroe, -2 points
I'm British and must concede that Secretariat was the greatest of all time.He ran from the back,toyed with the competition and was never ridden on yet still holds all 3 TC track records and the WR for 1 1/2.No horse,not even the effortless Seabird,compares.The bravest horse of all time was Red Rum.
Added 2 years ago by guest, 2 points
To "Lochroe" - Well said and typically you would be correct but NOT with Secretariat. Keep in mind that people fail to realize "Sec" was roughly 50 - 100 lbs heavier than most race horses, topping scales at 1,100 lbs (his saddle size was exraordinary)! Most horses would have been considered overweight and/or "ot of shape" but "Sec's" extra weight was pure muscle and part of his "one of a kind" mystique. Virtually every expert agreed that extra weight would not have affected "Sec" at all because of his unique structure/build, and that 6 - 8 extra lbs would NOT have been nearly enough to negatively offset his STRONGER structure typically asscoiated with a 4 year old (I'm sure that 22 lb heart would not have hurt, either!). Trust me...at 4 Secretariat would have set unfathomable track records, and if you think the Belmont Stakes was special, I can't even fantasize what he might have done racing as a 4/5 year old. Regardless, as the old saying goes, "it is what it is" and all of these discussions only amount to pure conjecture. Happy horse rooting!
Added 2 years ago by Dannykeith46, -4 points
I don't argue with Dannykeith46 about Secretariat's prodigious ability, but it is wrong to assume that he would have maintained his superiority over his peers had he raced as a four-year-old. The weight for age scale indicates that horses ON AVERAGE improve about 6lb between the date of Secretariat's last race and the start of the following season, but some horses do not make the expected improvement, while others make much more. Very often, the champion three-year-olds are simply the most precocious of their age, which is why I reserve the ultimate accolade for the animal proving himself best when he and all his contemporaries race one another when they are fully mature.
Added 2 years ago by Lochroe, -5 points
Dead on - the greatest horse of all time by a mile.
Added 2 years ago by guest, -8 points
Someone wants to say he wasnt a great horse, the best, really. Secretariat tore up the Belmont Stakes. He finished at what 31-32 Lengths. The reason Secretariat didn't win a couple was because he was sick. Another he was disqualified for a absolutley rediculous reason. But how could you POSSIBLY call this legendary horse overrated. I meat he won by o whopping 21 lengths, he was kicking butt. WAS AND IS the best racehorse. I can't believe this is even being argued over
Added 2 years ago by guest, -7 points
you people think you know a lot about horse racing yes Secratariat may have lost 4 races but if you think about it he did win the triple crown im just sayin
Added 2 years ago by guest, -5 points
Jeepster by his own admission is a wind-up merchant, but even a wind-up merchant ought to know that Phar Lap was a New Zealand-bred who raced exclusively in Australia. And he should be able to spell Lasix correctly.
Added 2 years ago by Lochroe, -1 points
Yeah secretariat is the bomb the other horses you mentioned besides man. War I haven't heard of pry cause I don't follow horse racing or car to but like I said I don't follow the racing and still know how kickass secretariat was
Added 2 years ago by guest, -5 points
I think secretariat should be 1st!
Added 2 years ago by guest, -5 points
Apology not even necessary but sincerely appreciated! I find it truely amazing that us race horse attics can get so attached to these wonderful animals to the point of going to unending limits of battle for the ones we truely admire and love. Your passion for Se Bird speaks for itself and is an endearing quality that every horse enthusiast should be blessed with...bottom line is: may these "who's #1" arguments and horse racing itself echo for eternity!!!
Best Regards to all!!!
Added 2 years ago by Dannykeith46, -1 points
I hadn't logged in when I submitted the above post and that is why it appears as being by a guest.
Added 2 years ago by jeepster, 0 points
I apologise unreservedly Dannykeith46 and must confess that I have been winding you up a bit in these posts. I totally agree with you. Secretariat,of course, was a truly phenomenal racehorse and unquestionably one of the all time greats,that is beyond dispute. Sea Bird, Man O' War, Phar Lap, Citation, Ribot and many others belong to that select group that can all be bracketed in the same class. Once again my sincere apologies to you and I extend my very best wishes to you .
Added 2 years ago by guest, 1 point
And if SeaBird raced against "Big Red" at Belmont on June 9, 1973 he would be crossing the finish line just about now! Seriously though, the sad thing is I KNOW SeaBird was an incredible horse and undoubtedly one of the greatest. Regarding the greatest horse ever, it is SO subjective but radical comments such as yours are TOTALLY uncalled for. Secertariat was a perfect creature and has NEVER been seriously accused of taking performance enhancing drugs in the mainstream. To attack "Sec" like that only proves your undeniable fear of his iconic stature. I will not lower myself to your level anymore by responding to anymore of your $#@%$#, but end in saying BOTH "Sec" and Sea Bird were awesome and truely super horses!
Added 2 years ago by Dannykeith46, 0 points
You should take those blinkers off ,Danny boy, and take a clear look at the real world!
Added 2 years ago by jeepster, -2 points
Dannykeith46,are you seriously claiming that Secretariat DIDN'T race without the aid of Lasics in his system,because if you are then you you are a bigger fool than I thought. It is common knowledge that Secretariat raced quite regularly with the aid of this drug, which would have got him banned from appearing on a European racetrack where racehorses only race on their merit. As for Secretariat beating Sea Bird ,yeh sure he would have. WITH A FURLONG START!
There have been far better horses in the US than Secretariat, Man O' War, Phar Lap and Ruffian to name three. Get real Danny boy.
Added 2 years ago by jeepster, 0 points
Hey Jeepster...why don't you engage your brain before you engear your mouth!!! Secretariat NEVER took enhancement related drugs and was simply the BEST EVER on his OWN merit. You should be ashamed of yourself for even insinuating such a ludicrous statement. Just because "Big Red" would have kicked SeaBird's Ass on ANY Europeon surface doesn't give you the right to make false statements. Jealousy is a tough thing and I pity you for having to deal with the fact that SeaBird, or any other horse for that matter, would have gotten a great look a Secretariat's rear end at most finish lines. Please spare the racing horse community any more far fetched statements..."Big Red" was simply a "once in a lifetime" horse and you know it!
Added 2 years ago by Dannykeith46, -1 points
I doubt if Secretariat would have been the same horse if he had raced on merit instead of being pumped full of drugs such as Lasics,etc. One thing is absolutely certain he would not have been allowed on a European racetrack with all those performance enhancing drugs in his system. Epsom racetrack would definitely have found him out with its rollercoaster undulations.
Added 2 years ago by jeepster, 0 points
"I certainly don't subscribe to all the hype that Secretariat was greatest racehorse ever. He lost 4 of his 16 races and two of those losses were to very average horses in Prove Out and Onion. In my opinion Man O' War, Citation, Phar Lap and from Europe Sea Bird II and Ribot were better."
i have no idea where this guy gets his facts...secretariat ran in 21 races not 16. he also finished in the money in 20 of those 21 races, winning 16. note the belmont by 31 lengths....not only that but one of his colts Canadian Bound set a record for sale of a yearling a 1.5 million dollars. so before you comment do your homework instead of talking out of your ASS!!!
Added 2 years ago by guest, -1 points
Please relax with your "hyped to the max comment". Secretariat would beat ANY horse ANYWHERE...ANYTIME...when he was 100%. In fact, regarding your turf statement, that is absolutely ridiculous since he easily won his only 2 turf races (his last two races) with Lucien Lauren and other racing experts insisting he would have been even better on a turf surface. I don't think anyone can say who is the greatest race horse for sure, but undoubtedly Secretariat belongs on the list of potential candidates. To say he couldn't race with Europeaon horses on turf is absurd and consider how good he would have been as a 4 year old since, anatomically, Horses are far superior at 4 vs. 3! Unfortunately, due to his $6M syndication we were denied of the potential world records he would have continued to set as a 4 year old INCLUDING turf races. Why do you think Arcaro called him the best he ever saw...you are talking about the opinion of the jockey who rode CITATION...I do believe that says it all!!!
Added 2 years ago by Dannykeith46, -3 points
Great Horse, fantastic few races but over hyped to the max, never travelled only ever raced in the states, cant be considered the best race horse ever over the back of a few wins and a few records... many many many horses of same calibre and better over much more distances. He never retired an unbeaten horse, I have no doubt he wouldnt have lived with the european horses of the time on the turf...
Added 2 years ago by guest, -2 points
Bull, Sea Bird II is the best horse of all time. His derby win was outstanding! He crused up and won with a tonne in hand. Secretariat can't hold a candle to this god of horses.
Added 2 years ago by guest, -1 points
Anyone who can possibly state that Secretariat is over rated should not be part of this discussion and ste0 aside from further racehorsing analysis. Are you kidding me!!!! SEC did things on a racetrack that NO other horse EVER could posssibly match. Regarding his 4 losses (REMEMBER, one loss he did win but was disqualified for a ridiculous technicality), he was sick in 2 of those and should have NEVER run. Also, do you realize that in his other loss in the woodward stakes, Prove Out ran the 1-1/2 mile race in less than 2:26, one of the few horses ever to accomplish that feat on a dirt track....hmmm...I wonder who still holds the world record at 2:24 in the Belmont Stakes!!!! Do you also know that when SEC set the 1-1/8 mile record in the Marlboro Cup he GALLOPED to an unfathomable 1:57-4/5 mile and a quarter time....only a few fifths of a second from Spectacular Bid's world record mark....that is correct...after a 1/8 of a mile gallup!!!!!! The few racing analysts who saw Man o' War and Sec including the iconic Charles Hatton agree that Sec was the greatest horse ever. Even Eddie Arcaro who rode Citation gives the nod to Sec but then again, what does Arcaro know??? For all of you deadbeats who continue to consider Secretariat over rated, your opinions are, by far, the most shortsighted claims I have ever seen in any sports related discussion and an embarassment to both this forum and the racing industry. True, the title of "greatest ever" is very subjective and horses such as Man o'War, Citation, Count Fleet, Spectacular Bid, Seattle Slew Kelso, Ruffian, etc. could all be argubale choices. But the fact remains when Secretariat was right and at PEAK VALUE, he could do things on a racing tack far beyond the capabilty of virtually any other horse. Simply put, I pity those who would even consider the remote possiblity of calling him over rated and suggest you remain completely anonymous to avoid the utmost embarrassment of your peers!!!!!!
Added 2 years ago by Dannykeith46, 3 points
Overrated? Wow, if you can't see how amazing his Belmont stakes was then you're obviously blind. "The great American racehorses are all vastly overrated" and what exactly makes Euro horses better? Turf and dirt are two very different surfaces and this horse could run on both... impressively at that!
Added 2 years ago by guest, 1 point
Absolutely one of the best! He lost his first start bumped around and ill ridden. He was moved from first to second for a jockey error. He had an unknown abcess once and a fever and infection twice in losing efforts. Check his times for the same distances and against virtually the same horses and distances when fit and well. Not too difficult to ascertain if fairly done. His times speak for themselves and even aging horsemen who saw all the greatest horses suggest strongly that Secretariat was the greatest horse ever seen.
Added 2 years ago by budoinst, -4 points
Hello? Did anyone even watch his Belmont run? He won by like 32 lengths!! There should be no doubting that he was one of the greatest! That horse was one of a kind and not at all overrated. There will never be any matching to him. Perhaps Seattle Slew but that can be debatable.
Added 2 years ago by guest, -3 points
The great American racehorses are all vastly overrated, none more so than this one. His 22lb heart would have exploded had he tried his hand in a average handicap at Epsom let alone the Derby itself.
Added 2 years ago by guest, -5 points
Amazing horse won the belmont stakes by 31 lengths and set a record there and at the kentucky derby. no horse ever come close. he was fast not to mention beautiful. And in case you people didnt know he was more than just some horse his heart weighed 22 pounds which exlpains how he can run at such a fast pace for so long. Too bad he died at 19 his life was just beginning...
Added 2 years ago by guest, -3 points
Most over rated horse ever lost 2 of his last 3 races on dirt to average horses,there are far better horses than Sec
Added 2 years ago by guest, -4 points
Most overrated horse ever !!
Added 2 years ago by guest, -4 points
Prove out was no "ORDINARY HORSE" look him up... If horses have a god his name is "Secretariat"...It's not just the record time but the way he ran those races,five wide in the first turn,3 wide in second?
Added 2 years ago by guest, -6 points
I certainly don't subscribe to all the hype that Secretariat was greatest racehorse ever. He lost 4 of his 16 races and two of those losses were to very average horses in Prove Out and Onion. In my opinion Man O' War, Citation, Phar Lap and from Europe Sea Bird II and Ribot were better.
Added 3 years ago by charwoody, -2 points
Truly great horse ,there's absolutely no doubt about that.
Added 3 years ago by jaxartes, -1 points
2.
Man O' War
898 points - added 4 years ago by arollison - 29 comments
Comments:
Deserves to be 2nd, Secretariat would be faster with the equipment and track. Secretariat was way better than Man o' War.
Added 14 days ago by guest, 0 points
If you've never heard of Man o' War, what are you doing even reading this site much less posting on it?
Added 4 months ago by guest, 0 points
Never heard of Man of War? What did he win?
Added 8 months ago by guest, -19 points
i think man o war should have placed at least 3rd, probaley not first cause secretariat was a big yes for first, but 4th? i think he is better than that , i mean, i watch horse racing like no other and never even heard of ribot
Added 9 months ago by guest, -3 points
I think the 28ft stride is largely myth, it was never measured at that distance. The one time it was measured, it rated at between 25 to 26ft, after the Lawrence. The earliest recording of 28ft came in the Thoroughbred Record in 1920, but that was never corroborated. All the bios except for maybe one record 25 plus. A stride too long is detrimental to stride time which again is detrimental to acceleration. A horse would need a long stretch and high momentum to catch swifter front runners. Ridan (or was it Nadir) actually had a measured 28ft stride, but that horse lost many races to the shorter Kelso. Native Dancer, alleged to have had a 28 footer, won 20 of 21, but won many by small margins. There is an optimum stride length that maximizes efficiency with stride time, and that range is in the 25 ft domain, just where ManoWar's was. The horse had great acceleration for the short runs, and strides long enough to handle longer distances. The 28ft measure at Kentucky Horse Park is largely speculation, based on uncorroborated writings. ManOWar had the perfect balance, excellent distance per stride without decay to acceleration, a highly efficient design. sec
Added 10 months ago by guest, -1 points
I've read a lot of comments/arguments under both Man o' War and Secretariat. I cannot speak to non-American horses, as I am un familiar with them.
I feel that Man o' War is the greatest Thoroughbred in American racing history. In setting numerous records (breaking one by 6 whole seconds!) Man o' War was running on slower tracks and was never fully extended. It is common knowledge that he finished almost all of his races under hard pull from his jockeys. He had an incredible 28-foot stride, which is part makes him truly the original BIG RED. At the end of his career, the only horses willing to enter a race against him were Sir Barton and Exterminator (who was scratched from the race and ran on another track that same day). So what does that say about the connections of Exterminator thinking their chances really were?
Nothing could stop Man o' War. Sprint. Distance. His competitor in the Lawrence realization may have been outclassed, but that 100 length win was under tight rein.
Even as a 2-year old, MoW was giving weight to his competition, carrying higher weights that most modern races are ever asked to carry in a race.
His accomplishments simply cannot be denied,.
