TOP 20 HARRY POTTER PLOT HOLES

as far as fred and George keeping an eye on him its not like they were in different houses. they hung out a lot especially with harry and the twins being on the quidditch team and ron being harry's best friend. they were around eachother. seems more than over bearing to pick up the map to watch him all the time. and im sure that's not what mrs Weasley meant by "keep an eye out for your brother"

I know right why wouldn't they have notice the random kid following him around every where do they just not care about him

The twins were ok with another boy sleeping with Ron and didn't bring it up because he's their brother and will love him anyway. They can't possibly know everyone's name two years below them

It is likely that the twins, whenever checking the map would see a jumble of names if ever looking at the boys dormitories as they are a multi story tower and it would be easy to assume that the name peter pettigrew was a member of another year. And ron rarely took his rat around the castle with him.

The twins gave Harry in his third year the map because they no longer needed it, so they probably had memorized it. They had it since their first year, and would be in their third when Ron started his first year. So they have had years to memorize it, what if they had just memorized it before Ron first year, and just did not use it because well... they memorized it. They have no reason to use it. Maybe because they did not use it the would have not seen Peter on the map, but Remus did because he used the map while Peter was actually on Hogwarts grounds, so he would end up seeing his name. Does that make sense?

@previous comment well, except that he does show up on the map. It's why Lupin rushed to go after them. He saw "Peter" on the map going into the tunnel... unless only other original Marauders could see other Marauders on the map... but that's honestly a HUGE leap to make.

Peter knew about the map.He was part of the group who made it( Sirius,Remus,James and himself).So he would have known about it.Maybe he found a way for his name to not appear on the map,just in case someone figured out how to use it?For Scabbers name not on the map because of that,the map may only show the students and teachers names.So there would be no reason for it to be weird that Scabbers name was not there.

Maybe the map as linked to the bloodlines of it's creators and only they could see the others marauders.

That is true, even if they never really checked the map for Ron, couldn't they have spotted Peter Pettigrew while scanning the map, or couldn't it have caught their eye? Also, that's BS about them thinking that Peter was another student, Sirius Black was infamous for his betrayal of the Potters, yes, but he was also infamous for the MURDER of Peter Pettigrew! They are three years older than Ron, so would have been 4-5 years old back then, when the Potters were murdered and considering their habit of eavesdropping and pranks, they would have heard Peter's name sooner or later. Especially when Harry turned 11, there was a lot of talk about the "Savior" returning and so it would have stirred up conversation about Sirius, Peter, and the Potters. It is true, that their parents could have simply not talked about it, but they would have gone to Diagon Alley to get their books and would have at least heard something about it.

tbh I don't think either of them would have felt like pulling out the map in the middle of the night to make sure Ron was in bed. They would only have used it when they needed it, and would then only make sure the coast was clear for them to sneak around. They aren't the most brotherly of brothers.

Maybe they just assumed Peter Pettigrew was another Gryffondor and they didn't think anything of it

To all the people saying they only knew Peter Pettigrew as Scabbers...why did Harry see Peter Pettigrew then? Personally, I believe this is the only plot hole that there is not an answer for!

F & G definitely would have thought that Peter was just another roommate. They never asked Ron about Dean, who must have been around Ron a lot of the time.

To those people saying that Hogwarts is sooo crowded...there were at MOST 280 students total. I mean think about it, in all of Gryffindor, there are only 5 guys in Harry's year! do the math.

One small think I would add is that Scabbers was not always Rons' rat. In the book, Scabbers was given to Ron after Percy was bought an owl (and new robes) after becoming a prefect during Ron and Harry's first year. Presumably, Scabbers could have been seen in or around Percy's room prior to the start of the series. As many comments suggest that is not in the nature of the twins to check on their younger brother; might it have been in their nature to check on their older brother (perhaps to plan a prank) during the first year?

To the people who keep saying that the twins wouldn't have ever checked up on Ron, keep in mind that Ron is Harry Potter's best friend, and that they are well known for sneaking out of bed. Think to 1st year when they get all the hassle for the dragon incident. Also with everything that happens to and around Harry and Ron, you think they wouldn't be looking 2nd year to try and find out about the Heir of Slytherin, or 3rd year with Sirius? It does take them a bit to give it to him that year after all. Beyond that, the sorting at the beginning of the year ensures that they know more or less who is sorted. With this being Harry Potter's dorm, they'd notice the students living there. There's only 5, not hard to remember.

I think that this plot hole has already been explained pretty well so I just want to comment the second to last comment: How could no-one create something similar to the Marauder's Map? Because not only were the Marauder's clever, they came up with the orginial idea to make the map and never told anyone, thus making it hard for others to do the same since they'd never thought of it.

I think there was probably so many people in Hogwarts and crowded together, it was really hard to see anyone. They probably used the map when they were sneaking around and Filch was the only one in the halls. Or maybe they thought Peter was a roommate.

While i think it's definitely an issue that Fred and George never noticed Peter, I think the biggest problem is - if this magic existed and could be wielded by a few students - how on earth could dumbledore, none of the teachers or the ministry of magic create something similar? And in that case, how would anyone be able to hide anywhere? Or be able to fool anyone with a polyjuice potion or animagus or the like?

hardly anyone had heard of Peter Pettigrew. McGonagall has to explain to adult wizards (who would've seen it in the news at the time) who exactly he was. How would Fred and George know?

I agree with the person who pointed out the twins said they didn't need it anymore since they knew all the passages. But anyway, you clearly don't understand the characters of Fred and George at all. (Or teenage brothers for that matter). No, they would not have pulled out the map to check on their little brother. As for whipping out the map to check on him while he was sleeping- are you kidding???

did anybody ever think that since peter was in on creating the map that it wouldnt show him especially since they all were reffered to in their animagus forms

They assumed it was a child in bed next to Ron but was sleep walking, honestly check JKRs website or the interview she gave mugglenet.com

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet, but when Fred and George hand the map to Harry, they say they don't need it for they already know all the secret passages and stuff, so what leads us to think the even used it? Besides since they used it for the secret passages, they'd only be looking for Filch. I read a comment about them taking the map to their house, correct me if wrong but the map was intended to show just Hogwarts, not the place where the map was at layout.

readers commonly forget that there are ghosts in these books. since peter was assumed dead, could they not have thought he was simply a ghost lingering around but too afraid to show himself? i mean "everyone" supposedly knew how he died and all that was left was his finger, who knows? the boys may have even tried to rouse peter's spirit thinking he was a ghost and just wouldn't reveal himself so they discarded the fact after said failed attempt. it's a book, you're supposed to use your "imagination."

They didn't know who Peter Pettigrew was and they wouldn't have cared, and not bothered really checking up on Ron. Remember Harry only knew who Peter was because he learned it earlier, Fred and George weren't there.

even if they were in bunk beds ron and pettigrew would still have appeared on top of each other on the map a lot of the time

maybe they were intended to be in bunk beds? so maybe fred and george just thought peter was another kid on the top bunk or the bottom bunk

When one is out marauding through the castle you have more important things to worry about than what's going on in your idiot brother's room. Look at how Harry uses it. The Map is too big and complex to take in all its information at once and they wouldn't've whipped it out just to see if Ron's up in his room, anyone could've seen what they were up to. It was only when he was far from Hogwarts and missing one person in partucular that Harry thought of taking it out and checking to see if Ginny was okay. The twins wouldn't have had that kind of quiet time on their hands to say nothing of their lack of interest in what Ron was up to.

easy, they thought he was gay with some guy named Peter & wanted to avoid an awkward conversation.

Fred and George say to Ron that they have been trying to deny that he is related to them for years, I think this shows exactly how un-parental they are. Why would they have bothered looking exactly at Rons dorms.. When they themselves share the same common room which is also only accessible to gryffindors. They used the map for sneaking around other parts of the HUGE castle where there are HUNDREDS of students and they also said they had it pretty much memorised by the time they gave it to harry.

Do you really think that they know every Gryffindor students name? Even if they did, do you think they would bother looking at a map of Gryffindor tower when they were out and about searching Hogwarts? Scabbers was described as being frequently lost. Ron loses him on a number of occasions and Hagrid had to return Scabbers just before they all went to the shrieking shack. Peter was probably outside of Hogwarts doing things to try and bring back Voldemort so he wouldn't show up on the map.

he always loses scabbers, scabbers is not faithfully with him all the time.. in fact i think the book covers this saying that scabbers goes out at night sometimes and randomly reapears after days and ron has no idea wher ehe was" stupid useless rat is never even around" .. weak writing yes.. plot hole no..

First of all, Peter would ALWAYS show on the map as Peter, not Scabbers. In GoF, Barty Crouch shows up as Barty Crouch even when he is polyjuiced as Moody. Second, Fred and George only used the map to sneak about, not to spy on their brother. Third, Peter was hardly ever mentioned to be with Ron unless it was an important part of the book. I mean, really, who would want to sleep with a rat in their bed?

i highly doubt they paid all that much attention to who peter pettigrew was, for all they knew he was in ron's year, and they proabiliy only paid attention to teacher's names, flinches, ms. Norris's and the actually lay-out of Hogwarts

Fred and George gave the map to Harry because they thought Harry had more of a need for it than they did. It's likely that they already knew it by heart and wouldn't have given it away if they used it very often; since they memorized all the secret passageways, they probably wouldn't use it very much, let alone for the purpose of looking up on their sibling. Plus, they are hardly the parental type. I doubt they spent much time stalking Ron.

Everyone seems to think that Fred and George would KNOW who Peter Pettigrew was- but they obviously would NOT. I mean, if they had the map, they are obviously not going to know excactly who everyone is-sure, they could've saw Pettigrew's name on the map, but why would they CARE??? He'd just be another Gryffindor student, and it's not like Fred and George would know or even want to know every single person they saw on that map. Plus, they'd probably just assume that Pettigrew was in the same grade as Ron, so younger then them, and so they would never have a need to hang out with Pettigrew or meet him. Plus, why would they care about Ron's friends? If you have siblings, you know that sure, you might know who your brother's BEST friend is, but you won't know/care/remember everyone he hangs out with.

Fred and George does not know who Peter Pettigrew was in the same way we guys dont know all the names of our parent's friends when they were in high school.

Yup. Plot hole.

Well its a big school and why would they want to look in their own dormitory when they're already there; they could've just missed it

Aidditionaly, Harry did use the map in his dormitory. How could he not notice Peter Pettigrew?

Also Scabbers is not always around

Do you actually think Fred and Goerge usedthe map to "keep an ey on Ron". They used it for secret passageways and to see where the teachers were. Besides the map isn't very big. It shows ALL of the students at Hogwarts, most of the names must be very close anyway. Fred and George can't remember who Ron's friends are and who is in Gryffindor.