Added 1 year ago by Emerald01, 1 point
I know if you look at times secretariat seems faster but mow was never ever even close yo fully extended, the tracks in 1919 and1920 were not nearly as fast and even though he didn't win the triple crown he beat sir barton by 17 lengths easy. He set 3 world recordsat least 6 track records, lowered a track record by 6 seconds and won a race by over 100 lengths. He only lost once and that was because he was facing the wrong way whenvthe starting bell rang and he still almost won! Only a true champ can do that. Im not saying that secretariat wasn't one of the best cause he was om just saying i think mow was better but of course we'll never really know
Added 1 year ago by guest, 1 point
i think that if you google manowar secretariat there is a paper there that goes through all of that, secretariat and manowar revisited; and dont forget the work by charles justice, a good exploration of American thoroughbreds, and of course the work by randall and morris, A Century of Champions. In the paper referenced, Time is the dependent variable, Foal Count, a proxy variable, the independent.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 0 points
I'm sorry, I'm no mathmetician. Can you explain your study to me in layman's terms? I understand that you found times improved an average of 4 seconds in the Derby between 1920 and 1973, and you estimate that horses contributed to this by 52%. How did you set up your formula, what exactly are the dependent and independent variables? Thanks for your time!
Added 1 year ago by guest, 0 points
Also, peruse the Greatest Horse Controversy by Charles Justice. His analysis was far more detailed and he asserted that tracks didn't change all that much over time. Equipment contributed the most to change. When Fuestal made his 1/5th remark, it is not known what tracks he was referring to for all tracks vary not only in surface and consistency but also in design. My study looked at two specific tracks, Churchill Downs and Belmont for the years mentioned and for those tracks approx 2 seconds accounted for all factors other than the horse for 10 furlongs (at CD) and 3 seconds for 12 furlongs (at Belmont). Unfortunately this study lacked the ability to disaggregated the non-equine factors.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 0 points
Horses that ran after 1973 cannot be accounted for in my study because they were not included. Still, we must distinguish between average finishing times and particular finishing times. Thru 1973 particular finishing times can be estimated within the parameters of my study, and thus actual finishing times compared. This is an exercise in handicapping. As for Farley, I believe he took the 1/5th mark from Fuestal, MOWs trainer, who speculated on this. I found Fuestal's remark in commentary. For my estimates, I used actual data. On average, most of the improvement on performance can be traced to better finishers from the years 1920 to 1973. There may be cases where an unusually slow pace can cloak an off track, and that may disrupt estimates. This is a question I raised with Count Fleet, Steve Davidowitz concurring.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 0 points
@guest: I respect your work with regards to Man o' War vs. Secretariat, but I must disagree with you. If tracks, shoes, equipment, etc. only contributed to a 2 second difference, horses like Spend a Buck and Gato Del Sol would've beaten Triple Crown winners Omaha and Gallant Fox. According to Walter Farely, tracks improved by 2 seconds through the mile, meaning Kentucky Derby times improved by 2 1/4 seconds based on tracks alone.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 0 points
Secretariat , ManOWar, and Citation bring the best and worst out of us. All the poles of so called experts are built on speculation, opinion, and fixed memories of particular performances that left impressions on observers. State culture plays a role as well, for instance, the adulation of ManOWar in Kentucky in distinction to that of Secretariat in New York. Contrast this to the following of Citation in California. Kentucky Horse Park (KHP)is a monument to ManOWar just as Belmont Park is the same to Secretariat. In a similar way the Blood-Horse publication out of Kentucky competes with the New York's Daily Racing Form (DRF) for communities. All are influenced by the cultures from which they arise. The old timers referenced in one list could easily be countered by a list of old timers in another. Fixed allegiances are difficult to break. For every Sylvester Veitch is a Holly Hughs, both Hall-of-Fame trainers who 'saw them all', yet both with differing opinions as to what they saw. For every Ed Bowen, writer and editor for Blood-Horse, is a Joe Hirsch, the late writer and chief-editor for the DRF, both of high distinction yet with differing opinions when it came to 'the best'. For every Phil Georgeff or Tommy Trotter, etc, can be found an Allen Jerkins, Hall-of-Fame (HOF) trainer, or an Eddie Arcaro, HOF jockey, who both had experiences and judgments countervailing the former. Add Charles Hatton (who 'saw them all'), Andy Beyer, handicapper and co-developer of the respected Beyer Figures, Steve Davidowitz, Teddy Cox, Mike Casale, and others to that list. And finally, the Blood-Horse panel of seven which found both Secretariat and ManOWar tied for first, both receiving 3 votes, but differing by one at place giving ManOWar the edge. Hardly a consensus.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 0 points
commentators who assert that ManOWar faced competition on par with the runners of 1973. This is not correct. Taking a quote from “A Century of Champions”, a work by Randall and Morris who in 1999 transformed data compiled by Timeform modeling into book form, this text said in regard to ManOWar: “A more rational appraisal, in light of the undoubted increase in competitiveness of Stateside racing since his day, must place 'the horse' (ManOWar) on a slightly lower pedestal, but there remains no doubt of his greatness”. This statement corroborates my work (www.truevine.net/~sec@truevine.net/Legends/) completed some years ago that found similar conclusions. In that work I found that the average finishing times of Kentucky Derby winners decreased by as much as 4 seconds between 1920 and 1973. Of those 4 seconds, 2 could be attributed to the horse alone, the remainder to all other factors, improved track surfaces, lighter equipment, training, etc.... The improved specimens can be traced not only to better nutrition but to influential blood lines imported into the states from Europe, lines which included but are not limited to the potent sires Bull Dog and Nasrullah (traceable to Nearco and Phalaris), and the highly influential broodmare sire Princiquillo. According to Randall and Morris American horses achieved parity with their European counterparts in the 1960s and forged ahead in the 70s in their golden age of racing.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 0 points
Citation's OWN JOCKEY, Eddie Arcaro said Secretariat was the better horse so THAT abrutly ends any discussion regarding Citation vs. Secretariat! In fcat, Arcaro stated Secretariat was the greatest race horse he ever saw...period! Rather convincing since he rode BOTH Citation and Kelso!
Added 1 year ago by bigred, 1 point
Actually, Sylvestor Veitch called Man o' War better. Read comments from articles on Secretariat in The DRF and you will find old time horsemen who called Man o' War better. True, not many were quoted at the time, but I can give you a list of MANY who called Citation better than Secretariat, including Phil Georgeff, Tommy Trotter, Elmer Polzin, Warren Brown, and Peter Winnants. And Man o' War was nearly universally acknowledged as the better horse by those who saw both him and Cy. I have personally asked Ed Bowen this question, and he said not many experts who saw both were searched out, but he was sure many felt that way. That arguement just doesn't hold up.
Added 1 year ago by guest, -1 points
Nice try but VIRTUALLY EVERY great American racing anlyst who saw Man o' War and Secettariat race stated that Secretariat was, indeed, the greater horse INCLUDING the iconic Charles Hatton and Hollie Hughes. Alos, please don't mention Sir Barton as your defense beacuse he was "crawling" halfway to his grave when he raced against MOW. You can "spin it" all you want but Secretariat was the faster horse...case closed!
Added 1 year ago by bigred, 2 points
Don't even TRY to call Secretariat greater than Man o' War based on times. Tracks are 2 seconds faster today through the mile; even faster after that. MOW also ran on steel shoes, which were inferior to the aluminum shoes in Sec's day, and had to contend with the inferior nutrition of the day. Adjust MOW’s times 2-4 seconds (depending on distance) and most of them are better than Sec's. Plus, MOW did this carrying more weight (Let's see what Sec would do with 138 pounds: he never carried more than 124.) MOW set more records than Sec, by bigger margins than Sec, some of which stood longer than Sec's, despite the improvements in track conditions which have not significantly improved since Sec's time. Yes, Sec beat more older horses, including Riva Ridge. But MOW beat Sir Barton, who was better than all of them according to The Blood Horse. And he did this by seven lengths with a bowed tendon and a thrown shoe. This is according to Dorothy Ours' biography. MOW didn't race in the Kentucky Derby because Sam Riddle thought it was too long so early in the spring. If the Triple Crown had existed then, Riddle would have let MOW run, as he let his son, War Admiral. (The Triple Crown was not acknowledged until after MOW) Experts from The Blood Horse and The Associated Press call MOW the greatest. And let's remember that MOW was never fully extended, never asked to give his best, and usually held back. The only race MOW lost was because he was in wrong direction at the start and then blocked. In his only challenging race against John P. Grier, MOW broke from a muddy spot in the track and almost fell but still won. This is also from Dorothy Ours' book. MOW proved himself dominant under inferior conditions, heavier weights, while never being extended. We can only imagine what he could have achieved in Sec's day.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 0 points
great horse...suspect owner...but he was a product of his times...one reason its near impossible to compare horses from different decades....also..ones that run on different surfaces...conformation, training, health, jockey issues..and so much more need to be considered....
Added 1 year ago by lyoness6, 0 points
Both "Big Red's" are absolutely SPECTACULAR horses and we will never know for sure who was better. Judging race horses in different era's is an extremely difficult task, and most likely virtually impossible. However, I will say that similar to the previous post, the ONLY possible way to seriously judge horses from different eras are their racing times. While track conditions, handicaps, training methods, etc. also cloud this approach, what better possible methodology can we utilize? Won/Loss records appear to be rendered irrelevant because of the various levels of distorted competition so what baramoter can we really use to stake our claims other than official times. Human racing records (Olympics and otherwise) are the basis for rating the fastest runners ever, and since horses are likewise racing against each other, this may be the only true benchmark for this seemingly monumental conundrum. Personally, saying which horse is the greatest ever may be a futile effort. While I still strongly feel Sec is the top all-time horse, my 5 greatest "FLAT RACING" horses ever (not to insult Arkle and Red Rum enthusiasts) include Secretariat, Sea Bird II, Shegar, Man o' War and Spectacular Bid AND YOU CAN MOST LIKELY PLACE THEM IN ANY ORDER!!! Best wishes to all!
Added 1 year ago by bigred, 0 points
If theres one horse to touch Secretariat,its this one despite times.He had a nervous trainer and ran in a different era.Put him in the 1970's and it would have been close,very close.Both amazing horses.
Added 1 year ago by guest, -1 points
Guess what here are the records of times. You do the math for yourselves . . .
Man o war Secretariat
6 furlongs 1:11 1/5 1:09 4/5
1 mile 1:35 4/5 1:33 2/5
1 1/8 1:49 1/5 1:45 2/5
1 1/4 2:01 4/5 1:59 2/5
1 1/2 2:28 4/5 2:24
Now you tell me? Who was faster . .
Exactly . . . Secretariat.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 2 points
Man O'War greatest American racehorse of the 20th century by a mile. All Secretariat would have seen of him was his rear end disappearing in the distance.
Added 2 years ago by guest, -6 points
I would put Man o' War at #3, behind Citation. As great as this stallion was, you have to win the Triple Crown to solidify your credentials. I do not believe the story that his owner kept him out of the Kentucky Derby because it was too long to run that early in the season for that young of a horse. As a 2-yr old, his owner ran him in the much longer Belmont in early June. I think he was probably under the weather prior to the Kentucky Derby that year, and his owner kept him out because he would not accept anything but a win. If Secretariat had the same owner, he wouldn't have run in the four races where he was sick and his record would've been 16/17. But Man o' War was as physically imposing and gifted as Secretariat, set 3 world records, and probably had a 20+ lb. heart. Great, great horse.
Added 2 years ago by guest, -1 points
I guess you know more about racing than Charles Hatton and Eddie Arcaro who both INSISTED "Sec" was the greatest ever. As a side note, Hatton SAW Man 0' War race and Acaro RODE Ciiation...makes you wonder how impressive "Sec" really was if he could sway those two immortal racing psople his way? Hey, like I previously stated, the ttle of "greatest ever" is ridicuously subjective and horses such as Man o' War, Citation, Kelso, Sea Bird, Secretariat, Phar Lap, Spectacular Bid (please don't forget that wonder horse), Ribot, etc. could all stake claims as the greatest.....but you have to admit....it is sure a lot of fun debating it...no hard feelings!
Added 2 years ago by Dannykeith46, 1 point
Man O' War would have whupped Secretariat's ass running backwards.
Added 2 years ago by jeepster, -4 points
when he was three, he was handicapped with as much as 138 pounds in races, giving away as much as 32 pounds to other horses, few horses ever carried that much at any age as he did at that age. Has set record in the 1920's that still stand today. Remarkable horse
Added 2 years ago by guest, 0 points
The original great...won 20 of 21 races and the race he lost was by a single head and was rumored to be due to a starter (no starting gates at the time) error and he was extremely late off the line as a result....would have been the first triple crown winner easily had his owner not kept him out of the derby...sired many legendary horses including war admiral a triple crown winner
Added 2 years ago by guest, -1 points
Another of the all-time greats and rightly deserves his place in this list of equine champions
Added 3 years ago by jaxartes, 0 points
3.
Sea Bird II
Sea Bird II was the greatest European racehorse of the 20th century and quite probably the greatest thoroughbred ever to have graced the turf anywhere in the world. I have been involved in horseracing for 53 years and I've only seen two other horses who can be compared to Sea Bird II : Ribot the unbeaten Italian champion and the American wonder horse Secretariat. But for me Sea Bird II was the best of them all.
830 points - added 3 years ago by guest - 76 comments
Comments:
Sea Bird was a real superstar of a racehorse. Easily the best I have ever seen.
Added 4 months ago by guest, 3 points
Incredible racehorse. Sea Bird and Arkle were two of a kind.
Added 5 months ago by guest, 2 points
" It's Sea Bird on the wing, a great champion." Those were the words of BBC commentator Peter O'Sullevan in describing Sea Bird's win in he 1965 Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe. Every time I review the race I still get a shiver up and down my spine. There is absolutely no doubt about it in my mind, Sea Bird was one of the greatest racehorses of all time.
Added 5 months ago by guest, 2 points
i have seen this horse winning his races on youtube and he was very impressive although all the footage was in black and white. i don't know if he was better than secretariat but they raced in different eras so it is very difficult to know.
Added 6 months ago by guest, 0 points
Look no further on this list of the world's top thoroughbreds, you've found the greatest: SEA BIRD II.
Added 7 months ago by guest, 1 point
Apart from an ill- judged defeat as a 2 year-old, when he was ridden by a jockey who didn't know the horse and who gave Sea Bird far too much ground to make up, he never put a foot wrong in his second season carrying all before him in winning the major European races. There has never been an easier winner of the Epsom Derby and Prix de l'arc de Triomphe. Sea Bird can rightly be regarded as one of the greatest racehorses of all time.
Added 7 months ago by guest, 3 points
Whilst it is impoossibnle to compare hiorses from diffrent era's Sea Birds vicorioes where he left great horses trailing in his wake are something to behold. Secretariat ran in far simpler, less demanding and poorer quality races.
Added 7 months ago by Bill Lambert, 1 point
Until Royal Ascot in 2012, no horse has bettered the Timeform rating of 145 achieved by Sea-Bird II, the winner of the Derby and the Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe in 1965. The French-trained colt coasted to victory in both races with an easy, almost effortless stride and even the great Dancing Brave, who won one of the strongest Arcs in history in 1986, could not quite equal his mark. Now, though, Sea-Bird II is the second best horse in Timeform history, with Frankel rated not just one but two pounds better on 147.
Added 8 months ago by guest, 3 points
I don't know who was the best Sea Bird or Secretariat but I do know that I have never seen an easier winner of the Epsom Derby and Arc. Sea Bird's wins in those races were just mindblowing.
Added 8 months ago by guest, 3 points
Those of us who saw Sea Bird in action in 1965 KNOW that he has no equal in Europe, America or anywhere else in the world.
Added 8 months ago by guest, 4 points
I have seen all the best racehorses in action and I have to say that for me, none of them compare to Sea Bird. He was truly exceptional, and for me, personally, he had no equal.
Added 8 months ago by guest, 4 points
Sea Bird was the greatest racehorse there ever was.