Quote: " I might be wrong but I think Scabbers was genuinely a rat for years and then he died and Petter Pettigrew replaced himself as 'Scabbers'. That's what I thought anyway and I thought that was explained in Book 3." Umm, no, not at all... it explains in Book 3 that Percy got Scabbers years ago and he was already missing one finger. Scabbers was always Peter Pettigrew, there was never a real rat named Scabbers. I always assumed that they either didn't care enough or use the map enough to notice. I also assumed that they used the map more for finding hidden entrances to the castle than creeping on people. Furthermore, think of how many students and teachers there are at Hogwarts (not to mention ghosts, house elves, etc) how likely do you think it would be that in that rare offchance that Fred and George decided to creep on their brother, he was by himself so they only saw two small dots? Most of the time, I'm sure he was with a few people, and they most likely wouldn't bother to read every name around him.

It's is possible that Fred and George didnt know who Peter Pettigrew was as the map refers to it's creators in their animagus form, Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs.

Who's to say they didn't know who Pettigrew was and simply thought he was a friend of Ron's? I'm sure they didn't care ALL THAT much, and seeing another name on the map that they didn't recognize probably wasn't to foreign of an experience.

wasn't Scabbers running away all the time?

I don't think J.K. the books say WHEN the twins first learned how to operate the map? That could be the answer to why they didn't notice Pettigrew when Percy still had Scabbers. Why they never noticed him around Ron? They didn't care about Ron I suppose.

Fred and George would have used the map for trouble making, not people watching. They really wouldn't care where Ron was, they would be more interested in where Filch and Mrs Norris were so they could use the secret passages. Harry noticed him because a)it was at night and he was one of the only people moving and b)it was a name that was in his head at the time.

to the comment about the number of students, it's a little bit iffy, but it's not necessary for J.K to name every single person in their year, they are simply the ones in Harry's dorm, and several y of the most common yearmates he associates with. And also, it's possible that the twins might have only had the map for even a minimum of a year before they ended up giving it to Harry. And Peter Pettigrew, by that time, was not a commonly referrred to name, so it's possible they didn't recognise it.

It was confiscated by filch before harry went there. Remember?

Umm they had even longer than Ron's time at school to have noticed Peter. You forget, Scabbers belonged to Percy previously. They had from whenever they nicked the map in their 1st year to the end of the year and all of their 2nd year to notice. And Percy was one of their favorite targets.

But there aren't thousands of students at Hogwarts. In Harry's year, there are 4 other male Gryffindor students (Ron, Neville, Dean and Seamus). That tells us that the total counts of students in a year should be about 40, and the total amount adding up to somewhere around 280. I agree, this is just a plot hole.

Seeing as there are possibly thousands of students at Hogwarts, it's easy to assume Peter Pettigrew got lost in the crowd, especially as Fred and George weren't specifically looking for him. If they did decide to check up on Ron on the map (but why bother, seeing as they could check up on him in person in the Common Room?) they would assume Peter Pettigrew was another student. Who knows the names of all the students two years below them? Harry, of course, would have noticed the name because it was on his mind, but the connection was not made to Scabbers because the rat was conveniently lost and the map conveniently confiscated for appropriate lengths of time.

Well there could be an undetectable antidote

You have opened my eyes! Ohhhh! My eyes!!!!!

The story's (if you are really searching for flaws) are full of 'hmms' To name a few. The time turners could have done so much more (MR & MRS Potter) The invisibility cloak that is supposed to be unique and provides complete total invisibility with no exceptions HOWEVER. It can be seen on the map, Moody can see through it, MRS Norris can see through it. Things like 'fluffy' are silly because it could just be killed with the 'killing curse'. Why don't they use mobile phones? Sirius wouldn't have died. When they opened the 'Chamber of Secrets' why didn't they run and get all of the teachers. Why didn't Crouch's son (disguised as moody, just take harry into the forest, stun him then disapparate with him. Or 'imperius' him then get him to use floo powder and go directly to the riddle house. Or stun him put him in the suitcase with the other moody and just leave. Why didn't they use Veritaserum LOADS MORE. More than 50 occasions it should have been used. Why does Voldemort always insist on a good long chat with Harry rather than just kill him. Why wouldn't all of the order have 'Felix Felicis' on them at all times. (this is a stupid one) Why does 'Mrs Weasley' say to 'Ginny' in the first book "What's the platform number" - She went to the school and it had always been that number. There are hundreds of thing's that don't make sense (even in the fictional world) but you just gotta love it for what it is, probably the best children and teen book of all time.

The Veritaserum only unfolds what the person believes to be the truth. So it wouldn't be reliable say if used on someone who is demented.

It's just like real life.

well, but did you remember the Harry saw the basilic die in the Chamber of Secrets didn't he? I suggest you go back and reread the second book.

Nobody said the ministry was moral. In fact, the cruelty of the ministry has been sort of a point of protest, usually thought Hermione, for the last half of the series

Because with Veritaserum you would only tell what you believe to be the truth. For example couldn't ask someone who was dosed with the Serum how big his feet are and get an answer. So since with Veritaserum you can only tell the truth you believe to be the truth it would be very easy to fool the potion since you could just erase the memory of a murder and the suspect would say he didn't kill anyone under the potion.

They probably did that to keep the story more tragic, so, who really knows????

I'll set the record straight. Veritaserum is totally reliable even if someone uses a anti veritaserum potion there must be a zillion ways to tell and modified memories can also be detected by a powerful wizard like dumbledore.

They probably also don't use it because it might actually prove Voldemort's existence. If Harry took the Veritaserum potion and said that Voldemort was alive, the world would be in panic and alarm. By not giving him the potion, they are able to brand Harry as a liar and the Ministry themselves are able to lie to the wixarding community in order to prevent panic from arising.

According to Dumbledore there are anti Veritaserum potions.

Noone ever said the ministry was moral, also everyone thought that sirius was guilty because of all the witnesses, they only use the dementors kiss in extreme cases, not even with someone like bellatrix lestrange. With sirius, they wanted to get it done with as fast as possible.

This isn't like taking a polygraph test, truth potion is magical and infallible. Sure, someone could tamper with a witness' memory, but it would still prove, at the very least, that Harry Potter didn't INTEND to lie about Voldemort, which is what he was accused of doing. And in a world where love potions are perfectly legal to trick someone into loving you, someone can't even CONSENT to taking a truth potion? That makes no sense.

youre forgetting one simple thing. if harry's mind had been tampered with by someone skilled enough (Voldemort or Dumbledore) into believing something the veritiserum wouldn't bring out the actual truth, it would bring out what harry's mind was made to believe to be true

exactly! And when they said Harry was lying, HELLO! TRUTH POTION=WHETHER VOLDEMORT IS ALIVE!

sorry but in real life too there are narcotic tests to find out the truth and lies but its not used for everyone.. same thing might be in harry potter..

Basically if you don't think you're lying you could still lie. You tell what you think is the truth. It's not infallible.

Just goes to show the character of the Ministry doesn't it? I mean, no where in the HP series is the Ministry referred to as a moral authority, if anything they are portrayed as a bunch of half terrified inbred power loving lot?

like we can just use "HYPNOTISM" in real life trials !! great question indeed.

This is just silly- this is like saying "Because justice is not upheld perfectly, why should we try to do anything just at all"

The use of veritaserum is banned in the Wizengamot because it's a belief that it can be fooled by using various methods. Also, most of their prisoners are very skilled people like death eaters, so you would probably think they would know all such means...

Firstly, like with real polygraphs, if you think something is true then the test says its true. I would think the same is true with Veritiserum, for example, if a deatheater does not consider killing muggles or muggle-borns as murder, then asking a deatheater under the influence on Veritiserum if he murdered a muggle-born he would still say no, because for him it is true. Secondly, in the case of Sirius, it seemed a open and shut case and there were a lot of witnesses who said they saw Sirius murder Pettigrew. Thirdly, as regretable as it is, governments are often overly liberal, especially when it comes to giving criminals rights...

Veritaserum, which compels the drinker to divulge the truth, would probably not work on people who were either tricked, Confunded, or had their memories modified. After all, had Dumbledore not required Harry to remain with him until "Mad-eye Moody" was revealed to be Barty Crouch Jr he would have been convinced that it was the real Mad-eye that had manipulated events all year and would have testified to the fact because it was true... as he saw it. Because of such a glaring gap in the potion's usability, and the likelihood that an evildoer would Confund or modify their own memory in order to get around this obsticle, the Ministry would likely have ruled that such "confessions" would not have been admissable. Dumbledore no doubt believed the one Crouch gave because 1) He was a Death Eater, 2) He was supposed to be dead, 3) He was caught mascarading as someone else, 4) He had no time to Confund himself prior to his capture, and 5) Because his account of events matched up with the other available facts precisely.

"That's like asking why we don't use a lie detector test on our own criminals... People still have rights and it's unfair to do that to them." That isn't why we don't use lie detectors. We don't use lie detectors because they are entirely unreliabile and give false positives/negatives all the time.

How could anyone have known Harry was alive? Anyone who saw Godric's Hollow and knew that Voldemort had visited probably assumed they were all dead. They weren't in a rush to search the ruins when they thought there would only be dead bodies.

it's just like a lie detecter - do you think every guy on maury isn't the daddy? i don't think so. those babies look just like them. they know it doesn't always work because people can trick those things & simple human/technological error.

That's like asking why we don't use a lie detector test on our own criminals... People still have rights and it's unfair to do that to them. I'm sure when the Death Eaters has control over the ministry, they did stoop to such levels. Also, just like someone can be trained to lie and not be caught, I'm sure someone can be trained to lie through the potion.

he had to be brave to betray his own friends

It's Veritaserum!! Verita is latin for truth, thus truthserum

JK rowling has said that, much like occulamancy, people can block there minds to Vertiserum. EG block its effects. in the case of Sirius the ministry thought that he was voldermorts 'right-hand man' and thought they had taught him some of his most powerful dark magic which would include becoming resistant to the effects of the truth potion.

I don't think this is a plot hole- I think its just a way of showing how unjust the ministry is.

That's the point. They're meant to be incompetent, inconsistent, etc.

rather than seeing this as a plot hole, doesn't seems that Jo is just lecturing the reader about a flawed justice system very alike ours?

The same reason Harry can't use it against Slughorn, Dumbledore mentions that Slughorn can probably resist it.

I've always wondered about this. Also, using the pensieve to study the witnesses' or defendant's memories of events in a trial Yeah, yeah, memories can be tampered with, but still, you'd think applying these two methods in combination with everything else would result in a more accurate verdict.

perhaps there are undesirable side effects to the frequent use of veritaserum? also, the MoM is a government which, like all governments, is on a budget. sending someone to Azkaban is probably far cheeper than constantly brewing veritaserum.

in usa u can be killed for a crime but have the right to remain quiet in questioning.

Yes, J.K. Rowling said that people can pretend to be under the truth potion's effects but actually be resisting it. If it was a matter of going to Azkaban forever, then knock the person out like they did to Crouch Jr. in the 4th book and I'd like to see them try and "resist actually drinking" that potion then. And as for them not working 100%, there are few methods that do, is even an eyewitness 100%? No. Veritaserum should be something that is used as one piece of evidence in an entire trial.

J.K. Rowling has stated that veritaserum is not relied upon by magical law enforcement because it is not 100% reliable, and people can develop a certain level of resistance to the serum's effects. However, I would also like to point out that the Ministry of Magic seems to have a legal system that is, for sheer lack of a better phrase, completely retarded. Maybe that's why Fugde seems to always appear to handle relatively minor matters, like arresting Hagrid in book 2and meeting Harry at the leaky Cauldron in book 3? It's as if this man has nothing better to do or no one capable to delegate these tasks to, both of which we know to be untrue.

Apparently if you get force fed the potion one can stop it from going down their throat and could pretend to be under it. I've always wondered why they don't us leginmency but I suppose it is illegal...

J.K. never went into what happens if you use veritaserum on someone who has been Confunded or Imperiused. The one person we've seen it used on was Barty Crouch Jr., who had no time to mount a defense against it. It is possible, even likely, that veritaserum has its limitations and is therefore not a reliable method of extracting truth in a courtroom.

Veritaserum is not infallible, Crouch (powermad) sended him to Azkaban without a trial, since there where many eyewitnesses. Even with veritaserum Crouch could have said that Sirius was using trickery to render himself inmune to it.

Hmmm... I've thought about that many times... I guess like real truth serum, the potion forces people to recount what they think is true, which may not necessarily be the actual truth... Tampered minds can render the potion useless... But I do find the ministry kinda efficient; underage magic detection anyone?

In the fifth book, it was revealed that Bartemius Crouch Sr. (who was half mad at the time) ordered people to be sent to Azkaban without trial. And the Dementors didn't always do the kiss, that would be equal to a death sentence in our court system.

The ministry of magic is flawed and often unjust, like many governments around the world. On the use of the truth potion, Veritaserum; like lie detectors, it is not foolproof and can be decieved.

I would just point out that in the US, polygraphs are inadmissable in most court rooms.

because think if he was given a porktey the person giving it to him would disappear and he would know it was a trick so if they did all that they would have time during the maze to make the porktey

If Harry suddenly disappears, then Dumbledore would have been alerted that something strange is happening. I guess Voldemorts plan was sending Harry's dead body back to Hogwarts, so it would like he had have an accident in the maze.

Because if Crouch had just given Harry a portkey THERE WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN A FREAKING BOOK!!!

Honestly? You know that pesky thing about making you work for your food so it's even more valuable to you? I think it works the same way with magic, the bigger the trials the prey goes through, the stronger it's blood will be. This is just my (and probably most fanfictioners') theory. Plus if Harry's exhausted, then he can't fight back properly, although, that backfired for old Voldy.

Here is my theory. Voldemort has a HUGE ego and wanted a spectacular return. The TWT was a MAJOR event that hasn't happened in a long time so most of the world (at least 3 countries) was probably listening. His original plan probably was: 1) Have Crouch Jr get Harry into the TWT. 2) Have Crouch Jr make sure Harry survives and wins the TWT. 3) Get Harry to the graveyard 4) Revive himself using Harry's blood. 5) Summon his Death Eaters to gloat. 6) Duel and kill Harry. 7) Take the portkey back to Hogwarts with Harry's corpse. 8) Present Harry's body and scare the whole world. The problem is that Harry escaped. Voldemort first would be angry and then think about the Prophecy. He also probably later heard from Lucius that Fudge didn't believe Harry about Voldemort's return. Voldemort' comes up with a plan to lay low and have Dumbledore and the Ministry fight each other while he builds his army and tries to get the prophecy.

Voldemort wanted to stay hidden. If Harry just suddenly wound up dead, that would be a problem. But if he were to horribly die at the conclusion of one of the most dangerous competitions students could face, that doesnt require him to show himself

Since when did Voldemort value simplicity? You can't always blame what a character does on the author because their choices and actions are relative to their characterisation. Voldemort is smart, cunning and likes to work in secret. If the brewing of the potion is relevant, he would have seen the tournament as a golden opportunity to make a smart, cunning, secret plan. Yeah, it could have been easier. But he wouldn't have wanted it to be. I have my issues with GoF, but that isn't one of them.

One important thing to keep in mind is that Voldemort's plan went wrong. Harry wasn't meant to survive. So rather than looking at this plot hole from the standpoint of what DID happen, one should consider what was SUPPOSED to happen. (1) The portkey had to be something that only Harry would touch, or the whole plan was out the window. Something like a book or a shoe might have been accidentally touched by someone else. The TriWizard Cup only had the potential to be touched by four people - it would be easier to keep three of them away than it would be to keep the entire rest of the school away from something else. (2) Harry's death had to look like an accident. It would therefore have to happen with no witnesses. Voldemort knew that Dumbledore was keeping a very close eye on Harry, and couldn't be sure that at any given moment, Dumbledore wouldn't be watching. However, Dumbledore's sense of honor and fair play WOULD keep him from interfering in the tournament, so that was where Harry would be vulnerable. Crouch/Moody, of course, had no problem interfering. (3) If Harry died during a game, it would demonstrate Harry's weakness. Voldemort needed Harry humiliated, not just killed, so that the world would know that Harry's victory over Voldemort as a baby was just a fluke. (4) It was important that no one discover that Moody was actually Crouch, partly because the disguise would remain useful over time, and partly because it would be evidence of Voldemort's return - something he wasn't prepared to have the world know yet. (5) THe cup was probably already a portkey. It was likely set to make the winner of the tournament appear back in front of the crowd. It might not have been possible for Crouch to make a portkey from scratch that would work within Hogwarts, but he could alter an existing one.

If he would've been randomly kidnapped by Mad-Eye then that would've added more weight to his Voldemort story and if J.K. Rowling would've have set it up that way it wouldn't have allowed Harry to change through seeing Cedric die and Voldemort never would have set out looking for a new wand. Also it would've have put everyone at the school out looking for him, since it was done during the tournament they just assumed that he was having a hard time finding the trophy. In this way there was no risk that anyone would find Harry since they thought he was still in the tournament.

I read this book a while ago, but I'm pretty sure Harry used the marauder's map at some point, wouldn't he noticed there was a Barty Crouch in Moody's office? and regarding this specific plot hole, I believe its possible Voldemort was getting everything ready for his come back while the tournament was going on and perhaps making it so to return until the end of it.

It had to coincide with the completion of the potion used in the cauldron, he couldn't be kidnapped a month earlier or Dumbledore and everyone would get him and ruin the plans. The maze hid the activities in a way that would ensure (with Crouch Jr's help) that Harry would be at the right place and time to bring back Voldy.

In order for Voldemort to get a body he needed the blood of his greatest enemy. So if Crouch had killed Harry, Voldemort would still be dependent on someone else.

Er..Just wanted to add (based on the comments and on my knowledge after reading all books more than twice each) 1)You probably can't place a portkey within Hogwarts' Limits ; The TriWizard Tournament would be an exception 2)Voldemort likes big things,schemes and icons that represents his achievements.. As Harry asks in the 6th book, after they discover that Voldemort had - in fact - Horcruxes, Harry asks Dumbledore what kind of object they could be. Dumbledore says "An Horcrux can be any object, but Voldemort wouldn't make it a common object - it would need to be a symbol of his achievements". Now, how could Voldemort make his victory over Harry more phenomenal? Let it be at the end of the tournament, right when he picks the TriWizard Cup - A symbol of eternal glory. Then, this is sucked from him and the real glory will go to Voldemort, once he gets back to a real body and triumphs over the boy who supposedly defeated him years ago. And there is a symbol of his victory - The Cup.

I know right why couldn't mad-eye/crouch just say hey harry follow me and lead him to the cemetery

Not only was using the TriWizard tournament totally unnecessary to get a little bit of Harry's Blood or transport him to the cemetery, but the TriWizard tournament itself is totally unnecessary. Why is a school encouraging teenagers to fight dragons, or encouraging them to volunteer to allow mermaids to try and drown them in a lake? What kind of school is Hogwarts, anyway?! They don't seem interesting in protecting kids very much. All the adults there seems like psychopaths for allowing this death trap tradition to continue.

Also, why didn't they just make it a single-use Portkey? Why give him the opportunity to escape, when most Portkeys are only active one-way? Because plot device and lackluster writing.

Dude you realize that the potion needs to brew and an alibi was needed

As someone else rightly said, Moody: Harry, pass me that book would you? Harry: OK (grabs hold of book and is transported) What am I doing here? (Grabs portkey and is transported back What really happened- (Diggory and Potter grab portkey at the same time) "Hey, maybe this is part of the trial, let's stay and see what happens!" That's not even a 'plot hole' anyway. It doesn't leave an error in the storyline so that point shouldn't even be there.

If Crouch Jr. needed to modify an existing portkey, really how hard was it to find one, modify it, and bring it to Hogwarts? If it would have made a boring story without the tournament, then Rowling should have revised her poor writing to get around this plot hole. If Voldermort wanted to return without arising suspicion, then sending Crouch disguised as Moody to Dumbledore's school for a year is just as risky. Not only that, but after Voldermort returns to full strength, he activates the dark mark which summons his death eaters, which definitely would have aroused suspicion since that would alert Snape and Karkaroff of his return one of whom might alert Dumbledore.

First off, Voldemort had plenty a times to "just kill" Harry, but when he had the chances he never took them. He wanted to do more than to "just kill him" I guess you can say he had a sort of sentimental value in him. Also, Harry probably would not have died in the trials in the first place because Crouch made it so Harry would win. Plus going along with the Goblet of Fire, if Crouch gave him the cup, then everyone would know it was him. He was trying to get away with it without anyone knowing it was him. (which didn't work out anyway) but it was the whole point. Voldemort and his Death Eaters always have an elaborate plans and want to follow them through till the end.

voldemort wanted harry dead but he didnt want people to know hes back yet, so dying from a triwizard tournament task is far more rational than suddenly dissapearing or dying or found dead at voldemorts fathers grave.

okay guys obviously Voldemort is a psychopath who has a faulty sense of grandeur. He could have clearly done that but remember everything Voldemort does has to have a "special" meaning to him. For example Voldemort could have easily picked a random spoon to put his soul into, but he picked something of high value. its the same with defeating Harry. he wanted it to be special because he was the boy who lived and defeated him.

Crouch wanted to continue to be at Hogwarts. It would have been obvious otherwise. Also, Voldemort told him to. Voldemort is not the most rational person in the world.

Very true. Moody had Harry's trust (having joined the legion of would-be Harry-Father-Figures). Even if Apparition and Portkeys don't (normally) work within Hogwarts grounds, it wouldn't have been difficult for Moody to get Harry off-grounds. Forbidden Forest and Hogsmeade are close by. A basic ploy to get Harry into either of these areas would be infinitely simpler than the magic needed to infiltrate and pervert the Triwizard Tournament.