Added 8 months ago by guest, 5 points
Sea Bird and Frankel deserve to be rated top of the list of the greatest horses ever to race. I'm not saying that Big Red and all the other horses talked about here are not great horses in their own right, but I believe that Sea Bird and Frankel are truly exceptional racehorses.
Added 8 months ago by guest, 4 points
No argument Sea Bird was top of the tree. Nothing to touch him on this list.
Added 9 months ago by guest, 3 points
For me, personally, Sea Bird II was the greatest racehorse of all time, I've never seen another horse to match him that's for sure. Secretariat was a good horse, but second best to Sea Bird is all he will ever be.
Added 9 months ago by guest, 5 points
Great horse but not quite in same league as SEC or MOW.The evidence is out there,you just have to look for it.
Added 10 months ago by guest, 6 points
I still get goosebumps every time I watch Sea Bird on YouTube. It's difficult to accept the fact that it has been 47 years since this titan of the turf swept all before in that never- to- be- forgotten summer and autumn of 1965. Many of those horses that finished behind Sea Bird in the races he won went on to win top races themselves, which simply emphasised the brilliance and superiority of this truly amazing racehorse. There is no doubt about it in my mind, Sea Bird was the greatest racehorse of all time.
Added 11 months ago by guest, 6 points
One in 10 million. Sea Bird was simply in a class apart, there will never be another like him.
Added 11 months ago by guest, 3 points
TOP CLASS RACEHORSE WHO HAS NO EQUAL.
Added 11 months ago by guest, 3 points
Sea Bird II was a truly incredible racehorse,certainly without any doubt the best I have ever seen race in the past 50 years. That is not to say that there haven't been other top class horses, from all over the world, who have left their indelible mark on the horseracing scene in the last half century. Having said all that none ,in my opinion, have come up to the standard set by that French colt way back in 1965. There will never be another racehorse who will set the horseracing world alight quite like the inimitable Sea Bird,well not in my lifetime anyway.
Added 11 months ago by guest, 6 points
To answer the query :"Why is he named Sea Bird II". Well the answer is quite simple. There was a horse previously named Sea Bird, but not in the same class as Sea Bird II.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 5 points
I've always wondered why people who love horse racing and love horses disparage them so easily. To the comment about Secretariat being "doped up, pumped up, etc." Secretariat was not. He was an exceptionally healthy horse with few problems. Today, that is not the case and the American horse racing industry depends much to much on unregulated administration of various medications. It is said to see horses so lightly raced, bloodlines so crossed, and so many horses who suffer serious injury which exceeds the rate of occurrence in the past in the US or in any other country. The industry is destroying our horse racing. Read an article in the New York Times (I believe in the last month or so) about the shame of the horse racing industry).
Added 1 year ago by guest, 7 points
It is really a wasted exercise to compare horses of different eras - there are too many factors; so the point of the Epsom Derby--rising 134 feet is valid. So is it mistaken to compare Hawksters record on 1.5 miles at Santa Anita on turf to Secretariat's 1.5 record on dirt. The turf @ Santa Anita has a downhill section which contributes to faster times. You really have to know what you are comparing.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 8 points
I see one contributor would not have Sea-Bird in his top 50 saying 19th century US horses beat Sea-Bird's Epsom Derby time over 1 1/2 miles.
Does he know that the Epsom Derby course rises 134 feet in the first half of the race?
Comparing times on a flat regular US oval to Epsom is like comparing chalk (Epsom geddit) to cheese).
Hawkster ran 2 22 4/5 over 1 1/2 miles at Santa Anita. Secretariat ran 2 24 at Belmont. You can compare times to times but you can not draw a conclusion. Well you can, but it an uninformed conclusion.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 7 points
why is he named sea bird II?
Added 1 year ago by guest, 3 points
It is impossible to argue with the logic of the last contributor, he is absolutely correct. Sea Bird was a truly sensational racehorse, but then so were many of those other horses mentioned in this list. Speaking for myself, I feel privileged to have witnessed the exploits of Sea Bird, who is certainly the greatest racehorse that I ever saw race.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 4 points
There is no point arguing. The only way to prove who is best is to race them all together under the same conditions. Never gonna happen, Never gonna find an answer to this argument.
Sorted
Added 1 year ago by guest, 5 points
Absolutely agree with that. Sea Bird won all his races without any artificial aids. He was easily the greatest race horse there has ever been.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 3 points
No,I'm talking about a truly great racehorse called Sea Bird II, not that hyped up ,pumped up, doped up US animal. If Secretariat had been born in Europe I doubt if he would ever have seen a racecourse. They don't allow horses to race in Europe when they are pumped full of performance-enhancing drugs.
Added 1 year ago by guest, -2 points
Interesting statement because a better race horse named Secretariat ran at Belmont Park, Churchill Downs, Pimlico, Woodbine Canada and Aqueduct and last I checked these race tracks exist on planet Earth!
Added 1 year ago by bigred, 4 points
If there was ever a better racehorse than Sea Bird then he never ran on a racecourse on this planet.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 3 points
Sea Bird II was truly a racehorse made in heaven, an equine superstar. Even though Sea Bird was such a highly- strung racehorse, he was still far and away the greatest racehorse that ever saw a racetrack. Due to his highly-strung nature he wasn't an easy horse to keep in training, and the fact that his trainer, Etienne Pollet, was able to produce him fit to race was testament to the genius of this Frenchman. I am absolutely convinced that Sea Bird was easily the greatest racehorse of all time, and nothing and no-one will ever convince me otherwise.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 6 points
Top class racehorse, probably the greatest thoroughbred ever seen on a racetrack anywhere in the world. Never be another like him , he was unique.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 5 points
The greatest racehorse ever. No argument.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 3 points
A ranking of the greatest race horses in history is obviously based on quality not quantity. Sea Bird may have raced only 8 times and was beaten once, but if you look at the quality of his wins in the The Derby Stakes and the Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe there is no doubting his claim to being the greatest race horse ever. We laymen can bicker endlessly about this, but read the book A Century of Champions by Tony Morris and John Randall. This book is the best attempt at ranking the best race horses in the 20th Century in the world. Written by two experts their opinions carry far more weight than ours. You will not agree with the placings of certain horses relative to others, but you cannot dispute their reasoning.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 5 points
THE BEST OF THE BEST AS FAR AS I AM CONCENED.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 4 points
Sea Bird was the only racehorse to send shivers up and down my spine every time I saw him race. Johnny Tillotson had Sea Bird in mind when he sang "Poetry In Motion"
Added 1 year ago by guest, 5 points
There has never been a horse to compare with Sea Bird II and there never will be.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 4 points
Seen all the great racehorses in my long life,I'm 77, and there have been some fantastic memories amongst them. If I had to single out ONE special memory then it would have to be the incomparable Sea Bird winning the 1965 Arc. To me, personally , nothing can compare with that performance, it was simply mindblowing. He was the greatest racehorse I have ever seen,that's for sure.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 4 points
For me, personally, there is absolutely no doubt that Sea Bird II was the best racehorse of all time. Each of his wins as a three year- old was achieved with such incredible ease that you got the distinct impression that he was only performing at half speed. I am convinced beyond any doubt that if Pat Glennon had asked him a serious question in any of his races then we would have witnessed something really special.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 4 points
I have never witnessed a better racehorse than Sea Bird, and I have been involved in horse racing for better than 50 years. With each year that passes I hope to see another champion to compare with the great Sea Bird but I guess I should resign myself to the fact that Sea Bird was unique and that there will never be another one like him.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 5 points
I can remember Sea Bird winning the Epsom Derby and the Prix de l'arc de Triomphe in 1965 as if it was yesterday. You never forget an experience like the two wins Sea Bird achieved in those prestigious races,which is now fast approaching almost 50 years ago. The thing I remember most about Sea Bird's victories was just how effortless and majestic they were. He had such a silky smooth action,it was a delight to watch him race. I have been privileged during my life to have seen two of the greatest racehorses of all time ,Sea Bird II and Arkle and I consider myself extremely fortunate indeed to have been around at the time they raced.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 5 points
it not easy judgeing who is the greatest horse of all time. many people have different opinions we can not all agree. for me it is big red and then phar lap and maybe man o war in third position but that is just one persons opinions. no one can agree all the time. some good horses race over in europe but i do not know much about them only when they come to america for the bc races.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 2 points
By the same token I think Secretariat was brilliant but Sea Bird II was better.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 2 points
Seabird was very good but cant be compared to Secretariat.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 5 points
Whilst I am Sea Bird's number one fan, he really was the best racehorse that I have ever seen in action, I must agree that Secretariat was a truly fantastic racehorse. His record alone stands up to the closest inspection and the times he posted in his Triple Crown victories in 1973 still stand today,38 years later. Love him or hate him, any fair minded racing fan must admit that Secretariat is one of the greatest racehorses of all time.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 6 points
In my opinion the following European horses stand ahead of the rest - Ribot, Sea Bird II, Nijinsky, Mill Reef, Brigadier Gerard, Shergar, and Dancing Brave. They all won either the King George or the Arc (being the top two WFA races in Europe) in authorative performances with Ribot, Mill Reef, and Dancing Brace winning both. Sea Bird II's win in the Arc of 1965 was the most impressive in this race beating a top class field, which obviously had a major impact on him being award Timeform's top rating. While it is extremely difficult to say, which one horse is the greatest I would rate Brigadier Gerard the most complete horse of this elite group. He won 9 WFA races over 2 seasons ranging in distance from 1600m to 2400m.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 4 points
Bigred, while Secretariat's Belmost was amazing maybe you should check out Deep Impact's effort in the 3200m Tenno Sho in 2006 running 3:13.4. Equally as impressive.
Added 1 year ago by guest, -3 points
Sea Bird II was indeed a spectacular race horse, but you might want to take 2 minutes and 24 seconds out of your schedule in the near future and watch a tape of Secretariat's Belmont Stakes run if you are truely attempting to witness perfection. What Secretrait accomplished on that historic day was to stretch the physical limits of what an equine champion should be able to accomplish. Simply stated his performance was supernatural which is why only a single horse has been able to get within 5 lengths of his time after 140+ years of racing. This is no knock whatsoever on Sea Bird II or any other world-wide horse. My sole point is that Sec's Belmont run could NEVER be matched by any horse, anywhere, anytime!
Added 1 year ago by bigred, 3 points
How can you improve on perfection? And for me,personally, Sea Bird II was the epitome of equine excellence. I can only give a totally biased opinion of this spectacular racehorse, which is to say that I have never seen a better thoroughbred in action than this horseracing superstar.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 5 points
1965 was a great year because not only was Sea Bird II the best flat horse in the world,but Arkle was also proving that he was the greatest steeplechaser there has ever been. We will never again see two horses who were so superior to every other racing at the same time.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 7 points
Best racehorse I ever saw. All the superlatives in the English dictionary wouldn't do justice to this brilliant horse's ability. He was unique, and there will never be another like him,certainly not in my lifetime anyway.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 5 points
I have to say that Sea Bird was,without a doubt, the finest racehorse I ever saw run. All his wins were achieved with the minimum of effort and he never seemed to be out of a canter. Apparently he was a very difficult horse to train as he was such a nervous type. His jockey Pat Glennon who was Australian , was on record as saying that he never got to the bottom of Sea Bird's ability as he never had to ask him a serious question in any of his races.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 5 points
They broke the mould when this horse was born,he was the pre-eminent European racehorse of the twentieth century and along with the great Italian champion stands head and shoulders above all the rest. I'm not familiar with the American horseracing scene so it would be pointless of me to make any comments about any of the racehorses from that country, although I'm sure there have been some great thoroughbreds from that country too, particularly Secretariat and Man O'War.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 6 points
Anyone who witnessed Sea Bird's rout of the Derby and Arc fields in 1965 would be in no doubt of this horses's claims to be one of the greatest racehorses of all time. I know that I have never seen a better performance by a racehorse anywhere in the world, and probably never will again.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 6 points
I cannot write about the great horses like some of you guys but I thinke I know a good horse one I see one. Arkle was great so was Mill Reef and Nijinski and Shergar. I also think that Sec Man O'War and Spectacular Bid are fantastic horses. Sea Bird was awesome so was Ribot They are all brilliant and I have seen them all on Youtube.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 4 points
Just watched this horse on YouTube winning the English Derby and the big European race they call the Arc. No escaping the fact that Sea Bird was a great horse after what he did to the opposition in those two races way back when. I'm no too sure if he would have beaten Secretariat though. I don't know much about record breaking race times on European tracks,but as far as I know Sea Bird didn't break any track records whereas Big Red did and still holds some of them nearly 40 years on.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 4 points
Pour Moi has just won the Epsom Derby and is the first French horse to have done so since Empery in1976. But without a doubt the best French horse ever was Sea Bird II who won the Epsom Derby in 1965. It is always difficult to compare great horses and probably unfair. This website contains the names of many truly great racehorses from all over the world and most of them deserve to be included here. I can only speak for myself, but I have to say that the best that I have ever seen was Sea Bird II. I don't think that I shall ever see a racehorse as brilliant as him again.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 4 points
I was lucky enough to see him win the Derby in 1965. Wow, I could not beleieve how easily he sprinted past Sunacelli and Niksar in the straight and he made it look so effortless. I saw him win the Arc on television and he was never off the bridle to beat the previously unbeaten French Derby winner Reliance II and a star-studded field that included five Derby winners and is generally regarded as the best field ever assembled for the Prix de l'arc de Triomphe. Sea Bird II was a very special racehorse.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 5 points
A silky smooth action and a truly scintillating turn of foot that took him past horses as if they were standing still. Someone once said that watching Sea Bird in action was just like a red hot knife going through butter.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 5 points
As far as I am concerned Sea Bird was by far the greatest racehorse I have ever seen. Won the Derby and Arc with imperious authority over a truly world class field. Never be another racehorse like him.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 5 points
There can be little doubt that Sea Bird, Ribot, Dancing Brave ,Nijinsky and Vaguely Noble were the best racehorses to appear on European racetracks in the Twentieth Century.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 3 points
Without a doubt one of the supreme thoroughbreds of all time despite the fact that he was a bundle of nerves whenever he raced. For such a highly-strung animal to perform with such brilliance is a true testament to the calibre of Sea Bird's undoubted greatness.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 4 points
Please STOP using the "tough" Epsom 1-1/2 mile course vs. an oval dirt track as your selling point for Sea Bird II vs. Secretariat...it is an embarassing stance. Are you seriously telling me that a tougher turf course would make up 13.5 seconds or 67.5 lengths when comparing Sea Bird's Epsom to Sec's Belmont!!! Secondly, I am NOT disputing Epsom as a tougher course but the tougher course is somewhat offset by the fact that it IS turf which ADDS time to a race horse's fractions. Substantiating that fact is EVERY World Record distance has indeed been performed on turf! If Sea Bird had raced against Secretariat at Belmont on June 9, 1973, there is NO POSSIBLE way he would have kept up with "Big Red" and would have been demoished like the rest of the field. That is simply FACT...and EVERYONE of you Europeon enthusiasts have to realize it is NOT JUST an OPINION!!!! NO horse EVER has come within 5 lengths of Sec's 2:24 time and don't hold your breath for that to happen in the near future. Sea Bird was great...absolutely no doubt about it but please stop comparing him to Secretariat,...it borders on insanity!!!
Added 2 years ago by bigred, 8 points
You are perfectly entitled to your opinion about the ability of Secretariat to handle Epsom and other courses,but there is absolutely NO DOUBT that some European courses are tougher to handle than US courses, that cannot be disputed. Obviously a twisting, turning ,rollercoaster course like Epsom is tougher to negotiate than a flat course, as all US courses are to my knowledge. Chester, the oldest racecourse in the world, is a flat course, but is extremely tight, and calls for the more nippy type of animal. No, I cannot accept your assertion that some,not all,European racetracks are not a tougher test than US tracks. How on earth can you state categorically that Secretariat would have had no problem coping with a track such as Epsom , when you have no way of proving it?
Added 2 years ago by guest, 1 point
Great horse and justifiably in top 5 of all tme but at the end of the day his times in derby and arc werent all that spectacular(a good ten + secs off am I right?).And I dont agree that Euro courses are a tougher test.Secretariat would have run up and down those sloping hills of epsom without any problem.His heart was 22lbs.He was the most powerful and fastest horse of all time.
Added 2 years ago by guest, 3 points
The Race course in prix de L'arc de Thriomphe is just a lot more difficult the the American surface! The races in europe are so much prestigious and off course Secreteriat was a great horse, but he could never reach the greatness of Sea bird II !!
Added 2 years ago by guest, 2 points
Seriously, how can you compare times returned on flat oval artificial surfaces like those in the States with those on Europe's widely varied turf tracks? Epsom's Derby course, for instance, rises steadily, with a slight bend, to about halfway then turns left and swoops steeply downhill before turning left again into the heavily cambered straight. Then, when the runners are tired, they are asked to climb the last half-furlong. I'm not saying that makes Epsom a great racecourse. On the contrary. But that's how it is.
Added 2 years ago by Lochroe, 1 point
No doubt about it,the greatest racehorse of all time. Would make all those American horses look like seaside donkeys!
Added 2 years ago by guest, -3 points
I have read on more than a couple discussion boards that Sea Bird II is the best thoroughbred of the 20th century. And this board rates him as #2. Are you kidding me? Where did this idea come from? Sea Bird II only ran 8 races, and the two races his fans cite to establish his "greatness" are the 1965 Prix de l'arc De Triomphe (won in 2:35.5) and 1965 Epsom Derby (won in 2:38.5). Both races are the same length that the Kentucky Derby was run prior to 1896. Let's for a moment not even talk about Sea Bird II's North American peers, but compare him to the Kentucky Derby champions from 1875-1895. Aristides in 1875 actually beat Sea Bird II's time for 1-1/2 miles in the Epsom Derby!!!! 10 other American horses over that period also bested Sea Bird II's time in the Epsom!!!!
Now let's talk about Sea Bird's peers. Secretariat raced only 8 years after Sea Bird retired and set a world record of 2:24 for 1 1/2 miles. When you look at the list of world records for thoroughbreds at all the various distances, several are still on the books from the late 1950's through the 1960's, and the best decade was actually the 1980's. So Sea Bird II was arguably racing during the 20 years that represented the pinnacle of thoroughbred racing. Sea Bird II's 2:35 in the Prix de l'arc De Triomphe was said to be against a stellar field of champions - an "awesome", "overwhelming" victory. Well, if Secretariat had been racing that day and was anywhere close to the form he displayed at the Belmont in 1973, he would have beaten Sea Bird II by over 50 lengths!!!! The 31 length victory over Sham in the Belmont would have looked like a warm-up compared to how he would have annihilated this European "champion".
So please, folks, let's face the facts and compare horses that really deserve comparison. Sea Bird II would not even make the top 50 horses in my list.
Added 2 years ago by guest, 1 point
Obviously the best European horse. Secretariart was the best in America. These horses shouldn't be compared. I know who I like best, and Sea Bird fans know who they love
Added 2 years ago by guest, 3 points
Secretariat is the greatest American racehorse, and Sea Bird ii is the greatest European racehose.
Added 2 years ago by guest, 1 point
The best there's ever been. End of argument.
Added 2 years ago by jeepster, 2 points
I'm lucky (and old) enough to have seen Secretariat and Sea Bird race in the flesh. I loved watching Secretariat and was thrilled by him. But US racing is a rather sterile affair. The same anti-clockwise time trial day after day.
Then I think of Sea Bird. I honestly believe this horse never broke sweat. Was he ever off the bit? Was he ever out of a canter?? We only ever saw the tip of the iceberg with Sea bird, but that was all he needed. Sea Bird was perfection.
Added 2 years ago by guest, 3 points
Sea Bird II never raced against the best in the wolrd. Never set records like Secretariat. He would never come close to any of Big Red feats especially the triple crown ones.
Added 3 years ago by rscarbro48, 3 points
I totally agree with the assessment of this brilliant racehorse. Sea Bird is generally regarded as the 'Champion of Champions' by many racing experts and I, for one, wouldn't argue with that.
Added 3 years ago by jaxartes, 5 points
4.
Ribot
This Italian horse raced in Europe in the 1950's and remained unbeaten in 16 races. He raced as a 2-year old, 3-year old and as a 4-year old and nothing could ever get near him. Ribot won two Prix de l'arc de Triomphe's in Paris and came over to Britain to win the prestigious King George VI and Queen Elizabeth Stakes. He was effective on any surface and was as tough as teak. Ribot can most definitely be classed as one of the greatest racehorses of the 20th century.
741 points - added 3 years ago by guest - 16 comments
Comments:
Unquestionably one of the greatest racehorses who ever lived. Whether or not he was the best is a matter of opinion. How would he have coped with the likes of Secretariat, Sea Bird II, Man O' War, Citation ? I never saw Ribot race, but I have no doubt that he was a truly brilliant racehorse.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 0 points
Probably the only racehorse capable of giving Sea Bird a race. Ribot was, without doubt, a truly sensational thoroughbred who possessed such brilliance that there wasn't a horse who could get anywhere near him for the three seasons he stayed in training. Unquestionably one of the all -time greats.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 0 points
Fabulous racehorse who has few if any peers. His unblemished 16 race unbeaten record speaks for itself.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 0 points
I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that Ribot would have beaten most ,if not all , of the horses on this list, he really was that good. People fail to realise how difficult it is to remain unbeaten over 3 seasons. Only the truly great horses are able to accomplish this feat, and Ribot was most definitely one of the true greats of thoroughbred racing.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 0 points
A fabulous racehorse with a perfect record which very few other racehorses can lay claim to. Would definitely be in the top 5 of any list of all time greats.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 0 points
Awesome 10 and hard to dispute...let's make it top 12 because Spectacular Bid and Sea the Stars should also be part of any "greatest horse" list.
Added 1 year ago by bigred, 0 points
The 10 greatest racehorses of all time, in no particular order?
Secretariat
Sea Bird II
Man O' War
Ribot
Eclipse
Phar Lap
Citation
Brigadier Gerard
Native Dancer
Ruffian
Well that would be my idea of the 10 greatest racehorses of all time.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 0 points
You cannot knock an unbeaten record of 16 wins stretching over three seasons. None of the top 20 horses on this list can match that. Lammtarra was unbeaten but only ran four times. Ribot was a truly great racehorse, there can be no doubt about that. Definitely in the top 5 of all time. Eclipse must also be considered as one of the greatest horses ever.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 0 points
Ribot's achilles, as most point out, was the "mid twins". 'nough said.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 0 points
Well said!
Added 1 year ago by guest, 0 points
It is impossible to find fault with this great horses's unbeaten record of 16 wins. The reason that Ribot has not received the credit he so rightly deserves is due to the fact that he raced in an era when televised racing did not have the global impact that it has today. If Ribot was racing today he would have achieved the status of an equine superstar.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 0 points
Ribot was a barrel- chested racehorse and they just didn't come any tougher than this fella. Nothing fazed him and he won on all types of going, the mark of a great racehorse. Definitely in the top three greatest European racehorses of the Twentieth Century.
Added 2 years ago by guest, 0 points
What a ridiculous comment by charwoody. There can be no doubt whatsoever that Ribot was a truly great racehorse,his unbeaten record is testament to this.
Added 2 years ago by guest, 0 points
Absolutley Great horse but not the greatest.
Added 2 years ago by guest, 0 points
I respect your opinion, charwoody, but Ribot was a truly great horse. You cannot remaine unbeaten in 16 race over 4 seasons on all types of surface and not be a great horse. His wins in England and France adds testament to this assertion.
Added 2 years ago by guest, 0 points
As good as Ribot was there are many thoroughbreds who,IMO, were far superior to him. The quality of opposition that Ribot defeated was substandard and I believe he has been vastly overrated.
Added 3 years ago by charwoody, -1 points
5.
Kelso
1960-1964 Horse of the Year, five time Jockey Club Gold Cup winner for 2 miles against the best horses in the world. Still holds record for 2 miles and also holds record for 1 1/2 miles on turf at 2:23 4/5 faster than Secretariat's Belmont, carried over 130 lbs 24 times. Handicap Triple Crown winner. Won 39 of 63, placing in the money 54 times. Ranked best horse of any age by Eddie Arcaro who rode two Triple Crown winners, Citation and Whirlaway. Not to take away from other greats, Secretariat, Man O War or Citation, Kelso proved himself for six years against the 60,000 throroughbreds in the world by becoming the highest money winner. No other horse in history duplicates Kelso's record.
735 points - added 3 years ago by guest - 7 comments
Comments:
I am British and I remember watching Kelso winning the Washington D.C, International in 1964. He was a magnificent racehorse.
Added 8 months ago by guest, 10 points
C Hanford's training philosophy of racing Kelso at 6 and 7 furlongs in May and June just to get him both mentally and physically fit (against top sprinters) is not understood today. And while it compromises his win percentage, it also gave longevity to a most intelligent racehorse (gelding).
Added 9 months ago by guest, 0 points
Oh dear! Kelso #18! Black Caviar, who up to this time of writing (6/22/12) has beaten mostly unknowns in the racing backwater of Australia, is #10 and Kelso, KELSO!, is #18. This is beyond wrong.
Added 11 months ago by guest, 33 points
#24 you must be joking! Kelso should be in the top 10. How many horses have won 39 races!
Added 1 year ago by guest, 18 points
does not belong down here...top 5 all time easily...won consistantly for years and years...
Added 1 year ago by lyoness6, 8 points
Arcaro said Citation was best rode & seen as a 3 year old. Kelso best rode & seen as a 4 yr. old in 1966 & also said Kelso could beat Citation easily. Said in 1996 rated Secretariat best he ever seen.
Added 3 years ago by rscarbro48, 2 points
Tuirf courses are faster than dirt. Hawkster has the record on turf in 2:22 4/5. Again, Arcaro said Secretariat was best he ever seen &
Citation & Kelso best ever rode! With all due respect the facts are not right here.
Added 3 years ago by rscarbro48, 1 point
6.
Citation
1948 Triple Crown Champion. Rated "best three year old ever" by Eddie Arcaro. Won 27 of 29 at three and could have won the other two but was held back. Defeated the two horses he lost to above in later races. Won 16 in a row. Could run on any kind of track. Ranked "a pound better than Secretariat" by Richard Stone Reeves the famous equine painter who knew all the horses.
712 points - added 3 years ago by guest - 7 comments
Comments:
His jockey rode whirlaway and citation, he said citation was better
Added 1 year ago by guest, 0 points
Acaro actually stated that Kelso was the best he ever rode. "I believe Kelso was the best horse I ever rode," Arcaro said. "He was Horse of the Year five straight years (1960-64), and that takes a lot of doing. And he hooked everybody, every place, on every kind of racetrack. He just was the best horse. Sprint, go a distance, run all day, He could do it all."
Added 1 year ago by guest, 1 point
Interesting comment considering his OWN JOCKEY, Eddie Arcaro, stated Secretariat was, unquestionably, the greatest horse he EVER saw including his two great horses Citation and Kelso!
Added 1 year ago by bigred, 1 point
Second best American racehorse of the 20th century behind Man O' War. That horse in third place 2furlongs behind is poor, tired, Big Red.
Added 2 years ago by guest, -6 points
I would put Citation #2 on this list. Won 19 of 20 races as a 3 yr. old, all against top competition. Won Kentucky Derby by 3-1/2 lengths, Preakness by 5-1/2, and tied the stakes record in the Belmont. Set world records as 4-5 year old.
Added 2 years ago by guest, 0 points
Probably should be top 5 and easily placed over Zenyatta.
Added 2 years ago by Dannykeith46, 0 points
Arcaro said Citation & Kelso was the best he ever rode & Secretariat best he ever seen & fastest.
Added 3 years ago by rscarbro48, 0 points
7.
Seattle Slew
Seattle Slew was the 1977 Triple Crown winner and only triple crown winner that had been undefeated prior to winning the crown.
701 points - added 4 years ago by arollison - 8 comments
Comments:
ok guys your talking about big red, no offence but i wouldn't compare her to him, he was just already faster and more distance by just looking at the records
Added 9 months ago by guest, 1 point
Genuine "great" horse. Deserves to be higher on this list.
Added 11 months ago by guest, 2 points
please remember his girl...landaluce....she (just like ruffian) gave her life on the track...and she was undefeated at the time
Added 1 year ago by lyoness6, -1 points
Truely a grat horse and worthy of an even higher spot on this list. Regarding the comparison to Secretariat, Slew falls somehat short because his times for almost every fraction simply couldn't match up to "Big Red" who was the faster horse.
Added 2 years ago by Dannykeith46, 5 points
Why is he way down here?! I think he might be better than secretariat by there could be no proving unless they raced against each other and they didn't so definatally one of the best
Added 2 years ago by guest, 0 points
agreed, he was a better horse than secretariat
Added 2 years ago by guest, -2 points
In my opinion the Greatest. The ONLY undefeated Triple Crown Winner in history. And as for breeding how about A.P. Indy and Cigar to mention just a few.
Added 2 years ago by guest, -1 points
was one of two horses to possibly challenge Secretariat the other being Dr. Fager
Added 2 years ago by guest, -4 points
8.
Nijinsky
689 points - added 3 years ago by guest - 6 comments
Comments:
There was one horse that had a better stud record, Research Carbine.
Added 1 year ago by guest, -2 points
Piggott definitely to blame for Nijinsky's Arc defeat? Identical waiting tactics had been employed for success at Epsom and Ascot. And, of course, Nijinsky had suffered a serious attack of ringworm before he was nursed home in the St Leger, probably having a much harder race than Piggott's artistry made it look, because the colt lost more than two stone after the race. So if anyone HAS to be blamed (and I don't think anyone should be) it should perhaps be O'Brien, who admitted after the Arc that he had not realised how much the ringworm had taken out of Nijinsky and that the race probably came too soon after the Leger.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 0 points
The last horse to win the English Triple Crown in 1970. That feat will NEVER be achieved again because owners and trainers tend to shun the St Leger as a target now. In any case Nijinsky was a very special horse and should never have been defeated. His jockey Lester Piggot was definitely to blame for his defeat in the 1970 Prix de l'arc de Triomphe when he was just beaten by Sassafras. Why his connections then decided to run Nijinsky in the Champion Stakes shortly afterwards,where he was again beaten, this time by Lorenzaccio, is a complete mystery to me. Nijinsky had a very tough campaign as a 3-year old ,he was on the go from April until October, fully 6 months. Perhaps those involved with Nijinsky thought he was a machine and not flesh and blood.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 0 points
Surle in the top 15 racehorses of all,close to the very top.
Added 2 years ago by guest, 0 points
In pure statistical analysis the horse of the century .Imagine winning the triple crown,Irish Derby and King George in one season-something unequaled till today.Nijinsky would surely have added the Arc to his booty but for facing an attack of ringworm..
Added 2 years ago by guest, 0 points
ran over all distances, at stud he wassecond to none
Added 2 years ago by guest, 1 point
9.
Forego
One of the best racehorses of all times, Forego was voted the Eclipse Award for Horse of the Year for three years straight: 1974, 1975 and 1976. His total lifetime earnings topped $1,900,000.
686 points - added 4 years ago by arollison - 11 comments
Comments:
A genuine "great" horse. Deserves to be much higher on this list.