I agree that this 1 is pathetic. Dumbledore talks to Harry about this specifically. He says that Voldemort was trying to act in secret so no one knew he was back. Not gonna work with an authorized portkey made a Hogwarts, and Harry , last seen entering crouch's office, suddenly not showing up to Herbology class and dinner where he's expected.

by making it in the center of the maze, where no one could see, it created doubt as to whether or not harry actually went anywhere. in the 5th book, there are people who believe him and people who don't, which is what happened in the first "war". The good guys didn't want to believe that voldemort was back. If they made it a random object, there is more of a chance that someone would see him disappear, and therefore have more reason to believe that something was wrong

He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named needed HP's blood. I agree with some of your "plot holes" but this one is just pathetic.

Because if that happened the Goblet of fire would be a picture book that looks pathetic on your Harry Potter bookshelf. Its not a plot hole, just sometimes fans need to give JKR some slack. I mean; it makes for a better story. This is a plot gap (simply absent from story) not a plot hole (a istake surrounded by correct info)

Everyone would've realized Harry was missing had he done it like that. Then they would've caught Crouch, interrogated him, and sent help to Harry. It would've been way too obvious.

the only reason i can think of that you might want to modify an existing portkey is to trick someone into going somewhere they don't want to go to, so if the ministry of magic regulate portkeys, why don't they stop people doing that

Portkeys are regulated by the Ministry of Magic, so Crouch Jr had to modify the existing one and ensure that Harry got to it first. It would've been very suspicious if the Ministry got word of an illegal Portkey being created inside the school.

Hey Voldemort wanted to resurrect himself during the summer equinox so that the ritual would be more powerful.

It was meant as a method to resurrect (or whatever you want to call it) Voldemort and to kill Harry without anyone becoming suspicious. There is a good chance that they intended to dump Harry's body back into the middle of the maze and hope everyone just thought "Crap, this thing really is deadly..." It was clearly stated by several people that no one was meant to know that Voldemort was returning. Harry being murdered MIGHT have sort of poked at that....

Seriously, Voldemort was still in that creepy baby body being toted around by wormtail. Would you want to sic dumbledore on your evil butt risk 13 years of rebuilding your body and soul when you could easily disguise it in a school tournament. Voldemort was still trying to be sneaky, and Harry was never supposed to survive to reveal Voldy was back. Seriously, voldemort only got his body back AFTER he captured Harry and used his blood in that voldy stew. If anything had gone wrong with that (seeing as wormtail was in charge of many of the potion preparations) Voldmort would want to have a back up plan. ie. nabbing Harry while he was hidden in the maze, and any injuries could be easily explained away through the tournament. No plothole

Maybe you cant make portkeys in Hogwarts, like you cant apparate in Hogwarts (except Dumbledore of course), and the cup was some sort of exception because it was supposed to bring you out of the maze instead of to the graveyard? Thats the only thing I can think of, and his death could be blamed on one of the creatures in the maze

Because then it would have been pretty obvious, voldemort wanted to return without anybody knowing. if crouch had sent him to voldemort out right they would have caught him and gotten the truth, but this way a monster might have eaten him in the maze

Because then there would be no fourth book. It'd go: 'Hey, Harry, drink this, would you? From one dark-wizard chaser to another (potential) one...' OH **** IT'S VOLDEMORT! And Harry would be dead, having no dying boy to divert attention from himself. And the series would have ended.

Well the school was having the triwizard tournament anyway and Harry had to be on it because the whole book is about him and it just makes it more exciting that he survives all this and in the the cup is a portkey

Crouch Jr. never intended for anyone to find out that he was posing as Mad-Eye.

OR MAYBE YOU COULD ALL REALIZE THAT NO ONE KNEW THAT CROUCH JR. WAS REALLY MAD-EYE AND THAT HE SHOWS EXAMPLES OF BEING ABLE TO SECLUDE STUDENTS. I.E. NEVILLE AFTER SHOWING THE CLASS THE UNFORGIVABLE CURSES. Seriously it would not have been hard at all to "give harry detention" and make him write lines with a portkey quill or asked about him becoming an Auror??!?!?! COME ON PEOPLE. Are there only 12 year olds on here? Seriously? So many retarded comments....

You are forgetting that Dumbledore watches Harry 24/7. Need I say more? Seriously, I thought this page would make sense. All the things posted here are merely questions of people who didn't understand the series and didn't bother searching for canon answers. If you will be considerate enough to do the latter, you will actually find that JK has sensible answers to every HP question asked of her.

it would look much les suspicious

Yeah, JKR COULD have made the portkey some random object, like a book or something, but it would have made the GoF an amazingly stupid book, ruined the whole series, and whate would happen when some random kid decides they're really thirsty and a cup is right there, or that book on the shelf looks really interesting? All these loop holes are very stupid loop holes, and if you looked a little closer very easily explain. And some of the answers to these plot holes ate merely there because if JKR hadn't included them the stories would turn out completly different.

Crouch: hey Harry pass me that book Harry: okay *gets transported to graveyard* oh no, I'm in a random creepy graveyard for no reason. I should go back using the book portkey. That is what would have happened if Crouch hadn't put Harry in the TWT. As opposed to: Harry: look Cedric the triwizard cup! Let's grab it! *gets transported to creepy graveyard* wow, must be an extra part of the trial, let's stay and see what happens!

yeah i always saw this as Voldermort adding drama and intrigue to his return, setting harry up as a hero before murdering would make Voldermort look even more powerful than he was. when the plan in the cemetary failed he decided to tread more carefully afterwards and delay his public return

To the comment below, if it had ended just like that, people would start to wonder, where's the adventure, the drama, the thick spines!? Anyway it would be a VERY poor way to end The Goblet of Fire, not to mention, that it doesn't sound like J. K. Rowling AT ALL.

This is one of the things that bothered me about the whole series. Why go through all the trouble of getting Harry into the tournament, turning the cup into a teleporter, and helping Harry win the tournament? Why not just have Barty turn some other object into a teleporter (let's say a book), put it somewhere in his office, call Harry to his office, and casually say "Btw, can you pass me that book over there"? This made the whole plot of GOF pretty idiotic and unnecessary. And lol at the retards saying "Voldie's return was supposed to be a secret". WTF are you talking about? There would have been like a zillion ways of keeping it secret without going through all the trouble they went, like using the plan I just suggested >_> Added 1 year ago by guest Not even sorry this is a year later, but, Sorry - You think that you can do better than J.K Rowling? Good work, bro. YOU write a book, then tell someone else how to write. Good job, sport.

Some of the comments above are quite frustrating. Harry's not stupid and would not just be like 'oh yeah I'm dying for a cuppa' and take hold of a cup. Also, I agree with the comments saying that portkeys don't work in and out of Hogwarts unless Dumbledore authorises/creates them (he does this in OoP and apparates in HBP) therefore mad eye asking for a port key would set alarm bells ringing. Voldemort didn't want to have his return made public, therefore organising his return in the final and most deadly challenge of the TWT would be perfect- as it was already said that people died in the tournament. People would put both Harry and Cedrics deaths down to the horrors of the maze. And Voldemort thinks highly of himself- he'd want the death of Harry to be a momentous event in a graveyard with all his followers- not in a shed with wormtail there or anything.

Harry couldn't have died in the tasks because Barty Crouch Jr. made it so, he was helping him even when Harry didn't suspect! Secondly the reason that Harry had to go through the TWT could be that Voldemort needed time to contact his death eaters and start forming the little of his army again! Another reason Barty Crouch Jr. didn't just give Harry a portkey was, he possibly didn't want to blow his cover! besides if he had given Harry a random portkey and would have made Harry disappear, then everyone would know, and Dumbledore and the OOTP would be on alert! it had to be done discreetly and was to look like an accident! Voldemort's plan was to not notify the ministry of his return, which worked beautifully, just as he had planned!

PERHAPS the enchantments that dont allow anyone to apparate/disapparate from the castle ALSO dont allow anyone to use a portkey. And some of the enchantments were lifted on the maze, for some reason or another...

Voldemort was very materialistic. Obviously he would not make a paper cup or a tee bag a horcrux unlike at the triwizard tournament. Those port keys were ment to be hidden and things juggles wouldn't want.

Most people seem to forget that "Mad-eye" is already going to be the likely suspect because Dumbledore sent him to check on the cup. When someone suddenly disappears you always look at the last person to interact with them or interact with the means of their disappearance.

This was the biggest plot hole for me in the series. The entire 4th book seemed irrelevant because Crouch could have sent Harry to Voldemort in the first 100 pages. The entire drama of the Triwizard tournament was exciting reading but then when we saw why Harry was in it, it made no sense. In fact going through with the whole show ran the risk of so many things upsetting Voldemort's plans as Harry could have been easily killed or seriously injured in any of the tasks, rendering Voldemort's return indefinitely postponed.

Voldemort planned on returning Harry's corpse to the arena, making it look like Harry had died in the competition; no one would then have ever discovered him or Crouch Jr. The point was for Harry to be isolated in a deadly environment, get whisked away by the portkey for a few minutes, and get sent back dead.

People are saying the TWC was supposed to be a portkey to the beginning of the maze. I don't remember this being mentioned. I remembered Harry being really surprised by the fact it was a poertkey before he knew where it was taking him. I don't remember anyone saying it was supposed to be a portkey at all.

First of all LOL!!! "Hey Harry take a drink out of this giant cup" honestly though it does confuse me. I mean the whole thing with GoF is really interesting, so I guess it was just to make for a good story. But seriously, you could like make some object a portkey, have Harry touch it whilst in Moody's office and be like, "what, no I didn't see Harry!" and by the time people got around to thinking "hmmmm what happened to Harry?" voldys already killed him. I mean honestly the school won't go into a panic about Harry being missing for like an hour which is plenty of time for him to get killed. I mean if Crouch can manage to trick the GoF, which is some powerful Magic, surely he can get around the whole "no apparating in the castle" thing

A portkey can only go off at a specific designated time, and needs to be approved by the Ministry, which I presume would take a while. How can Moody-Crouch be sure when he establishes it that Harry will be in the exact right place when it is set to leave? He can't know that he'll have Harry in his office, alone, at that moment. One could argue that when Harry touches the Triwizard's Cup it left at his touch, but Moody was manipulating that task, wasn't he? Who's to say he couldn't ensure that Harry would have grasped it by the time it was about to leave? Moody-Crouch had been working up to this moment for a good deal of his life. I doubt there's any other possibility he could have overlooked. And anyway, wouldn't that idea have appealed to Voldemort--valiant Potter, the Triwizard champion, suddenly being flung to his death.