Added 11 months ago by guest, 5 points
I rank Forego as the third greatest horse (American horses only) after Secretariat and Citation.
Added 11 months ago by guest, 2 points
WEIGHT is the only factor that remains unchanged in horseracing over the generations. And only the mighty FOREGO could carry the ridiculous numbers to victory so often. He was the greatest
Added 1 year ago by guest, 2 points
Great points regarding Forego's legacy. However, I do believe you do have to also throw Kelso and Man o' War into the American mix. I think it is so sad that Secretariat didn't have a chance to race as a 4 year-old. If you think SEC's 3-year old campaign was unparalleled, his 4-year old campaign would have been absolutely frightening NO MATTER HOW MUCH EXTRA WEIGHT HE WOULD HAVE BEEN SADDLED WITH!
Added 1 year ago by bigred, 0 points
Among American race horses I think Forego deserves to be ranked only behind Secretariat, Citation, and Spectacular Bid. Forego's 1976 campaign is among the greatest ever: he fell a nose short of winning the Handicap Triple Crown and then later won the Woodward Stakes and the Marlboro Cup. Had he not suffered an inflamed ankle he would have won the Jockey Club Gold Cup as the overwhelming favourite. Had he achieved there would be no doubt that he belongs as the 4th greatest American thoroughbred of all time.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 3 points
Forego won races from sprints to marathons, while carrying a mountain on his back. No modern horse has carried anything like what Forego routinely carried. He wond the 1976 Marlboro Cup carrying 137lbs and the 1975 Suburban (a mile and half race) carrying 134. Let's see some of the more recent superstars do that.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 3 points
Forego was an awesome horse. It certainly would have been awesome to watch Forego race against Secretariat as 4 and 5 year olds. What many people don't realize is that the comparison to a 3 and 4 year old colt, from an anotomical perspective, is synonymous to a 15 and 21 year old male with the 4 year old much bigger, stronger, and faster. Scary to think that we were all deprived of watching Secretariat as a 4 year old and the unbreakable earth shattering record times he might have continued to set!
Added 2 years ago by Dannykeith46, 0 points
Defeated champion sprinters JO Tobin and Dr. Patches, both of whom beat Seattle Slew. Beat another 8 or so champion horses and numerous stakes winners over many years. Beat Honest Pleasure in the Marlboro in stupefying fashion. All this on bad legs, carrying Dr. Fager on his back... There may have been a few flat our faster horses on a given day, but no horse had the heart Forego had, and therefore no horse was as favored by people, and still is. I don't know what the "best" horse means, but we all know what the FAVORITE means and -- favored in like 95+% of his 57 races -- WHO it simply has to be!
Added 2 years ago by guest, 1 point
Defeated champion sprinters JO Tobin and Dr. Patches, both of whom beat Seattle Slew. Beat another 8 or so champion horses and numerous stakes winners over many years. Beat Honest Pleasure in the Marlboro in stupefying fashion. All this on bad legs, carrying Dr. Fager on his back... There may have been a few flat our faster horses on a given day, but no horse had the heart Forego had, and therefore no horse was as favored by people, and still is I don't know what the "best" horse means, but we all know what the FAVORITE means and -- favored in like 95+% of his 57 races -- WHO it simply has to be!
Added 2 years ago by guest, 1 point
Actually that was a quote from his trainer about entering him in the Preakness. He was later gelded and returned as Sprint Champion before starting on his Eclipse run. Just happened to mature a little later than Secretariat. It would have been interesting to have seen them run as 4 and 5 year olds.
Added 2 years ago by guest, 0 points
He was a great horse but when he lost to Secretariat in the Derby his owner swore he never race his horse ever again against him.
Added 3 years ago by rscarbro48, 1 point
10.
Affirmed
This amazing racehorse had 29 starts, 22 wins, 5 second place wins, and 1 third place win. He earned $2,393,818 during his career.
620 points - added 4 years ago by arollison - 2 comments
Comments:
No as good as Frankel
Added 10 months ago by guest, -22 points
Seattle Slew tattooed him both times they met.
Added 2 years ago by guest, 4 points
11.
Dr. Fager
Raced 22 times, won18, two seconds, one third, one disqualification in the Jersey Derby. Elected to the Racing Hall of Fame three years after retirement. He gave you chills from the wind as he raced by.
618 points - added 3 years ago by guest - 6 comments
Comments:
“Dr. Fager's 1968 world record of 1:32 1/5 at Arlington Park near Chicago, the most hallowed standard of time in American racing …” - Steven Crist, NY Times, 4/9/89.
Added 1 month ago by guest, 8 points
Do you really think Dr. Fager would have posted a better time than Prove Outs 2:25.8 IN THE MUD? What are Dr. Fager's world-class 12 furlong times??? Answer: there are NONE! You surely know SEC was ill when he lost the Whitney & Wood (Abscess). At 1 mile the fastest ever...probably. Bewteen 10 & 12 furlongs Secretariat would have BURIED him!!!!!!!!!!!
Added 2 months ago by bigred, -1 points
Did you forget him and then just put him in here?Waaaay underrated. Maybe the fastest American horse ever. Move him up 50 or 60 spots.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 2 points
Heads up Dr. Fager would win more than Secretariat. Too bad Secretariat didn't win the Wood--forgot to run his race. As he forgot to run his race in the Woodward--and as he forgot to run his race in the Whitney. Also remember, Dr. Fager is the world record holder at a mile. Guess he beats Secretariat 10 of 10 to the slower Secretariat!!!!! Dr. Fager carried larger imposts and ran fantastic times. Secretariat got weight from Onion and Prove Out, and didn't beat them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! No way Dr. Fager loses to Angle Light, Onion, Prove Out, Twice 'a Prince, or Master Achiever even ONCE. Much less lose to them two years running.
Furthermore, Secretariat's great competition: Twice A Prince, My Gallant, Our Native doesn't match up with some of the great's competition.
Swaps would have ate Secretariat for lunch!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Added 1 year ago by guest, -7 points
Interesting statement since Secretariat set the 1-1/8 mile WORLD record in 1973 at the Marlboro Cup (1:45-2/5 seconds) and "galluped" to an unfathomable 1:57-4/5 seconds 1-1/4 mile that unofficially ties Spectacular Bid's still standing World Record. Bottom line is to say ANY horse at ANY distance would beat Secretariat 9 out of 10 times borders on insanity!!!!
Added 2 years ago by Dannykeith46, 2 points
Would have beat Secretariat at any distance up to 1 1/8 miles--9 times out of 10!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Added 2 years ago by guest, -7 points
12.
Native Dancer
One of the all- time greats and only ever beaten once,and even then was desperately unlucky and should have won.
595 points - added 3 years ago by guest - 4 comments
Comments:
the horse showed excellency! he was powerful and full of speed including some stamina. and i don't think it should matter where theses horses listed on here is placed, they all made it and made their names famous, bravo to all these magnificent animals
Added 1 month ago by guest, 0 points
to which big red are you referring
Added 1 year ago by lyoness6, 0 points
Far better horse than Big Red and had a much better winning ratio.
Added 2 years ago by guest, 0 points
but for a head in the ky derby he was the best ever
Added 2 years ago by guest, 2 points
13.
Spectacular Bid
594 points - added 2 years ago by guest - 7 comments
Comments:
Not to speak ill of the deceased, but the only "help" Bid had was his groom, Moe. Bud Delp was a brutally demanding trainer. His horses either stood up to the training or he threw them away. Derby week, Bid worked 1 mile on Sun, galloped 2 miles on Mon & Tues, worked 6f on Wed, galloped 2 miles on Thurs, blew out 2f on Friday, jogged on Derby day. As if that wasn't enough to kill all chance, Delp then put Ronnie Franklin on the horse! Bid's training went like this his entire career. And with all that, he still romped. Moe told me that the pin issue on Belmont was played down. He said the pin was a good 2.5 inches in the sole of Bid's hoof. When pulled out, it bled. The blacksmith had to pare the sole down to the point of oozing blood to get all the infection out. He never should have run. Moe said he was dead lame. They iced his feet and applied Foot Freeze, but in a 1.5 mile race, that only lasts about half the distance.Between Delps total disregard for the horse and Ronnie Frankilin's ignorant riding, it's amazing that Bid was able to ever win a race. Anytime he got beat, it was because he couldn't overcome Delp's training and Franklin's riding. He was truly a super horse and is highly underrated.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 0 points
The bid is EASILY a top 5 horse of all time. He had an incredible, unbeaten 4-year old season where he set numerous records carrying high weight and running various distances. He was spectacular!
Added 1 year ago by guest, 0 points
easily top 10...one of the best ever
Added 1 year ago by lyoness6, 0 points
I am a HUGE Spectacular Bid fan, and while I strongly feel he belongs in the top 5 horses of all-time, he was no Secretariat. Unfortunately for Bid, his ultra-disappointing failure in the Belmont Stakes significantly hurts his legacy. That's just the way it is in American horse racing, and there's nothing you or I can do to change that mindset. Best Wishes
Added 1 year ago by bigred, 1 point
Hey man Spectacular Bid was all round a better horse than Secretariat. Too much hype with Secretariat and overrated.
Added 2 years ago by guest, -13 points
Would have been dog meat to Secretariat, Man O'War,Citation,Native Dancer, Sea Bird, Phar Lap,etc,etc,etc,etc,etc.
Added 2 years ago by guest, 1 point
The most complete and arguably the best racehorse to have set foot on the American turf if you analyse his complete career in terms of consistency and ability to perform in all types of going.A champion at 2,3 and 4 which Secretariat or Sea Bird were not.
Added 2 years ago by guest, 0 points
14.
Mill Reef
594 points - added 3 years ago by guest - 4 comments
Comments:
Brilliant horse with an incredible acceleration! I don't understand why you wouldn't put him in the top 10!
Added 1 year ago by guest, 1 point
Not very big,but my word what a fantastic racehorse he was. I certainly take issue with the last contributor, I would rate Mill Reef at number 7 in a list of the best European racehorses of the 20th century behind Sea Bird, Ribot, Dancing Brave, Shergar, Nijinsky and Brigadier Gerard. There is no doubt in my mind that Mill Reef was top class.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 1 point
As good as Mill Reef was, he shouldn't be as high on this list as he is. There were many better European champions than Mill Reef. Sea Bird, Dancing Brave, Nijinsky, Ribot, Shergar, Sea the Stars and Brigadier Gerard to name a few.
Added 2 years ago by guest, 0 points
The best post-war British middle distance racehorse ever who could conquer the best of opposition by superlative margins on any type of going and win in any distance.Sea the Stars was more talented but could not cope on soft going or Dancing Brave or Brigadier Gerard for that matter.
Added 2 years ago by guest, 0 points
15.
sea the stars
591 points - added 3 years ago by guest - 12 comments
Comments:
Good horse, but a long way short of the best horses on this list. There are many horses below STS on this list who are better than him. Much too highly rated here.
Added 5 months ago by guest, -1 points
Only ever met poor opposition and even then he made hard work of beating them. Vastly overrated.
Not one of the great racehorses
Added 6 months ago by guest, -3 points
The best way to assess greatness is probably to compare the winning margins of a racehorse against rivals at the time, running in the same race on the same track.. Allowance would need to be made for the caliber of the beaten horses, which obviously makes this a very difficult procedure.
Another approach is to consider just the three great American and three great English races, which make up the Triple Crown in each country and to add in France`s greatest race, the Arc. These races are run over differing distances from the 8 furlongs of the 2000 Guineas to the 15.6 furlongs of the St Leger. America`s Triple Crown races and the Arc are intermediate to this.
Times and distances can be converted to an average MPH figure over the distance. From this there is no evidence to suggest that American tracks are slower than European. On the contrary Epsom Derby speeds are consistently slower, due to the toughness of the course.
It is no surprise that Secretariat at 37.83mph in the Preakness and 37.69mph in the Kentucky Derby both in 1973 is the fastest horse ever on this comparison. The fastest European horse on this basis is Sea the Stars at 37.55mph in the 2,000 Guineas, 36.91 in the Arc but only 34.45 in the Epsom Derby. All were in 2009.
The fastest Canadian horse Northern Dancer ran at 37.5mph in 1964, the same speed achieved by Secretariat in the longer Belmont nine years later. His offspring Frankel ran at 37mph in the 2011 2000 Guineas whilst Seattle Stew managed 37.35mph in the slightly longer Preakness and 36.82mph in the Kentucky Derby. Man O` War in 1020 ran the Belmont at 36.89mph. at a time when speeds were generally lower than today.
What does this prove? Only that it is hard to argue with the greatness of Secretariat
Added 7 months ago by guest, 3 points
His rating here is just about right. A very good horse, but a long way short of the very best.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 3 points
we just can't compare all horses in the history of racing since i think each of them ran their share of problems and luck but this little beast Sea The Stars is just made of another metal.u've just got to hear the comments of the commentators of that famous 2009 Arc and you would know HE'S RACING GOD!!!!!!just a champion who can run over any distance from sprint to stayers' race........something out of this world.he stands on that thin line between excellence and perfection.i would never challenge someone saying he's the all time greatest!!!!
Added 1 year ago by guest, 4 points
For me the greatest horse I've ever had the pleasure of viewing. Hi win in the Prix du L'arc De Triomphe was probably the greatest victory I've ever seen of any horse. I'd loved to have seen him up against the best in the US......especially on turf. Would have silenced those who feel European horses 2nd best.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 2 points
Is anybody heard about " Kincsem " a hungarian race horse.
Just check it out....
Theh best ever was that beast !
Added 2 years ago by guest, 2 points
Don't get me wrong, Sea The Stars is a great champion and Yes 'A Horse Of A Lifetime' but anyone who is trying to argue that he is better than Nijinsky, Shergar and Zenyatta are just totally wrong.
Added 2 years ago by guest, 0 points
When are American horses going to come over to Britain and race for the Triple Crown? The fact that they don't means that they can never be taken seriously. World records? Of course Americans hold them: they race on oval, perfectly flat, artificial surfaces as opposed to Europe's hugely varied turf courses.
Added 2 years ago by guest, 2 points
A very good racehorse - ran 2:26 for the 1-1/2 mile Prix du l'arc De Triomphe. Won all but one race, although running only 6 times as a 3 year old will certainly keep you fit, as compared to the grueling schedule for North American horses. When are European horses going to come over to America and race in the Triple Crown? A quick flight on an Airbus, get over the jet lag, and you should be ready to take on the American competition. The fact that they don't, and the fact that they run just a few races as 3-yr olds, means they can never be taken seriously. Not to mention the fact that none of them are current world record holders at any distance.
Yes a good racehorse, but shouldn't be anywhere on this list. Kelso, Seattle Slew, Affirmed, War Admiral, Spectacular Bid, etc. etc. all should bump any of the non-American horses on this list.
Added 2 years ago by guest, 1 point
Magnificent horse this Sea The Stars. Dominated everything that was put on his way. His acceleration, his class, he was just too good.
Added 2 years ago by guest, 3 points
Magnifient horse, I was at Sandown for his eclipse win and he wss fantastic. A bit overatted to be 5th but yes he was a great especially when winning the Arc.
Added 2 years ago by guest, 3 points
16.
Shergar
590 points - added 3 years ago by guest - 15 comments
Comments:
I'm afraid Shergar is vastly overrated on the basis of what he actually achieved on the racecourse. Yes, he was an emphatic winner of the Epsom Derby, but let's be honest the opposition was very poor. Shergar apart, the 1981 Derby field was one of the weakest since 1950. Shergar's limitations were exposed when he contested the St Leger, where he was soundly beaten. I was shocked and angered when he was kidnapped and killed by the IRA scum.
Added 10 months ago by guest, 0 points
Shergar should be a lot higher because he was one of the best horses that i have ever heard of !!! But when he was kinapped on February 8, 1983 no-body ever so him again!! He must be dead now though as it has been over 20 years now and horses usually only live up 2 30 years of age !! ( i have a horse so i should know) xx
Added 1 year ago by guest, 0 points
It's true that Shergar never beat top class opposition, but he could do no more than completely annihilate the opposition in his Derby victory. The only horse in the long history of the Epsom Derby to have had the race won when he turned into the straight.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 0 points
You've never seen a horse gallop like this fella did when he won the Derby. Scum IRA prevented Shergar from being a champion stallion at stud.
Added 1 year ago by guest, -1 points
It is ludicrous to rate Lammtarra as one of the all time greats based on just four racecourse appearances. It seems to me that he was whisked off to stud with great haste at the end of his second season, probably with a view to protecting his stud value as an unbeaten horse.
Added 1 year ago by guest, -4 points
Never ran against strong opposition ? Very strange comment , So how do you explain the record breaking time in the Derby ?
Added 1 year ago by guest, 0 points
There is no comparaison with Lamterra who never ran against a strong oppoistion! The three year horses (for instance), who ran against lamterra never proved something as 4 year old!
Added 1 year ago by guest, 0 points
the best ever
Added 1 year ago by guest, -1 points
Lammtarra was an undefeated Thoroughbred racehorse who won three Group One races in 1995 and was voted the Cartier Three-Year-Old European Champion Colt. He won the Epsom Derby in record time, the King George VI and Queen Elizabeth Stakes and the Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe more or less from the front . I also watched Shergar an amazing horse one of the best ever , just think Lammtarra was a wonderhorse , to win the Epsom Derby on his first run of the season and broke the track record was truly spectacular.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 4 points
I have seen every Derby winner since Psidium in 1961 and I can truthfully say that along with Sea Bird II, Shergar's win was simply jaw-dropping. I would definitely rate Shergar as one of the greatest Derby winners of all time. A truly brilliant racehorse who might have been equally brilliant at stud if he hadn't come to such a tragic end at the hands of the utterly detestable IRA.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 0 points
The only British horse that could maybe beat Lammtarra , but I doubt it
Added 2 years ago by guest, 0 points
Agree with carolanntee. However Shergar underated. His turn of foot was mind blowing. He was never extended. He deserves his place as number 4
Added 2 years ago by guest, 0 points
Shergar was in all honesty the quickest horse in the history of the sport. His turn of foot was frightening. He not only had the ability to win races but also had the ability to canter home a furlong out and still dominate races by 10 lengths, unbeleivable racehorse and in my opinion the 3rd greatest flat racehorse of all time.
Added 2 years ago by guest, 0 points
I totally agree with you, my friend, Shergar at his best was a helluva good horse and his annihilation of the 1981 Epsom Derby field will remain forever in the memory of all those who witnessed that scintillating victory.
Added 2 years ago by guest, 0 points
Should be number 1, have you ever seen his Derby romp. It was the greatest racing preformance in history. His King George and Irish Derby wins also were impossible to comprehend. Undoubtably the better than 24 of the 25 above. The only horse better than him was Sea Bird II and maybe Brigadier Gerrard. Anyone that says Secretariat was the best is an idiot.
Added 2 years ago by guest, -1 points
17.
Ruffian
this filly captured the hearts of millions and she won every race she was enterd in besides her last race that she lost her life for the love of racing
590 points - added 3 years ago by guest - 27 comments
Comments:
Good to see Orb carry her colors to victory in the KY Derby!
Added 15 days ago by guest, 7 points
How is Ruffian a sprinter?!?
Added 10 months ago by guest, -2 points
What's Ruffian doing at #21?!?! She deserves to be in the top 5! She won every race she was entered in, except the Great Match, where she broke down, she never even finished that race. If there was a race between Black Cavier, Ruffian, Zenyatta, and Rachel Alexandra, I believe Ruffian would win by at least a head, she would NEVER allow another horse to pass her, her tragic death is proof! These days, horses like Ruffian are always called slow just because most living people these days have never seen her race in real life! It's plain wrong! Why, Secretariat is #1 in this ranking, and his trainer himself said: "As God as my witness, she may be even better than Secretariat". If he said that, and if Secretariat is number one in this ranking, then that means that Ruffian is even better that Secretariat, I truly believe so!
Added 10 months ago by guest, 2 points
I agree with the previous post. And what about the Arc-winning filly Zarkava at #27? Wow!
Added 11 months ago by guest, 1 point
Anyone who watches his performance in Queen Anne at Ascot would say greatest ever.
Added 11 months ago by guest, -1 points
Arguably the greatest filly ever seen on a racetrack.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 7 points
Ruffian was by far and away the best female racehorse of all time and even secretariats trainer said to the press:"as god as my witness she may even be better than secretariat. I think she would have easily beat foolish pleasure if she hadnt broken down
Added 1 year ago by guest, 9 points
lets not ALL forget that she is the 1# female race horse the the USA .of the 20th Century. quoted from wikki
Added 1 year ago by guest, 2 points
the truth is she might have had the speed but they should have let her grow up, her legs were not develpoed enought and that made her too weak. poor horse. i saw the film too i ran out the room even though i knew what the outcome was going to be. poor poor horse.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 2 points
i have watched the film, nasty.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 1 point
Con't: I am not saying Black Caviar COULDN'T beat Ruffian beacuse she has also posted some incredible 6 furlong fractions, but I strongly feel it would have been a coin toss based on their chemistry on any given day. Best Regards!
Added 1 year ago by bigred, -23 points
And what is the basis for you stating that Black Caviar would have bested Ruffian over 6 furlongs? I don't think so! Ruffian CONSISTENTLY posted 6 furlong times between 1:08-3/5 and 1:09 in change! It would be extremely difficult to best those times anywhere...anyhow! BARING NONE...Ruffian eaisly suffices as one of the fastest "less than a mile" sprinters in thoroughbred history!
Added 1 year ago by bigred, 29 points
The mare currently racing in Australia, Black Caviar, would of given Ruffian a beating. As good as Ruffian was she would not get within 2 lengths of Black Caviar over 6 furlongs. She's currently 16 from 16
Added 1 year ago by guest, -30 points
At one mile or less, Zenyatta wouldn't have had a chance. Check out their times bewteen 5.5 and 8 furlongs & you too will agree. At 1-1/8 miles or better it would have been a coin toss between the two, but very few horses (even Secretariat) could have bested Ruffian at 6 or 7 furlongs.
Added 1 year ago by bigred, 3 points
Zenyatta would crush her. Who did she beat? Can you name one filly or mare she defeated? Zenyatta won the BCC and nearly captured it a second year while winning 19 of 20...with her only loss a head to the winning older male handicap eclipse award winner.....nuff said
Added 1 year ago by guest, -9 points
I tend to agree with you about the Foolish Pleasure match race but no one can say for sure what the results would have been. The issue with Ruffian is that her "blazing" times were posted for "less than a mile" distances. Her few 1-1/8 and 1-1/2 mile times (she never posted a 1-1/4 mile) were good but not spectacular by any means (such as Secretariat's amazing 1-1/4 & 1-1/2 mile times). Considering that the first 1/4 mile in the match race was run at blazing 22-1/5 time, I strongly feel that BOTH horses would have emptied their tanks after a mile, with the last 1/4 mile a turtle race. The winner would have been determined by who had a little more left in the tank with a colt typically the winner in such a case. However, I agree with you that Ruffian "refused" to be behind in a race which would have made this a coin toin toss at the wire. Ruffian was truely a great champion and one of the top 10 horses of all-time!
Added 1 year ago by bigred, 3 points
obviously ruffian would have beat foolishpleasure. anyone who knows ruffian knows once she is ahead she never let anyone by her and if she were to race todays fillies they would be left in dust and shes not overrated everyone knows that she is truly the queen of the track
Added 1 year ago by guest, 1 point
Truely one of the fastest horses ever over distances a mile or less. Unfortunately, her 1-1/8 mile or greater times simply aren't fast enough to earn her a place in the top 3 - 5 horses of all-time. One of my favorites and her remarkable 6 - 8 furlong speed could only be matched by a handful of horses. One of the saddest days ever in thoroughbred racing when her leg gave way in the match race against Foolish Pleasure.
Added 1 year ago by bigred, 1 point
I watched a movie on Ruffian and cried at the end because she died of a stupid broken leg!Her ranking should be first I placed a vote for this horse what will you do for the horse that died for a race! If Ruffian were alive today she would woop every racehorses butt! I still watch the movie up to the point of her dying and then stop the movie.I later got the breyer she truly was the best horse to set face on the earth!
Added 1 year ago by guest, 1 point
One of the most beautiful horses ever
Added 2 years ago by guest, 4 points
she is my fav she was a great horse best racing horse ever in the world i think she should be first !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Added 2 years ago by guest, 1 point
Here we go again...more shortsighted "overrated" claims. Ruffian was one of the fastest horses ever, who on several occassions posted 7 furlong fractions in less than 1:09!!!!!!!! A tragic iconic figure, I will forever remember her breathtaking runaway victories that averaged an incredible 8 lengths in margin, and her place on this top 10 list is absolutely undebatable.
Added 2 years ago by Dannykeith46, 12 points
Are you kidding me? Overrated? -.- More like underrated. This filly was a freak, broke or equaled a track or stakes record in almost all of her races. They didn't want to push her as a 2 year old and her trainer was considering the Travers if she didn't break down. R.I.P beautiful girl.
Added 2 years ago by guest, 10 points
I believe that she should be higher. She by far not the best but was a great little filly with a hella lot of heart. There was a few though that could match her
Added 2 years ago by guest, 2 points
She is NOT the most overrated horse ever - sorry you think that way. She never wanted to lose and broke those records with her own will and never whipped to win. She was being trained at the correct pace for a 2 year old - as a breeder and trainer I know that you can train any horse, but in order to have a true champion, the horse has to have the desire, the heart and the ability. Ruffian had that - she did not want a horse ahead of her. Due to her very short life and career, we were never allowed to see just what she could have done.
Added 2 years ago by guest, 5 points
Most overrated horse, ever. She never faced "open" competition of any type; not even outside her age. She set stakes records mostly, which were all RESTRICTED-AGE FEMALE. Her track-record equals were at sprints largely restricted to 2yo runners. This filly may have been brilliant and great, but doesn't truly have the solid proof to boot her above other females and - yikes - often touted as greater than the greatest males. Ruffian suffers from Martyr Syndrome - feel sorry for the fallen and inflate their reputations.
Added 2 years ago by guest, -18 points
She should be higher!! She was a true champion, no horse was good enough competitor for this filly!
Added 2 years ago by guest, 2 points
18.
Omaha
561 points - added 3 years ago by guest - 9 comments
Comments:
Pound for pound, clearly the best equine ever to be saddled up!!!
Added 4 months ago by guest, -18 points
From the sublime to the ridiculous. Omaha's supporters just might have seen him. Those of Eclipse, who raced from 1769 to 1771, haven't seen even photographs of him. Anyway, to name him "the maker of all the thoroughbreds..." is clearly inaccurate. Eclipse comes from the line of the Darley Arabian, who, with the Godolphin Arab and the Byerley Turk, were brought from the Middle East around four centuries ago and were mated with the colder blooded horses of Europe to found the modern Thoroughbred. What any of that has to do with this discussion, however, is difficult to imagine.
Added 1 year ago by guest, -3 points
eclipse, the horse that no one has mentioned is the maker of all the thoroughbreds all of you have mentioned and won every race he ran. which was 18 races. he was the first horse to be known to have a masive heart and ritiered to the stud because people were afraid to put there horses against him. i am sorry, everyone has a valid point but eclipse is the clear winner. if you dont beleive me then look him up on "thoroughbred hertiage" in google.
Added 1 year ago by guest, -1 points
i think you should look at some of the irish trained horses , flat racing and national hunt . sea the stars ,shergar , arkle , istabraq need i say more
Added 1 year ago by guest, -3 points
I have returned to this site some six months after giving up on it because common sense and logic had been removed from it. And what do I find? The discussion has been taken over by some of the oldest racing enthusiasts in existence. Omaha won his Triple Crown in 1935. If we say the age of reason is reached at 21 years, that means that his supporters are approaching their hundredth birthdays. All I can do is congratulate them on their exceptional powers of recollection.
Added 1 year ago by guest, -2 points
No, anyone who knows even a little about pedigree and performance would eliminate this from top ten consideration.
Added 1 year ago by guest, -2 points
Yes Omaha. Anyone who knows anything about horses would agree with Omaha's position!!
Added 1 year ago by guest, -5 points
Omaha ??? come on. Secretariat and Man o war, 1-2 all the others are way behind them. This is silly
Added 1 year ago by guest, 3 points
Burst from the gate....smooth in stride.....strong at finish. A complete horse at any length. 'Nuff said.
Added 1 year ago by guest, -2 points
19.
Brigadier Gerard
British racehorse only ever beaten once in 17 races and that was over 10 furlongs. Never beaten when racing at a mile.
556 points - added 3 years ago by guest - 7 comments
Comments:
Make no mistake about it Brigadier Gerard was a fanastic horse and a great favourite of mine. But what I saw Frankel achieve over the past 3 seasons convinces me that Frankel was superior to BG.
Added 5 months ago by guest, -2 points
Brigadier Gerard lost once at York, when he was reported by his jockey to be suffering from a heavy viral infection. Joe Mercer his regular jockey has said that if Frankel could win at York, he should be rated up there with the Brigadier, whom he always called the Big Fella. Well Frankel did win at York in a faster time than the Brigadier. But, of course, he did not have the Brigadier`s abilty to win at distances all the way from 6 furlongs out to a mile and a half, A relly great horse, perhaps under-rated here because he did not race at Kentucky.
Added 8 months ago by guest, 1 point
When Frankel wins 16 races then,and only then, can we talk about Frankel in the same breath as Brigadier Gerard.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 1 point
This horse was the best miler of all time without doubt, but he has just lost his crown to Frankel
Added 1 year ago by guest, 1 point
Brigadier Gerard and Tudor Minstrel were probably the greatest specialist milers ever seen in the British Isles.
Added 2 years ago by guest, 1 point
Certainly one of the greatest milers of all time and such was his undoubted brilliance that he could win at distances far in excess of his optimum trip.
Added 2 years ago by guest, 1 point
Seeming hiw he was given a rating of 144 and lost once in 17 races he should be at least 10th best of all time.
Added 2 years ago by Charles Olney, 1 point
20.
War Admiral
Triple crown winner and offspring of Man O' War
554 points - added 2 years ago by guest - 6 comments
Comments:
Brilliant horse but personally feel Seabiscuit was better. Despite the age difference and the race being run to War Admirals favourite conditions, Seabiscuit still beat War Admiral fair and square in the match race.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 2 points
I'm actually surprised that War Admiral isn't higher on the list. Perhaps people feel that the son of Man o' War shouldn't be so closely ranked, but War Admiral was an astonishing horse.
Added 1 year ago by Emerald01, 3 points
I say war admiral is better than seabiscuit. He was man o wars best colt i do belive
Added 1 year ago by guest, -3 points
Seabiscuit was good and considered better because he was not thought in the first place to be race horse material! Unlike War Admiral.
Added 1 year ago by guest, -1 points
Sorry Seabiscuit lovers. I know Seabiscuit won the great match race. But look at the record. War Admiral was 100 times the better horse. Yet Seabiscuit is ranked higher.
Added 2 years ago by guest, -2 points
Great horse,definatley not the best, Still great
Added 2 years ago by guest, 1 point
21.
Dancing Brave
550 points - added 3 years ago by guest - 12 comments
Comments:
A rating of 17 is about right for Dancing Brave. Good horse but not one of the all time greats.