Dumbledore is the only person who has the ability to create a portkey within Hogwarts. I suspect only the headmaster has the ability but they never mentioned any other headmasters doing so. Also they did mention that Dumbledore had "Moody" place the cup because he was trusted, so he must have granted Moody access to make the portkey. Also when Hogwarts students visit Hogsmead there are extra protections placed, yes people are allowed to disaperate there but I doubt Harry didn't have aurors following him or friends of Dumbledore whenever he was there.

Like Moody/Crouch said, he could make it look like an accident if Harry died in the Tri-Wizard Tournament, because people have before. If Moody/Crouch handed Harry a Port-Key, it would have been more obvious someone was trying to kill Harry Potter. Ya know how Fleur was being pushed under the hedges during the maze? It would have taken them MONTHS to find her under there, and she would have been dead. It was so easy for Moody/Crouch to make it look like Harry died in the TWT, but on a regular day at school...not so much.

Voldemort wanted to show the world that there was nothing special about Harry, that Harry didn't have extra-ordinary powers that enabled the downfall of him; if Harry had have been taken easily such as you's have said about the office, etc.. Voldemort would have killed him on the spot. He also had to have an exact time for his plan to go right, he had to make sure that nothing went wrong, the triwizard tournment enabled Barty Crouch Jr to enter Hogwarts posing as Mad Eye, but why go to that bother with out putting Harry through a few near death experiences, making Harry fear each day as it came; use some empathy and think like Voldemort, he would obviously want Harry to suffer for what he had done to him.

Maybe the potion that Voldemort used to return to his body needed several months to be ready or something, and so it coincided with the end of the Tournament. Like Felix Felicis takes 6 months to be ready etc.

harry would win because fake moody would make it so. Harry would need to disappear in a way that doesn't connect him to barty crouch jr., a task that did not work but...

Another hole: why does the portkey go back to Hogwarts just as Harry grabs it?

he would have to get approval from the MoM and they would be suspicious of moody using a port key at hogwarts

^3 The comment three above is pristine but to add my opinion i think ^ lord V's under lining fear that harry is more powerful went into the planing so the use of the TWT was also to exhaust harry physicality and psychologically so their could be chance of his victory.

Portkeys are able to work In hogwarts

Also if harry touches a book, discovers it being a portkey and ending up at a graveyard he probably would be a little suspicious and maybe touch it again to go back. Whilst in the book he thought it was a part of the tournament at first.

The above comment is the most correct. The other explanations are part of it too though. Although it is impossible to make a portkey in Hogwarts (unless you are Dumbledore), there may have been other ways of getting Harry to Voldemort, like getting him while he was in Hogsmead and then disapperating. However, I think the factors like keeping his return secret, making Harry's death look like an accident, and Voldemort needing to use Harry only after he was fully prepared to transform- all make the Triwizard Cup the best plan to get Harry out of Hogwarts. Basically, this is not a plot hole, it just requires thinking.

Apparition is blocked in Hogwarts - portkeys likely are too, for the most part. When they were worried about Sirius Black getting in, no one seemed concerned about him using a portkey, so it likely isn't possible. An exception was made for the Triwizard Cup, which was obviously supposed to return the winner to the maze entrance. It was likely much easier for Barty Crouch to tweak this portkey which was already geared to work at Hogwarts, than it would have been for him to create a new portkey and circumvent those protections.

Harry's death needed to happen without anyone realising that he had been murdered. How else would you abduct and kill Harry Potter without it raising suspicion?

Well, i wouldn't like that part if it isn't like THAT, get it? There could be so much easier ways to bring Harry to the graveyard where Voldy waits, but that portkey thing transports Harry to the graveyard is 'more dramatic'!! I love JK's creativity.

Wormtail was busy preparing Voldy for the transformation! They couldnt have Harry arriving too early now could they?

yes like the comment above, voldemort wanted everyone to think that harry died in the TWT. Dumbledore would get really suspicious so he will investigate and find out if harry just disappeared suddenly. and the last thing voldemort want is dumbledore finding out about his return. this plus voldemort's love for grandeur. think about how he would feel the satisfaction when he successfully put together this grand scheme of him which enabled his return to power.

I know there are other ways it could have been a secret, but it would have been easier to find out who Harry had been with, when he was last seen etc. The fact that they did it in the maze meant that everybody would know that Harry disappeared in there, but there could have been a number of reasons and nobody would have known where he went (except Crouch, obviously).

This is one of the things that bothered me about the whole series. Why go through all the trouble of getting Harry into the tournament, turning the cup into a teleporter, and helping Harry win the tournament? Why not just have Barty turn some other object into a teleporter (let's say a book), put it somewhere in his office, call Harry to his office, and casually say "Btw, can you pass me that book over there"? This made the whole plot of GOF pretty idiotic and unnecessary. And lol at the retards saying "Voldie's return was supposed to be a secret". WTF are you talking about? There would have been like a zillion ways of keeping it secret without going through all the trouble they went, like using the plan I just suggested >_>

well one, i think harry would be VERY suspicious of a giant cup (but i see your point) and two, Moody (crouch) recommended quidditch to harry, which led to accio, and Moody impiriused Krum who got rid of fleur and himself. Harry saved Cedric twice, so Cedric could have been gone too. Cedric could have been a problem though. and something could have gone horribly wrong in the lake task, and i don't know how moody (crouch) would have prevented that.

No one was supposed to know about Voldemort returning, so there would be no resistance.

Well with all the big crowd around the maze it would be handy for the Death Eaters to go to Hogwarts via the cup and torture the nearby crowds.

It had to seem to be an accident. No one other than death eaters were supposed to know about Voldemorts return.

Perhaps it was the grandeur of Harry being in the TWT... Voldemort does love things of high significance and power.

J. K. Rowling tweeted this answer. She said that one can only see thestrals after they've seen death first hand and have come to accept and understand it.

Only happens when you actually accepted death

1st year-Harry Killed Quirrel/saw him die

When Dumbledore died in the 6th book, a lot of students just saw the body but are surprised to see the Thestrals when going back home

How about "why couldn't he see the thestrals from say....always?". I mean he did witness his mom die....

What about Harry killing Quirrell?

Valid plot hole, don't listen to the fanboys.

In the beginning of the 4th book, in Harry's dream he sees Frank the gardener die. So he should have been able to see the thestrals at the beginning of his fourth year. This could be explained away because Harry only saw Frank die in a dream and was not physically present, but it is established, later when Frank comes out of Voldemort's wand, that what Harry saw in the dream was a real event.. Harry witnessed the death of Frank whether he was physically there or not.

I have no real problem with plot holes. They happen. There is a lot of stuff the keep straight. But when they happen, admit it. Don't give us BS about Harry not "coming to terms" with the death. Plain and simple, Harry should have been able to see the thestrals.

Jk Rowlings said in an interview that Harry did not see his parents crib since he was in his crib &in the book Harry's eyes were closed when Voldemort killed Cedric, how did Harry Potter even ever see the Thestrals , if he hadn't actually seen death ?

It specifically said that harry was closing his eyes when Cedric died, and therefore didn't see it. But what about his parents? Didn't he see them die???

Jk Rowling explained this one, he was still in shock and had not fully processed what he had seen.

I agree with HARRY NEVER SAW CEDRIC DIE. good god, some of these are ridiculously easy to answer.

I don't think he can remember his parents death because he was so young, so it doesn't count for the thestrals

hello, it clearlt states he saw his PARENTS die. so he shoud have been ble to see them since FIRST YEAR.

I'm gonna throw this out there as far as death "sinking in" goes. My dad died when I was fourteen. Within the week after he died we had the funeral and yada yada. Three months later it occurred to me - and it was like being hit with a brick - that he was never coming back. Up until then it felt like he had been on a long business trip. I know a lot of people who have felt the same way. That it takes weeks or months to really, fully understand that someone is never EVER coming back. For it to SINK IN. Perhaps the same happened with Harry - and perhaps that's what JK experienced when her mum died as well.

If anyone remembers right Harry saw his mother die when he was a baby... Why couldent he see them the entire time he was at Hogwarts?

Actually shouldn't the real plot hole is that Harry NEVER SEES CEDRIC DIE? Everyone needs to read Globet of Fire again. In chapter 33, when harry sees Wormtail his scar begins to hurt " his wand slipped from his fingers as he put his hands over his face; his knees buckled; he was on the ground and he could see nothing at all" It was only after Cedric's body falls to the ground that Harry finally opens his eyes.

J. K. Rowling said in an interview that Harry was still in shock from witnessing Cedric's death and the full realization that he had seen someone die was not fully set-in. As for his mother's death, she says that Harry was still a baby and would not have been able to understand what he saw; indeed, in the last book, when we see Voldemort remembering the incident, we see Harry laughing about his mother falling down, indicating he doesn't understand she is dead. Harry didn't see Quirrel die either; he fell unconscious before the Quirrel actually died. J. K. Rowling also says that if she had made the thestrals visible at the end of the fourth book, it wouldn't have made sense to the reader so she made the active decision to leave them out.

the biggest hole, is why hasnt harry seen them all along, as he witnessed his mothers death when he was one.

Does seeing death count as if you stepped on an ant?

When would Harry have seen thestrals at the end of the year? Does it specifically say, "Harry hopped onto one of the carriages completely oblivious of the big creepy effing winged horse pulling it." I mean jeez... Even if he DID take a carriage back to Hogsmeade Station... He was probably a bit distracted...

actually Jo said in some interview that Lily put Harry in his crib before Voldemort killed her, and Harry never actually saw it. He also passed out before seeing Quirrel die, and then in the BOOKS it is about witnessing, but also accepting death. Harry hasn't accepted it, as he kept refusing to believe it and having nightmares about it.

Okay, PEOPLE! What happens in the 4th book? CEDRIC dies right in front of Harry. He hadn't seen the Thestrals before because he was too young to remember seeing his parents die and he was passed out or "blacked out" when Quirrel died. And I think he didn't see them at the end because he was still unwilling to accept it. Has anyone around you ever died and you feel like it's not real for a while? Like, any moment they could walk through the door and you wouldn't really be surprised?

"this one i can't ignore the book clearly states someone who has seen death as explained by hermione, harry is clearly seen looking at his mother crying while she is dead in his bedroom" Harry is seen looking at Lily's body in the FILM. The FILM. They're don't count in terms of Rowling's Plot. And it's about accepting and understanding death, not just witnessing it.

He thought his parents died in a car accident. Obviously he doesn't recall their deaths

Harry had never actually seen death. He was probably too young to even realize his parents' had died, even though he had actually seen them die. Quirrel, however, died because of Harry...none the less, it is a plot hole. But nobody's perfect, right?

This is totally a problem. I've been bothered by it for years. But just to set the record straight- he didn't see Quirrel die. He was clearly alive when Dumbledore showed up. That doesn't really matter, of course, because this is still a hole regardless.

He also saw his parents die. So he should have seen him the very first day of his second year. I think 11 years is enough for the death to "sink in".