Added 7 months ago by guest, 1 point
One way of comparing horses from different Continents and different epochs, is to consider the three American and three British Triple Crown races, along with the Breeder`s Cup and the King George VI as well as the Arc. These are probably amongst the 10 most important flat races in the world.
Speeds vary between the courses – the Kentucky Derby and the 2000 Guineas being generally fast races whilst the Derby and St Leger are slower. By awarding 10 points to the horse which showed the highest average speed over the years in each race, and so on down the years, you can develop a comparison Few horses cross the Atlantic. When the 2000 Guineas record holder Rock of Gibraltar did to enter the Breeder`s, he did not win.
Secretariat with unbeaten records in three Triple Crown races naturally emerges as the best ever with 30 points. Second equal with 26 would come Seattle Slew and Dancing Brave. Sea the Stars one of a handful of horses to match Secretariat`s speed on other courses would have 25.
Danedream the German filly, 2012 Arc winner and record holder is at 22 and Nijinsky is at 20. Galileo makes 18 and Northern Dancer thd great Canadian horse who has sired so many fine racehorses and Never Say Die St Leger and Derby winner 17. Man O` War would have scored higher if he had not run the same races as Secretariat, just fractionally slower. Dante the 1945 Epsom Derby record holder and Ribot French double Arc winner each make 15. Brigadier Gerard, Seabird 11 , Mill Reef and many other great horses that won a string of races also fare less wiell under this system, because on the day the races were slower.
No mathematical system is going to convince aficionados of another horse. But this does at leas suggest that Dancing Brave and Sea the Stars should be rated more highly
Added 7 months ago by guest, 2 points
Anyone who witnessed this great racehorse's performance when he won the 1986 Prix de l'arc de Triomphe could only conclude the Dancing Brave was, without doubt, a genuine contender for greatest racehorse of the 20th century. A superstar!
Added 8 months ago by guest, 1 point
Supersonic! One of the greates racehorses ever to race in Europe.
Added 11 months ago by guest, 3 points
Dancing Brave should be in the top 5 of all time a simply outstanding racing machine
his Arc win was breath taking
Added 1 year ago by guest, 1 point
Won the 1986 Prix de l'arc de Triomphe as if propelled from a rocket. On THAT performance would have beaten any racehorse.
Added 2 years ago by guest, 6 points
If you want to see finishing speed , watch Lammtarra on utube ( by the way first run of the season tn ''record time'')
Added 2 years ago by guest, 1 point
Gave the best ever performance in an Arc win after Sea Bird vanquishing one of the strongest fields with the blistering surge of amissile fired.Would certainly have won the Epsom Deby but for Starkey's waiting tactics .He faced better opposition than any great British middle-distance champion and posessed the greatest finishing speed ever by a British racehorse.Was alos devastating in the Guineas.He however could not relish soft going or stay beyond a mile and a half.To me on the day of the Arc the best European racehorse since Sea Bird .
Added 2 years ago by guest, 3 points
Yes,he SHOULD be in the top 10, at least.
Added 2 years ago by guest, 3 points
Tell me that you're kidding,jeepster! You will NEVER see a horse finish like this great champion did in the 1986 Prix de l'arc de Triomphe. I cannot believe that Dancing Brave isn't in the top 10 in this list.
Added 2 years ago by guest, 3 points
Good horse,but there are many better horses on this list.
Added 2 years ago by jeepster, 1 point
The best by far, just like ali
Added 2 years ago by guest, 3 points
22.
Damascus
548 points - added 2 years ago by guest - 2 comments
Comments:
Esteemed US racing writer and author Steve Haskin (BloodHorse.com, 14 July 2009): “Damascus ranks among the greatest horses in racing history, and certainly among the most durable horses ever seen. … the most underrated horse of all time.”
Added 4 months ago by guest, 15 points
Come on! Damascus deserves to be rated much higher than this. He won against the best of his era at 2, 3 and 4. And it was some era: his rivalry with Dr. Fager and Buckpasser is right up there in US racing lore. His last race, when he broke down and had to be eased while attempting to win his second Jockey Club Gold Cup, was the only time he finished out of a place. He retired with a record of 32 – 21-7-3 and $1,176,781 in earnings. Having won three of his four starts as a juvenile, including the Remsen, he went on to have a 3yo campaign that ranks him with the elite of the elite, among his wins the Belmont, Preakness, Jockey Club Gold Cup, Woodward (beating Dr. Fager and Buckpasser by 10 len), Aqueduct Hcp (as top weight against older horses), Travers (by 22 len), American Derby, Dwyer, Bay Shore, etc. His $817,941 earnings as a 3yo stood as the sophomore record until broken by Secretariat. He was both US Champion Three-Year-Old Colt and US Horse of the Year in 1967. A truly fabulous racehorse!
Added 4 months ago by guest, 19 points
23.
Northern Dancer
544 points - added 4 years ago by arollison - 6 comments
Comments:
If you mean Native Dancer who is in the dams pedigree, I don't think it should really matter. Anyway, Northern Dancer a stunning horse, I have a book of him. Just love this horse!!
Added 1 month ago by guest, 0 points
How could Northern Dancer be responsible for Ruffian breaking her leg when he is not in her pedigree???
Added 7 months ago by guest, 9 points
I saw northern dancers halter!!!! In person it was soo cool
Added 1 year ago by guest, 0 points
northan dancer is the reason ruffian bropke her leg. she sould never have been breed because of the soft bone gene. more fool you. :( millions cryed because of the breeder. i have nothing left to say.
Added 1 year ago by guest, -2 points
Horse was tough as nails, Canada's greatest ever
Added 2 years ago by guest, 0 points
Top sire of the 20th century
Added 2 years ago by guest, 0 points
24.
Tudor Minstrel
536 points - added 3 years ago by guest - 5 comments
Comments:
One of the best milers ever seen in Europe.
Added 7 months ago by guest, 1 point
A real superstar miler. Unquestionably one of the greatest racehorses ever to grace a racetrack.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 0 points
People fail to realise the fact that because horses such as Tudor Minstrel and Man O' War raced in the 1930s and 1940s, they are still regarded as truly great thoroughbreds. Racetracks, and training methods may have changed a great deal in 80 years,but great horses still appear in every era and Tudor Minstrel and Man O'War are no exeptions.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 0 points
Probably the greatest miler to race in Europe in the Twentieth Century,with Brigadier Gerard not far behind.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 1 point
Brilliant racehorse and regarded by many knowledgeable pundits as one of the greatest European milers.
Added 2 years ago by guest, 1 point
25.
Count Fleet
530 points - added 3 years ago by guest - 5 comments
Comments:
Ranked #5 on The Blood-Horse magazine’s Top 100 U.S. Racehorses of the 20th Century, behind only Man o’ War, Secretariat, Citation and Kelso. That’s rarefied company – the elite of the elite.
Added 8 days ago by guest, 5 points
Count Fleet was America’s Champion Two-Year-Old Colt of 1942, winning 10 of 15 starts (4 seconds, 1 third). He won the Champagne (8f) at Belmont by six lengths in 1:34 4/5 – a stakes and track record and the fastest mile by a juvenile to that time. His Champagne time would remain unchallenged for 34 years until surpassed by Seattle Slew. He then won the Pimlico Futurity (8.5f) by five lengths in equal track record time, won Pimlico’s Walden (8.5f) by 30 lengths and was assigned an unprecedented 132 lbs in the Experimental Free Handicap. In six starts at three he was not only undefeated, he was untouchable. He won the KY Derby by three lengths, the Preakness by eight and the Belmont by 25. This would remain the record winning margin in the Belmont until Secretariat 30 years later. Count Fleet was named Champion Three-Year-Old Colt and Horse of the Year in 1943, receiving 135 of the 143 votes for the sport’s ultimate honor.
Added 10 days ago by guest, 8 points
“He was a kind of a freak horse. He could do anything. He could go to the front, come [from] behind, and run all day. Run in the mud. It didn’t make any difference.” - Count Fleet’s jockey, Johnny Longden, on ESPN’s Jewels of the Triple Crown, uploaded to YouTube 4 Aug 2006.
Added 10 days ago by guest, 2 points
Sham, Desert Orchid, and Yeats are better than Count Fleet? Give me a break.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 3 points
#30....no way! Count Fleet is one of the fastest and under rated horses of all-time. On a bad day, should at least be in the top 20.
Added 2 years ago by Dannykeith46, 5 points
26.
Cigar
16 consecutive wins from age 4 to age 6. Earned $9,999,813 in purses
526 points - added 3 years ago by guest - 4 comments
Comments:
He was the only two-time winner of U.S. horse racing’s ultimate accolade, Horse of the Year, in the 1990’s (’95 and ’96) – so his claim to the title “U.S. Horse of the 1990’s” is well merited.
Added 25 days ago by guest, 2 points
This magnificent thoroughbred, the epitome of class and courage, was ranked #18 in The Blood-Horse magazine’s Top 100 U.S. Racehorses of the 20th century. As such he was the highest ranked horse that raced in the 1990's, giving rise to the unofficial (but well deserved) title, the Horse of the Decade.
Added 25 days ago by guest, 3 points
One of the greatest although i didnt like the owners silks
Added 1 year ago by guest, 0 points
Seattle Slew Offspring.
Added 2 years ago by guest, 0 points
27.
Zarkava
525 points - added 3 years ago by guest - 5 comments
Comments:
I don't know about her being clear of Black Caviar but having both Arcs there's no doubt in my mind she would have beaten Sea The Stars. Probably one of the most underrated fillies of all time
Added 9 months ago by guest, 4 points
Agree with previous comment, Zarkava should be streets clear of Black Caviar.
Added 11 months ago by guest, 23 points
How can Black Caviar be at #10 and Zarkava at #27? Jeeeze! To be sure Zarkava raced only at two and three, but she won all seven of her starts (five G1s and one G3) including winning the Arc as a three-year-old filly. There's an immeasurable qualitative difference between winning fraudulent G1s in Australia and genuine G1s against the best in Europe.
Added 11 months ago by guest, 40 points
Zarkava is the second greatest female horse of all time. Only Zenyatta betters this incredible filly.
Disgrace that she is not top 10.
Added 2 years ago by guest, 4 points
Superb filly.
Added 2 years ago by guest, 9 points
28.
Curlin
Twice Horse of the Year, winner of Belmont, BC Classic 07, Dubai world Cup, and more grade I races - campaigning two years as 3 and 4-year old.
522 points - added 3 years ago by guest - 3 comments
Comments:
A favorite of my heart, It was so sweet to see the amazing Rachel Alexandria with her first foal, sired by Curlin.
Added 1 year ago by Emerald01, 0 points
Richest horse in america!!!!! Although that doesnt mean much cuz purse money changes with time
Added 1 year ago by guest, 0 points
great horse, seen him race live twice, including at the jockey club gold cup to become north america first 10 million dollar man. however, he is not a belmont winner, he was runner up to rags to riches, a great filly. he did win the preakness though that year.
Added 2 years ago by guest, 0 points
29.
Seabiscuit
A well known horse about which a modern movie was made. Seabiscuit held many track records and was known as one of the fastest horses ever.
519 points - added 4 years ago by arollison - 15 comments
Comments:
He usually carried more weight than any other horse he was racing against, and still won frequently, including some very impressive races. Seabiscuit had a true racing heart. I would rank him in at least in the top 5, I dont know why he is so low on this list, maybe people have just forgotten about how great he was.
Added 2 months ago by guest, -1 points
Seabiscuit is one of, if not the greatest racehorse ever. He overcame poor training from his early years, and beat several serious injuries. He beat war admiral, who was considered the best racehorse back then. He lost the santa anita twice due to jockey error, and finally won it at age 7. What other horse has done as much in their racing career?
Added 2 months ago by guest, -1 points
seabiscuit is the greatest horse that ever lived he proved that nothing would get in his way he has the heart to race and the pasion and speed to go with it nothing could stop him nor even war admiral i bet he could have given man o' war a run for his money sea biscuit should have been number one
Added 5 months ago by guest, -1 points
You have to be kiding I would rank him at 3 or 4. He lost THIRTY FIVE times and won only twice as a three and two year old, but he had bad ower, bad Jokey and everything. With the right ones and the right track, he was unbetable!
Added 1 year ago by guest, 4 points
Are you kidding me? Sure, Biscuit didn't win however many races, but that doesn't matter. A quality horse has the heart, and The Biscuit had the heart. In his 2nd year he ran 35 races. That is dangerously to many for a horse that young. He was never to race again but he made a comeback and won the Santa Anita
Added 1 year ago by guest, 5 points
totally mishandled as a 2 yr old....look what he did once he got better training and handling
Added 1 year ago by lyoness6, 4 points
The Biscuit is by far the best horse out there. Just think what he could have done at age 2 and 3 if he had been trained right. I think the Biscuit could have taken any horse on. He had heart and would not back down and thats what gets you the win!
Added 1 year ago by guest, 5 points
The biscuit will always top my list. What other horse on this list could have rehabbed from a "career ending" injury to set the record in the mile and a quarter at the age of 7 !! The answer, not a single one! His win over War admiral BY 4 LENGTHS was on the Admiral's home turf and at the Admirals optimum distance. The Biscuit would have beat him any time they raced. No horse should be judged by a stupid trainer and a stupid owner. When those things were corrected, he could have beaten any horse that ever lived - by the record!
Added 1 year ago by guest, 5 points
Don't get me wrong Seabiscuit's story is inspirational and great. But, you have to be realistic about the horses ability. He was very good on his day but I wouldn't fancy this horse against hardly any of the horses on this list. If i'm honest I would definately bet on War Admiral if they were to race again. I love Seabiscuit but this list is about the quality of the horse not how popular it was.
Added 2 years ago by guest, -3 points
Seabiscuit is just the subject of an inspirational story and doesn't deserve to be on this list. He won only 5 of 35 races as a two year old -thereafter he rarely won in mostly West Coast races off the beaten track.
Added 2 years ago by guest, -2 points
Seabiscuit has history with him. He is a real inspiration. No other horse will have a heart like Seabiscuit.
Added 2 years ago by guest, 3 points
Also a great horse. His first year as a two-three year old he ran THIRTY FIVE times and won only twice. He was not well trained and a second thought. Once in the right hands he was incredible. He ran at the last minute, ran injured, always carried by far the most weight, lost several times by jockey error, but was always in there. He set many records on many tracks in many areas of the country. His race with the GREAT War Admiral is renowned and needs no further detail. An incredible horse with a great heart.
Added 2 years ago by budoinst, 3 points
with the right training he was unbeatable. just a great horse with lots of heart. he should be #1 with Man O WAR #2
Added 2 years ago by guest, 4 points
True he may be fast but no consistency. And consistency is what gets you places in the horse racing world
Added 2 years ago by guest, -5 points
your kidding right? he shouldnt be in the top 100. lost more races than half this list combined - bad job
Added 2 years ago by guest, -5 points
30.
Lammtarra
514 points - added 3 years ago by guest - 8 comments
Comments:
Are my eyes deceiving me? Lammtarra at #41? LAMMTARRA??? Some posters here suggest his short career (only four starts) prevents him from higher consideration. Well surely that depends on what he did in those four starts. And this is what he did: Won his only start as a two-year-old in the 7f Listed Washington Singer Stakes at Newbury. More than 300 days later, in his first start as a three-year-old, he won the G1 Epsom Derby in race record time that stood for 15 years and has only been bettered once. Next he won the G1 King George VI and Queen Elizabeth Stakes, Britain’s most prestigious mile-and-a-half contest for three-year-olds and up. And he concluded his three-year-old season, and his career, by winning the G1 Prix de l’Arc de Triomphe against Europe’s crème de la crème. Why does this not entitle Lammtarra to a much higher rating here than #41? A short career, yes. But there are quite a few horses rated above him here who did not achieve in longer careers anything comparable to what Lammtarra did in his short career.