Because until he saw Cedric died he had never seen anyone die. He had been present but not witnessed it. Over the summer with the nightmares etc it all sunk in s when he returned for his 5th year walla. Neville could see them since first year but was to scred to say. Because no body mentioned them and was all mesmerised with th fact thy got pulled on there own.

the reason is because he hadnt yet accepted cedric diggory's death. it hadnt sunk in yet

he didn't see cedric die at all. he had his eyes shut. there's a plot hole pointed out further down which is that he wouldn't be able to see them in the 5th one

Its not about seeing death though is it? its about understanding death. Jk Rowling said that harry didn't see the thestrals in the fourth book because he needed time to let cedrics death sink in.

The first time he saw death, he was only 1 so wouldn't be able to remember. The second time, when quirrel died, he couldn't see for pain. It wasn't until when Cedric died that he truly saw death. On the way home though, he wasn't really concentrating on anything for all the feelings going on in his head. So he didn't notice them til on his way to hogwarts in his fifth year

I think that at such a young age death isn't understood and also nobody can remember anything from when they were a 1 year old. Quirrel was technically already dead from drinking the unicorn blood they said that because you have killed something so innocent you are no longer living a real live, a cursed life. But that's going by the movie. In the book Harry passes out and Quirrel is described as not dead only wounded. I think Harry didn't really see Cedric die, I think he only saw Cedric after he hit the ground. Remember he was looking around the graveyard and seeing Tom Riddle's tomb stone distracted him. Luna saw her mother die around the age of 9 so it makes sense why she could see them. Too young, too unconscious, and too distracted all add up to why he couldn't see them before Harry saw Sirius die.

this one i can't ignore the book clearly states someone who has seen death as explained by hermione, harry is clearly seen looking at his mother crying while she is dead in his bedroom and he is stand looking over the side of his crib, the you need death to sink in or to comprehend it, makes seeing death utterly pointless her saying she wanted to hide it from the audience until later because of story points doesn't stop it from being a plot hole it just means she accepted that it is a plot hole and decided screw it

he either rememebrs his parents death (because of aLLLLLLLLLL the flashbacks he has about it allllll thgrough the series... countless flashbacks of them dying nad him knowign they died later, still means he understood and acknowledged death, so either all the flashbacks he rmemebers are BULLSit or the thestrals or whatever are, but you harry potter fans cant have both its impossible, and j.k rowling has even said its a plot hole .. o well shes not jesus/

He was a baby when he saw his mother die. He was too young to comprehend that his mother was dead, and as for Quirrel, Harry was already knocked out before he died.

I've always wondered about this... I mean he noticed them in the 5th book but, he saw his parents, Quirrel (does he count?), Tom Riddle (does he count?), and Cedric. He should have been able to see them every year because he remembers his parents death and was there to see it happen

It did say that Harry thought that his parents would soon pop up and laugh...He thought it was a joke.. He didnt really know it...

Didn't Harry see his Mother get killed?

Harry MIGHT have seen the thestrals if he was actually LOOKING! It never says anything about harry seeing the carriages so therfore NO PLOT HOLE. Even if he did look he wouldn't see them because he did not yet process the thought that Cedric was truely dead. He did not understand Cedric's death and it did not sink in!

He did see his parents die as a baby and he did process it death is death even if your to stupid to get a clue the fact us you saw it regardless of age that's no excuse the writer just didn't create those creatures in the first book and the other then when she did she didn't fully think it through

you can only see the thestrals if you've seen someone die. When Harry was one years old, he might not've seen his parents actually die- he was a baby- he could've been closing his eyes or crying, or just simply not looking at the time! Or even if he had seen his parents die, to him it would've just seemed like they fell- when you're that young, you wouldn't have been able to tell right away. And also at the end of the 4th book harry took the TRAIN home, and even if the thestrals were there, he just wasn't looking in that direction!

yes, but he still saw death.

When Harry was a year old and saw his parrents die, he was too young to process it. When he 'saw' Quirrel's death, he didn't see it. He had passed out by then. When he saw Cedric's death, he didn't have time to process it. He was still processing the death by the time he was making his way 'home' from Hogwarts. This isn't a matter of a 'plot hole.' It is a matter of you being too stupid to understand English literature. Muggles these days. Jeez. *rolls eyes*

Wouldn't Harry have seen the thestrals the entire time? I mean he did see his parents die when he was 1 yr old...

The comment about whether or not Harry saw Quirrel's death is redundant. Why would the death of someone who was trying to kill him cause Harry grief? Thestrals appear to those who have had the experience of grieving. Although Rowling allegedly admitted that it was a minor plothole, I hold with the ideas (as mentioned in previous comments) that 1 Hermione was the one that looked in the Thestral's direction or that Harry was in a state of shock and denial.

Cause Cedric's death still hadn't "sunk in" in Harry yet.

They don't go back on the Thestrals, they walk back to the train

Anyone ever hear of 'shock'?

Wow! You people don't pay attention! You don't see the thestrals because you see someone die! You see them because you can accept and understand death!

What about the fact that Harry never actually saw Cedric die either. Read GoF carefully, He had his eyes closed the whole time, only seeing cedric dead once he opened them.

He was in denial. DABDA, anyone? This is officially explained at some point in the series.

This is the one that bugs the crap out of me. He sees Cedric die, and doesn't see the thestrals until the beginning of book 5? I understand if he doesn't see the thestrals after seeing his parents die because he was a baby, but he sees them because of Cedric's death, but not until the next year. Hmmm, something wrong there. I even went back and reread, and the end of book four makes mention of the fact that the carriages are pulled by nothing and Harry is at least aware of this.

I know the answer to this: Its because he was to young to remember, I mean can you remember anything when you were one years old. No you can't.

It doesn't matter if he couldn't understand his parent's deaths because at the end of GoF he had ALREADY seen Cedric die so he should be able to see the thestrals.

NOT A PLOTHOLE. Explained by Rowling: Death needs to "sink in." I take that to mean one needs to perceive and understand what is happening. A one-year-old doesn't understand death.

When Harry's parents died he didn't understand the true meaning of death, and when he was older, although he understood that they had died, he couldn't actually remember seeing someone die so therefore could not see them. Cedric dying and the school term ending happened in a short space of time- the death of someone doesn't sink in that quickly for some people, especially if he had seen someone die, saw Voldemort come back, almost died himself, then with all the stuff about mad eye it probably wouldn't have sunk in until he got back to the Dursley's when he was alone and able to think about what had really happened.

He never saw his parents die. In the movie if you watch the seen it looks like he did. But in the book he was asleep or looking the other way. But in the Goblet of Firehe sees Cedric die therefore he can see the threstrals

^^ Harry didn't leave by other means after 4th year. The train ride as well as Hermione giving him a kiss on the cheek is sufficiently covered at the end of GOF to put that idea to rest. Please stick to the original material. The books and movies don't always agree and they can't both be canon.

if you read it properly, you'll see that the book never mentions harry looking at the carriages. "Hermione turned away, smiling at the horseless carriages...." its actually hermione who looks at the carriages, not harry.

It could be that Harry left hogwarts in a different manor. Since mrs weary was there and a lot of ministry officials, it's quite possible they didn't want him speaking with other students about this incident and therefor they avoided him riding on the carriages and possibly even using the train to get home. Maybe flu power or a port key, since we know harrys first side by side apparition wasn't till later

What I have asked myself is, Why Harry didnt see the thestrals in his first year at Hogwards. Thestrals were seen by people who have seen death. Even that Harry was a baby, he saw his mother dying. He wouldnt remember, but he was a witness of it, and it was in his subconscience, as his encounter with the first dementor let us know. He could hear his mother screaming. So, wasnt he supposed to see the thestrals since the first year?

I would understand this not letting the death "sink in" if it had been Sirius's death in Book 5 that he first saw. That's what I would call not letting a death "sink in". I'm pretty sure he came to terms with Cedric's death before the end of Book 4.

No they don't walk. It says they take the carriages.

Calling other peoples' questions "completely idiotic" when yours is quite easily explained is unbelievably ignorant.

I honestly think they Walk to the Station, They just get the Carridges when they got off the train because of the time and how tired they would be. The Arrive at night leave During Day.

I think it makes alot of sense that you need to come to terms with someones death before seeing the thestrals. If you're ignorant, you shouldn't have the opportunity to see such unique creatures.

If the death needs to 'sink in', it does seem fair enough that his parents deaths hadn't sunk in for the first 10 years of his life, he was only a year old at the time. If the Dursleys' were nice and treated literally as their son, he would have no reason to believe that they in fact weren't his parents and the death of his parents would never sink in because he can't even remember them (except for green light in dreams, but he would never attribute that to his parents death). However when he find the mirror of Erised he sees his whole family and cries his eyes out and goes back repeatedly, surely the death truely sunk in then?

So basically someone could see thestrals if they could convince themselves or could be convinced by someone else that they had seen someone dying. The actual seeing of someone dying doesn't matter, all that matters is if you thought they had died?

Well, actually he should have been able to see them since year one, considering he watched his mom die. Yes, this is a big hole, but surely no one can get everything perfect!

I think he didn't see them because he was more thinkig about voldemort and holidays

Well, introducing a new mystery at the end makes people even more eager to get their hands on the next book, so why wouldn't she want that? 'sunk in' I'd think he had enough time to let it sink in, don't you? It seemed like when he was screaming 'Cedric, no!' He realised the dude was dead, no?

She says on her fanpage that she didn't want to open that can of worms at the end of the book, and that few enough would notice this. Those that would notice would probably check her page for FAQs.

it never actually mentions the ride in the carriages maybe they don't ride in them on the way back

^^ He saw Quirrel die in the first MOVIE, but not in the book. If we are to pick on plot holes, we should probably stick to the original material.

also he saw Quirrel die in the first movie but he still couldnt see the thestrals

Also, Rowling didn't want to introduce a new "mystery" that wouln't be resolved until the next book came out.

Previous comment is correct, except that Cedric's death HADN'T sunk in at the end of the fourth book. It took a while before Harry came to terms with seeing him die.

Everyone commenting here is misinterpreting what people are saying. Harry should have seen the Thestrals at THE END of the FOURTH book, after seeing CEDRIC DIE, instead of in the beginning of the fifth book. When you're all saying J.K. Rowling said "it didn't sink in", she was talking about the years Harry had taken the carriages BEFORE Cedric's death. I think there's no explanation for this one, it's just a plot hole.

-_- Either way, end of fourth book is in hermionie's perspective. Harry was too cut to realise the thestrals were even there

I would have to check, but I thought they only rode the carriages when they are arriving at the castle? Again, you all seem to be in agreement, so I'm probably wrong, but I thought I'd throw it out there.

^^I kind of agree, but wouldn't that kind of ruin the story a bit? When you're reading it, you don't want to be thinking "ah, she made a mistake here". Everyone makes mistakes and it makes sense for her to make it like she meant to. Even if she didn't.

"He hadn't let it sink yet"? Wow. That's the weakest explanation I've ever seen. I wish Rowling would admit when she screws up, as opposed to trying to explain her plotholes with BS like that.

rowling has said that the death has to be accepted, so on his way home, he had not fully come to terms with what he had witnessed.

It says in the Deathly Hallows, when he "becomes" Voldemort and it tells us how Voldemort saw the night the Potters died and he tried to kill harry, that Harry thought his parents were only pretending to die. He didnt understand that his parents died right in front of his eyes, so when he saw Cedric die, he had finally seen (and understood) someone die right in front of his eyes.

It is as bri1234 said, he hadn't let Cedric's death sink in.

I never got this either. You`d think someone would notice huge black horses that look like skeletons with wings.

J.K said that Harry wasn't old enough to understand death when his parents died. He wasn't able to let it "sink in." He was when Cedric died because he was much older.

Maybe Harry just wasn't paying attention. It never says that Harry looked at the carriages but saw no thestrals. He might have been looking at the ground, or busy talking to Ron.

dumbledor is old. 100+ his brain is full and there are a lot of important things he needs to remember and cannot afford to forget. i dont know for sure but maybe harry cant use it because his brain isn't quite filled to the brim yet

Only problem with this is that, as per book 6, memories can be altered, and Dumbledore is one of the best wizards in the world, who could most certainly make a proper memory alteration charm

There could be a difficult mental process to extracting a memory or thought. Like with making a horcurx, it's not just automatically done when you kill someone. Dumbeldore probably wouldn't have thought it sensible to explain the process to Harry in the state he was in. Maybe you have to mentally relive the whole memory in order to extract it anyway. I know it can't be that hard if Slughorn can manage it when he's wasted, but I still think it's more character choice than plot hole. We've only seen a few people utilise the pensieve and though/memory extraction, so it must still be complicated enough that it wasn't worth the time and effort of explaining to Harry.

Fudge was at the point where he wouldn't have believed Voldemort was back even if Voldemort had jumped out from behind Harry's hospital bed and introduced himself. He would've assumed that the memory was altered by Dumbledore, who unlike Slughorn, could have altered the memory perfectly. And Vensterim (sorry I spelled that wrong) would not have worked either since Harry truly believes Voldemort did come back or Fudge could have said Dumbledore altered Harry's mind.

The memory could have easily been altered by a wizard of dumbledore's skill. Slughorn had power but was lacking in finesse. dumbledore had power AND finesse and could have easily altered the memory without leaving any telltale "footprints". And don't forget that Dumbledore is the only wizard Voldemort was ever scared of and it was widely known. and Fudge had his head too far up his a$$ to see the truth

You're missing the point. Fudge wouldn't have believed it, no matter how convincing. He was so scared that it might be true, he wouldn't allow himself to face the terrible possibility.

They would have said Dumbledore tampered with it. And I'm sure he could have done so much better than Slughorn did.

In the film version, the Pensieve is said to show past memories, but the conversation between Harry and Dumbledore in the book says it shows memories AND thoughts; AD: "It is called a Pensieve. I sometimes use find . . . that I simply have too many thoughts and memories crammed into my mind. AD: "One simply siphons the excess thoughts from one's mind . . . and examines them at one's leisure." HP: "You mean . . . that stuff's your thoughts?" AD: "Certainly" So Fudge and the rest of the Ministry could easily say that the vision is just what Harry THOUGHT happened.

@ comments talking about memory training and memories being altered .... 1.Slughorn's memory is tampered with, you can tell because it goes cloudy and stuff... Harry's memory of the graveyard would be crystal clear... 2. You don't need training to extract memories from someone, in HBP, Slughorn was very drunk, in DH, Snape was virtually dead, etc. 3. Fudge not believing Harry's crystal clear memory would be absolutely insane, just a way of JKR getting out of a situation where she's beaten herself in the universe she's created . This is the biggest plot hole there is, along with questions like why Time Turners,Veritaserum and FF aren't used more often. These people are WIZARDS, Wizards of extreme skill, as well as the Department of Mysteries, can INVENT spells... Voldy and Snape learn to fly, Snape invents Sectumsempra, Muffliato etc... when you think of it like that, the whole plot can almost fall to pieces... so we wouldn't have the engaging books that we do if JKR started bringing in really advanced magic too much.

Showing it to Fudge wouldn't have proven anything. Recall that Slughorn altered his memory before giving it to Dumbledore. Harry could have done the same. Also, for making Harry recount the events, it's possible that you have to be trained to be able to extract your own memories. Note that only adult wizards are shown to extract memories. Harry has had no training.

The same can be asked for Sirius' sake. Why would he spend years eluding capture when Harry, Ron, Hermione, and Lupin were available to show Peter Pettigrew was alive in the Shrieking Shack?

for the bit about Dumbledore making Harry relive the horror, its only because "Understanding is the first step to acceptance, and only with acceptance can there be recovery" also Harry needed to talk about it because "numbing the pain for a while will make it worse when you finally feel it." It was better for Harry to tell Dumbledore and Sirius what happened than for them to see it because it would help Harry to accept the death and to get over the death of Cedric, he would recover quicker, it would be less painful for him.- Jedhev

Actually this goes back to someone elses point about the truth potion. Why wouldn't they give Harry the truth potion? Do they really believe that a small kid who knows no mental magic or very little at this point can defeat it. Well get a moggle truth detector. Also why isn't Dumbledores word enough alone? He is the most powerful and trusted wizard around and yet people just dismis what he says?

But Harry didn't know how to pull the memories from his mind... And like others said, the MoM wouldn't believe his memories anyway

Because the point of this whole endeavour is to torture three young teenagers, with the bulk of the torture on Harry. Why else?

memories can be changed and modified just like Professor Slughorn modified his memory to make it look like he yelled at Tom Riddle

No matter what Harry said or did, the Ministry would make up some weak excuse to say that he was lying. They would say that Dumbledore had modified Harry’s memory or taught Harry how to change his own memory. There was no problem that Harry didn’t have evidence (he had a dead body, Cedric, Barty Crouch Jr., a portkey, the burning dark mark of Snape, the fleeing of Karkoroff, a dead Barty Crouch Sr. and Winky’s testimony of Barty Crouch Jr.’s life. The problem was that the Ministry just didn’t want to believe he was back. Fudge was weak-minded and didn’t want to deal with the problems that would have arose.

Just saying but Dumbledore never seemed to want the ministry knowing he even had the pensieve as to my guessing it was an ancient rune artifact (I think it was in the 4th or 5th book he noted quickly hiding it from them when they entered his office), maybe the trade of letting the ministry know of Voldemort and risking loosing the pensieve was just not worth it and he had a different plan for it.

Yes, people can tamper with memories, but it's hard to do and when most do, they end up looking like Slughorn's memory. But do you really think that a 4th year student like Harry Potter would've known how to tamper with his own memory? I think this is a legitimate plothole. They could've just extracted his memory/he would probably give it up voluntarily to them if it meant that he didn't have to relive it himself.

Well Snape was able to procure memories of when he was only ten years old so it is possible to get memories of your childhood though maybe not when you still are a child. Regardless I think that would have been a better way of dealing with it since Dumbledore uses exact quotes from Voldemort when talking to Harry in the Half Blood Prince which I just think seems a bit unlikely. After all the trauma he;d been through I doubt Harry would be directly quoting word for word everything everyone said.

Not only that, they did mention at one point that extracting a memory is not as easy as it seems and usually only adults can give memories. And it usually cannot be done of memories when they were "children" I do not know if this means a certain age like 16?

People can tamper with their memories. I imagine that if someone got really good at it, the fog wouldn't show up like it did with Slughorn.

Additional comment: by relived, I mean re-told the story by means of the pensieve.

Why do you think Peter is a coward. The only indication that he is,is from what he says and he it's certainly not going to admit betraying them because he believed in Voldemort.

the marauders allowed him in theyre group and trusted him enough to make the map with him maybe over ttime fear changed his heart

He was a coward, but he always had a great capacity for bravery. Cowardice was his actions, not his character.

because your house represents not the traits you have but the ones you value. Neville is a prime example of this.

Plus, YOU PEOPLE STOP SAYING GRYFFINDOR IS THE HOUSE OF GOOD AND SLYTHERIN THE EVIL. This is a STEREOTHYPE, because in Harry's eyes that's what he sees because he hates Malfoy and he likes to think that Gryffindors rule. EVERY HOUSE HAS ITS BAD AND GOOD TRAITS. There's no such thing as "good house and evil house", of course Slytherin tends to have death eaters, but there are also good people. It's utopic thinking the way Harry thinks. Everyone has dark and light inside them, that's what Sirius tells Harry. So yeah, Pettigrew should be in Gryffindor, whether you like it or not.

I don't think the "hat takes choice into account" explains this. It takes into account if the hat is in doubt, if the person is a hatstall. Otherwise, everyone would be sorted into the house they worship. What people most do is wanting to be someone they're not. Everyone would be sorted into the wrong houses for them. Here's my explanation: The houses have many attributes. Bravery is not the only attribute in Gryffindor, therefore he might have been sorted for other qualities. It's not just about being brave, or being a nerd, or being loyal or being cunning and ambitious. A person's personality is much more complex than that. That's the reason why Hermione was not in Ravenclaw, she might be intelligent but she possessed a whole lot more of attributes that gryffindors have. Sometimes a person's personality might have traits from all the houses but the hat must choose the one that they possess more. He wouldn't fit in slytherin because he's not ambitious nor cunning, he isn't confindent at all and he'd most likely be seen by his house mates like a loser, a weak person that has nothing to do with them. Pettigrew isn't loyal or generous and hard working, obviously wouldn't fit in Hufflepuff. And ravenclaw, no comments. However, he was daring enough to turn to Voldemort's side and abandon all his friends. He had the nerve to do this. It's a different kind of bravery, you see. Besides, he had the chance to kill Harry, but he didn't, because he remembered what Harry did to him. James Potter had also traits that we could seriously consider slytherin, since he bullyed people, but he was sorted in gryffindor. Every house has its own good and bad sides.

Remember you can choose your house. Just like Harry chose Gryfindor, when he was supposed to be in Slythirin. Peter wanted to be in Gryfindor because that was where Lupin, James, and Sirius were.

FOr the same reason Lockhart was in Ravenclaw, it's about the traits that you value more than the trais that you posess, and it's often why people fit into their houses. if you value hard work and intelligence, yu're more likely to work hard and further your intelligence. if you value loyalty above everything else, you're going to work damn hard to be loyal.

JK Rowling states on Pottermore that the hat is notorious for not admitting its mistakes. So there you have it, even though it uses legilimency it can make mistakes in sorting.

That's kinda like asking why was Harry sorted into the house of lions, why hermione wasn't in ravenclaw and why Neville didn't originally go to hufflepuff. People change as they mature. Originally Severus was more suited for slytherin and pettigrew gryffindor

Well, Pettigrew ,at that time was brave, I guess. Maybe the hat saw his potential, but Peter did not.