Added 8 months ago by guest, 25 points
could be a good/great horse...who knows...4 races do not make a career...
Added 1 year ago by lyoness6, -8 points
Obviously a top class horse, but 4 races is not enough to rate him among the very best. I suspect that his Arab connections were more interested in his stud value as an unbeaten thoroughbred. Rated far too high on this list ,should be mid 40's.
Added 1 year ago by guest, -4 points
take a look at his times , the derby stands out being his FIRST run of the season, Are you saying Swain was not a top class horse ?
Added 1 year ago by guest, 14 points
Good horse but never ran against a strong opposition!
Added 1 year ago by guest, -10 points
Number one in my opionion , won the Derby with his first run of the season , in record time !
Added 2 years ago by guest, 4 points
Set the course record after winning the Epsom Derby, which was only bettered last year when Workforce won . Considering Lammtarra had such limited racing experience he must have been a brilliant racehorse, opposition notwithstanding.
Added 2 years ago by guest, 8 points
Brilliant. Absolutley brilliant 4 wins from 4 starts and just magnificent. Top 20 at least.
Added 2 years ago by guest, 14 points
31.
Buckpasser
511 points - added 2 years ago by guest -
32.
Round Table
497 points - added 2 years ago by guest - 2 comments
Comments:
Retired in 1959 as the richest thoroughbred of all time with earnings of $1,749,869 and although best remembered for his dominance on grass (US Champion Turf Horse in three successive years) he also won at the highest level, in record times, on dirt. Had he better handled off tracks he would have been in the Top 10 of all time.
Added 4 months ago by guest, 5 points
How can Round Table be rated so low? He won at the highest level every year he raced (2 thru 5) compiling a 66 – 43-8-5 record, became only the third American thoroughbred to top $1 million in earnings ($1.75 million), set or equaled 14 track records and was US Champion Turf Horse in three consecutive years and Champion Turf Horse, Champion Male Handicap Horse and Horse of the Year in 1958. This is the record of a genuine champion!
Added 4 months ago by guest, 19 points
33.
Sir Ivor
496 points - added 3 years ago by guest - 7 comments
Comments:
There are far better horses than Sir Ivor lower down this list. Sir Ivor was a good horse,but too highly rated here, IMO.
Added 4 months ago by guest, -1 points
Piggott rated Sir Ivor his best, I wouldn't argue with that, but the trouble was Sir Ivor was beaten far too often for my liking.
Added 7 months ago by guest, 0 points
Lester Piggott quoted in The Guardian 28 May 2011: "I thought Sir Ivor was probably the best of mine [Derby mounts]. … He wasn't a mile-and-a-half horse but he had this terrific turn of foot. They were all great but I think he was the best.”
Added 7 months ago by guest, 14 points
Never herd of him but my cats name was ivor!:)
Added 1 year ago by guest, -7 points
When Sir Ivor swept past Connaught with such incredible acceleration to win the 1968 Derby I just could not see him ever being beaten, but he seemed to lose his form and only regained his former brilliance when annihilating the American horses in the Washington D.C International at Laurel Park. At his best Sir Ivor was a truly brilliant racehorse,of that there can be no doubt.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 11 points
Upto 10 furlongs may have conquered the likes of Mill Reef and Nijisnky.Sir Ivor produced devastating finishing speed to win the Guineas and Derby.He capped a hard season by winning the Washington International in 1968 to prove he was a true great.Not a true stayer ,which he was not bred for.He faced very high-class opposition i n his year like Petingo,Royal Palace,Fort Marcy etc.
Added 2 years ago by guest, 9 points
Piggott always said he was the best horse he ever rode. Not a bad judge in my opinion.
I certainly think Sir Ivor's turn of foot was something to behold.
Added 2 years ago by guest, 10 points
34.
Phar Lap
494 points - added 4 years ago by arollison - 46 comments
Comments:
To the poster who keeps saying he/she can’t believe how far down this list Phar Lap is (currently, 5/16/13, #29), there is no mystery to it. Phar Lap has been on this list for four years and during that time visitors to the site have voted him … #29. Get over it!
Added 9 days ago by guest, 4 points
How does the OPINION of one individual who saw Phar Lap race at Agua Caliente improve his racing record or his standing relative to other horses? It is a non sequitur for you to suggest that because Dunne saw PL “in the flesh” his OPINION should prevail over those of others quite capable of assessing PL’s race record and viewing the Agua Caliente race on YouTube and, cumulatively, rendering a different OPINION.
Added 17 days ago by guest, 12 points
I wonder how many of the other "distinguished american" experts actually saw Phar Lap in the flesh. Im not saying Phar Lap is better then Sec, Man o war or any other horse , all im saying is i cant believe how far down this list he is. The truth is Phar Laps not an american but if he was he would be further up this list.
Added 1 month ago by guest, -9 points
Francis Dunne’s opinion has to be respected, but his is one expert’s view. When seven other distinguished American horse racing experts voted in 1999 to determine Blood-Horse magazine’s Top 100 U.S. Racehorses of the 20th Century, they ranked Phar Lap #22.
Added 1 month ago by guest, 3 points
I cant believe how far down this list Phar Lap is, we all know he was a late mature and got better with age, winning his last 32 from 35 races with big weights. He was the sole reason they changed the weight for age rule, he was also given a timeform rating of 141. If you watch his last race in america the Agua Caliente handicap he wins easily after a slow start and running around the field winning in a record time which was his first on a dirt track, also the track wasnt fast that day and none of the other horses came any where near a track record. If you watch the race on you tube you will see that he runs very wide and with a better run race could have knocked seconds off his time. Bill Nack asked New York stewart Francis Dunne "who was the greatest racehorse you've ever seen, Man o' War or Secretariat ?" "Neither" said Dunne. "I saw Phar Lap". I think the best evidence for Phar Lap is that his owner traveled him over seas which was unheard of in those days ,you wouldnt risk that unless he was running some serious times.
Added 1 month ago by guest, -10 points
I love this gelding!! Harry wasn't a fellow who took to easy at things and Phar Lap was worked good alright. And all that worked paid off, I am a bit upset that Phar Lap is 24th. He should be way, way up above. He was not slow. He was only slow at the beginning when he did not click into place and when he did click into place, he was an absolute gun. Phar Lap WAS something special and heck, he would've been all the way back then. To go all that way, he sure set a unbreakable thing. He was simply a horse who had been there and done that from what I have heard of him.
Added 1 month ago by guest, -1 points
Pharlap is the greatest. All the horse above DIDN'T carry the weight Pharlap did NO HORSE not even Sec, Ruffian, If panel is hang up on times lets see them carry the weight Pharlap did. I you million dollars there would be no breaking records.
Added 2 months ago by guest, -13 points
slow and overrated.
Added 7 months ago by guest, 2 points
Absolute giant of the turf who was almost unbeatable as a mature horse. There is not a single horse in this list who who would have beaten him more than they were beaten by him. They didn't poison him for nothing !!
Added 8 months ago by guest, -7 points
Overrated way beyond his relative ability.
Added 9 months ago by guest, -7 points
If there is one Australasian horse who qualifies for inclusion in the Top 50 thoroughbreds of all time, worldwide, it is Phar Lap. Currently (8 July '12) this list has Black Caviar at #14 and Phar Lap at #15. That's truly absurd and reflects that many people voting here must be doing so based on uninformed hype rather than on rational assessment of the respective horses’ racing records.
Added 10 months ago by guest, 41 points
Phar Lap was good, but there have been better, most of which are listed above.
Added 10 months ago by guest, 5 points
How would this joker below know?
Were you around in the late 1920's? Frankel is amazing but why are you comparing him to a horse who raced during the 20's and 30's?
Added 10 months ago by guest, -5 points
Another horse that has been hyped-up. Would never have been able to cope with the modern thoroughbred. Probably top 30 at best. Frankel would have galloped him into the ground. Phar Lap was nothing special.
Added 11 months ago by guest, -2 points
Phar Lap should be in the top five and in no particular order as no one can truly argue the greatest. Let's just say the top five are the one's most unique, achieved things no other horse before or since has done, and represented the true pinnacle of performance on the track. If it were up to me the greatest were: Phar Lap; Ribot; Man o War; Secretariat; Sea Bird II and Ruffian, have to have a lady in the group. Hopefully this is a group worthy of being together with no focus or proof as to whom might be the greatest of all. Let's just say that this group, collectively deserves to be in the top five plus a mare.
Added 11 months ago by guest, -8 points
By any objective reading of their records Phar Lap was an immeasurably better horse than the grossly overrated Black Caviar and thus has to rate well ahead of her on any list of greatest horses. This is obscene, a perversion of logic and reason, for her to be rated ahead of him on this list.
Added 11 months ago by guest, 31 points
Would have beaten any horse on this list more often than he was beaten. A definite top 3 horse. Virtually unbeatable in his prime.
Added 11 months ago by guest, -10 points
I also feel that Phar Lap should be a bit higher on the list. It is a terrible shame that he was killed before he could race in the U.S.
Added 1 year ago by Emerald01, -1 points
How many horses rated (incorrectly) above Phar Lap here travelled 10,000 miles by ship, 1000 miles by road and then won the Worlds Richest Race carrying top weight in track record time on a foreign racing surface (dirt) for the first time off a very limited preparation and with a split hoof ? It's hardly believable how good this horse was. He won races on ALL 4 days of the world famous Flemington spring carnival incl the nations most iconic race the Melbourne Cup. 4 starts in a week for you guessed it - 4 wins. Equine freak
Added 1 year ago by guest, -5 points
Phar lap should be much higher on the list
Added 1 year ago by guest, 0 points
from a mile on Frankel would be coughing and spluttering as he ate Phar Lap's dust. One horse has 'done it' and one horse still has it all to do
Added 1 year ago by guest, 4 points
In a 6 - 9 furlong race, Frankel would most likely best Phar Lap beacuse he is obvioulsy the faster "sprinter". Until Frankel proves he can run strong at distances greater than 9 furlongs, I agree you simply CANNOT rate Frankel ahead of Phar Lap.
Added 1 year ago by bigred, 3 points
Difficult to compare all the great horses of different eras but Pharlap is the biggest freak of them all. Who is to say who is the best but if you were to pick a horse, against all the horses listed here in any race, capable of missing the start and rounding the whole field and still winning running wide with ears pricked it would have to be Phar lap. A lot of the comments are about records , times etc... Phar Lap was at a completely different level altogether where handicappers put the weights on to stop him like trains. Black Caviar for example might have lengths on Frankel but she isn't even in the ball park of Par Lap and Frankel , based Phar laps deeds, Phar lap would beat him and have a photo session by the time Frankel got to the winning post!!
It is hard to compare different champions of different eras but with horse racing I would be clear and have no doubt, if I had to back a horse in this field to save my life by winning it would unwaiveringly be Phar lap
Added 1 year ago by guest, 1 point
Took on and beat allcomers whilst giving them weight. Won all the big races and won over a wide range of distances. Raced in and won at the top level in 4 consecutive years before his career and life was cruelly taken when in his prime. Numero Uno
Added 1 year ago by guest, -7 points
If Phar Lap had been restricted to WFA or set weights races he would have won 40 - 50 races in a row. They say weight stops trains well it only stopped Phar Lap once, the 1931 Melb Cup, when everybody except his greedy owner wanted him to be scratched. It was to be his only unplaced run from his last 35 starts, which incl 32 wins. His next race start was to be his last. He won the worlds richest race at his first time on dirt, with a split hoof and breaking the track record in the process. He was than poisoned by illegal bookies who stood to lose thousands as he was essentially unbeatable. What a horse.
Added 1 year ago by guest, 0 points
Phar Lap was a freak and won his only start in North America in what was the world's richest race at the time and he did it in track record time at his 1 and only start on dirt. Enough said !
Added 1 year ago by guest, -6 points
Phar Lap should sit alongside Secretariat as 2 of the greatest equine athletes to have ever walked onto a racetrack.
Added 1 year ago by guest, -7 points
Phar Lap 1st......daylight 2nd !!
Added 1 year ago by guest, -5 points
There is no doubt Phar Lap should be up for consideration as the greatest racehorse of all time. Whilst I conceed Secretariat was a genuine champion what does his world record times have to do with it......Do these fools understand that ONLY North America raced on dirt at this time ??? So these so called world record times would be better called North American records !! That puts it a little more in perspective doesn't it ?
Added 1 year ago by guest, -7 points
Phar Lap won 32 of his last 35 starts career starts (with two 2nds). In this period he won the best 2 Derby's in Australia, Australia's greatest race the Melbourne Cup, twice won the WFA Championship of Australasia in the Cox Plate and he won the Agua Caliente Hcp, which at the time was the world's richest race at his last racetrack appearance. He won many other big races in this period at distances ranging from 1400m - 3600m. It should be noted his Melbourne Cup (3200m) win came 3 days after winning the Melbourne Stks (now called Mackinnon Stks - 2000m) on Derby Day. He won again 2 days later on Oaks Day in the Linlithgow Stks (1600m) and then again 2 days later in the CB Fisher Plate (2400m). Those 4 wins, 1 on each day of the world famous Flemington Spring Carnival, will never ever be done again. It will never even be attempted again. His devastating win in the Agua Caliente Hcp, his 1st and only start on dirt, where he raced wide and circled the field in the middle stages before going on to win by 2l, with a cracked hoof, was to be his last. It became apparent to everybody he was virtually unbeatable and thus he was tragically poisoned in suspicious circumstances, whilst stabled at Menlo Park near San Francisco. A true champion and legend of the turf.......
Added 1 year ago by guest, 3 points
NO HE ISN'T ,AND NO WE DON'T!
Added 1 year ago by guest, -2 points
Pharlap is number one we all know that!!!
Added 1 year ago by guest, -5 points
great horse...sad end....happens much too often..ie ruffian , barbaro, landaluce, go for wand, pine island, and so many others....this one esp cruel because it may have been deliberate..
Added 1 year ago by lyoness6, 2 points
The guy who wrote that some of the horses in the top 10 in this list shouldn't be in the top 50 obviously knows absolutely nothing about thoroughbred racing and should stick to his area of expertise: Jackass racing!
Added 1 year ago by guest, 0 points
A long time steward in New York was once asked who was the best he had ever seen, Man O War or Secretariat? He replied neither, I saw Phar Lap in the flesh!!! Not for his death in America, he would have won every race he contested in the US.
Added 1 year ago by guest, -1 points
Would have shown Secretariat who was the boss and no mistake.
Added 2 years ago by guest, -13 points
New Zealand Bred Australian Champion! Beat the best in the USA and Australia. Should easily be in the Top Ten! While best remembered for his wins in the Melbourne Cup and Agua Caliente Handicap, some say his greatest win was in the 1931 Futurity Stakes, a seven furlong(1400m) race run on a very heavy track. That day Phar Lap carried 10st 3lbs (65kg) and came from last to win against a top sprint field. His 1930 spring carnival form was astounding, as he followed success in the W.S. Cox Plate with wins on all four days of the Flemington Carnival
01.11.1930 Melbourne Stakes 1ST
WFA 1 1/4 miles(2000m) Flemington
04.11.1930 Melbourne Cup 1ST
Handicap 2 miles(3200m) Flemington
06.11.1930 Linlithgow Stakes 1ST
WFA 1 mile(1600m) Flemington
08.11.1930 CB Fisher Plate 1ST
WFA 1 1/2 miles(2400m) Flemington
The effortless win that week in the Melbourne Cup he carried 9st 12lbs (62.5kg).
Race Record: 51 Starts 37 Wins 3 Seconds 2 Thirds