The sorting hat cannot predict the future, takes individual preference into account as well as which house would be of benefit. This is not a plot hole if you understand the deeper messages that rowling attempts to convey.

As Dumbledore once said "Sometimes I think we sort too soon." Why was Snape in Slytherin when he was called "the bravest man I ever knew?"

JK had to make choices. Putting Pettigrew in Gryffindor was easier than trying to explain why 3 Gryffs would associate with a Slytherin, or Hufflpuff. People from different houses know each other, they even date. But it would only be the Marauders who could truly keep Remus' affliction a secret. Personally I would have thought Snape would have followed Lily into Gryff, even if he wanted Slytherin.

James and Serious were together on the Hogwarts Express. There is NO evidence that either Remus or Pettigrew even knew who they were until they ended up in the same house. Peter never did anything in the books except play "kiss up". He was a coward, thru and thru. He only did one brave thing is his life and that got him killed. He killed out of fear, not nerve. As for Neville not belonging in Gryffindor--I have always felt that Neville was always brave on the inside.

The hat sorts the kids into where they belong. I mean Voldemort had all of the qualities of a "Griffindor" just in his evil ways.

It annoys me that Gryffindore is always treated like the best house that can do no wrong. You can be in the house and be unkind, and bravery and nerve and daring also coincides with recklessness and arrogance. There are no 'good and bad' houses! Slytherin is always villainised , but just because ambition is there main quality how does this make for cruelty all the time? Sure, a lot of bad wizards have cropped up from it, but how does that make each individual a, well, Voldemort? It also reflects how close minded the Gryffs are for stereotyping them. At your school are there four bodies of people that are brave, clever, loyal and ambitious? No. People are not just one or the other, everyone has their own complex personality. The housing system does not mark people as 'really brave' or 'so so brainy'. It looks into them and sees where they belong. Does Neville seem brave before the seventh book? No! He quakes at the thought of his grandma. Each house is not just a groupd of clever or loyal people, otherwise there would be four personalities in the wizarding world and I wouldn't read the books.

No, no, no. Peter Pettigrew was put in Gryffindor for a reason, just like he was made a Maurader for a reason. Furthermore, the Hat doesn't see into the future. If it had, it probably would've screamed "THIS BOY WILL GROW UP TO BE A KILLER" at VOLDEMORT'S sorting. It knew that Peter Pettigrew had drive, loyalty, and bravery. So it put him in Gryffindor.

Bravery isn't the only quality of Gryffindor. There is also nerve, chivalry and daringness, and they aren't just synonyms. For exemple, to kill someone, which i believe all Death Eaters have done, takes nerver, but is not an act of bravery

I believe Pettigrew changed during his years in Hogwarts. From the memories Harry witnessed it was clear that James and Sirius treated Peter a bit condescending. This is enough to create envy and even hatred in a man. Also coward as he may be, Pettigrew showed bravery when he helped Voldemort, even if it was bad. Nobody said all Gryffindors have to be good and kind.

I think pettigrew was a hatstall but in a fan fic the hat wants to put him in hufflpuff to teach him loyalty but peter begs the hat to put him in gryffindor with his friends. Like harry told albus severus that hat does take your opinion into account

Everyone changes, even he. He chould of been brave then but soon turned into a cowerd.

He had to be sorted somewhere. He was not smart enough for Ravenclaw, not loyal enough for Hufflepuff and not ambitious enough for Slytherin. He was a tinsywinsey bit brave.

McLaggen anyone?

he was brave. he just chose to use it in a negative way. as dumbledore said,"it is our choices that make us who we are". Pettigrew was brave to risk spying on the Order and relaying to Voldemort, just as Snape could be considered brave for spying on Voldemort for the Order. Pettigrew also had a lot of guts to take the mark and a lot more to sell his own friends to Voldie. He was brave, but in chose to use it for evil purposes.

Pettigrew did not die "freeing Harry and defying Voldemort". That is quite the stretch - Pettigrew died because of a moments hesitation when Harry reminds him that he once saved Peter's life. In that moment, the hand that was created by Voldemort for Peter betrayed him. I think the best explanations here have already been mentioned - Pettigrew idolized the qualities of Gryffindor, and failed to rise to these qualities when push came to shove (as opposed to Neville, who was a coward but ended up being very courageous).

Pettigrew chose Gryffindor just like Harry!

peter petigrew died freeing hary and defying voldemort. somthing that took great courage. he always had it in him, it just took extreme circumstances to bring it out

On top of lots of other good points made here. The sorting hat does make mistakes, It just usually refuses to admit to them. From Pottermore: The Sorting Hat is notorious for refusing to admit it has made a mistake in its sorting of a student. On those occasions when Slytherins behave altruistically or selflessly, when Ravenclaws flunk all their exams, when Hufflepuffs prove lazy yet academically gifted and when Gryffindors exhibit cowardice, the Hat steadfastly backs its original decision.

In addition to the people saying it was Pettigrew's choice, I believe JKR once mentioned that she believed the Hat considered him suitable because the traits of a Gryffindor - bravery, some kind of loyalty - were what Pettigrew idolized (not necessarily possessed).

He was sorted into Gryffindor because that's where he belonged when the sorting took place. In PoA he mentions that the information he gave up was tortured out of him. Maybe he had always had the intentions of a good wizard and only turned bad after he was tortured because he felt as though he had no other option after what he did.

Well it is also very possible that peter asked to be in Gryffindor as harry did, He may have never intended to be a dark wizard, but as Lupin and Sirius said he was attracted to power, and what sounds more powerful than Gryffindor the strong and brave?

People can change. Neville was a coward in the beginning so why wasn't he put in Hufflepuff? Neville rose to the occasion whereas Peter fell apart. Peter was a very easily intimidated boy. I'm sure he wanted to be put in Gryffindor to be popular amongst the entire school not just one house. In Gryffindor he would be more likely to find fame and glory, the qualities he wished to posses.

because he must have asked for it - that's the most important thing in hogwarts, that help will be given to those who ask. also, look how harry got sorted into gryffindor - because he asked.

Because JKR wanted to. If he hadn't then he wouldn't have been friends with the Marauders then there would have been no story.

He was brave, loyal (yes, loyalty is both a gryffindor and hufflepuff trait), and he had nerve. He kept Moony's secret through the school years and did not kill harry in the Malfoy Manor which may have been too late, but still showed his deeper, more innocent kid side from school. I do not think Wormtail was bad through out his life, it was daring and took nerve to join the death eaters. It may have been wrong from a certain point of view but he had that nerve. I do believe he always needed numbers. "friends" and so after school, felt his friends may not fancy him anymore, and tried to make some more permanent form of a "team" .. or of course he just asked the Sorting Hat to put him in Gryffindor.. :P

It's never said only Slytherin produces dark wizards, just that they have produced the most

the sorting hat considers what house you want to be put in

I think the better question is how come it was said only Slytherin produced dark wizards if Black was in Gryffindor and everyone believed him to be a Death Eater?

for all you that said he was loyal and thats why he was sorted to gryffindor first as was said before huf is the loyal house and secondly look what he did to his ''friends" he wasnt loyal at all and he was a down right coward always looking to be under the shadow of other more powerful people!! i still dont get how he made it to gryf!

Also, Ron was sorted into Gryffindor and could be cowardly at times. But, he shows his potential in the series.

I agree with the comment about Pettigrew having the potential to be a Gryffindor and the fact that he could be brave and courageous at times. But, those of you trying to explain why this isn't an error with "Pettigrew was loyal", I just wanted to point out the fact that loyalty is the main characteristic of a Hufflepuff.

When Peter was young his mind was clear and he had no intention of joining Voldemort, he began supporting Voldemort after he was sorted into Gryffindor and during his time at Hogwarts I feel like he deserved to be a Gryffindor but after that Pettigrew went towards the dark side but before he was a fine man.

I don't think that he chose to be in Gryffindor, that was a Harry thing alone. But I do think that Pettigrew was brave and loyal, like a Gryffindor should be. At times, yes, he was cowardly, but Harry was also, sometimes. Pettigrew still was loyal and fought against the good guys. And Slytherins aren't necessarily BAD, they're cunning, just like the books say, so Pettigrew SHOULDN'T be in Slytherin since he's not one bit cunning. Pettigrew should be in Gryffindor because he was courageous enough each day to live through Voldy's taunts and to fight for what he wanted.

The hat sorts according to one's potential. Peter had to potential to be a Gryffindor he just chose another path when he got older. Not everyone in Slytherin is bad they are cunning and ambitious. Peter was loyal,he had to have some degree of bravery in order to be a marauder. I

The hat takes your choice in to account as it did with Harry. Pettigrew must have wanted to be in Griffindor with his friends and so told the hat to put him in there

Just because you are afraid, doesn’t mean you aren’t brave. Courage is feeling fear, but continuing onwards. How can you be courageous if you aren’t really afraid of anything? Plus, every student has the ability to choose what House they want to be in, for example, in Harry’s case. He chose to be in Gryffindor. That’s a big thing in the books: It is YOUR decision, always. The hat just makes suggestions.

To the two people who said Neville and Ron were soted into Gryffindor because their parents were brave - I think you are extremely, EXTREMELY wrong, that you couldn't be farther from the truth. Ron and Neville were both very, very brave. Ancestory has nothing to do with it.

Though Pettigrew should have gone into Hufflepuff or Slytherin I think, he did hesitate to kill Harry. He probably didn't know what would happen if he did though, but if Voldemort HAD told him what would happen, only a true Gryffindor wouldn't have killed Harry.

Yeah, he should have been sorted into Hufflepuff

He was VERY loyal to Voldemort, though I suppose it was out of fear. I mean, he cut off his own hand.

I don't know why a lot of people assume that Hufflepuff would have suited him. Hufflepuff's are known for their loyalty, and Pettigrew wasn't loyal to his friends. He wasn't loyal to the Death Eaters or Voldemort either. He stayed with them out of fear. I imagine when he joined up, he did it because he was worried the Order would lose in the end so he wanted to be on the side that would most protect him. If you'll remember, it was a hufflepuff who stood up first to say that they wanted to stay and fight in book 7. I don't know what house he would belong to, to be honest. Gryffindor and hufflepuf don't suit him, he wasn't smart enough to be a ravenclaw and somehow I can't see him as a Slytherin either. Only thing I can agree on is that he asked to be a gryffindor.

Apologies, this was written over a beer. I meant Harry chose to be in Gryffindor, not slytherin. And pettigrew chose to be in gryffindor

As Dumbledore points out to Harry, (when Harry notes he can do all the things that Voldemort can do (I.e parseltongue, and with the fact the hat initially went to place him in slytherin, making him stress that he could become a dark wizard) he tells Harry that it is the CHOICES that make us who we are. Harry CHOSE to be in slytherin, and throughout the rest of the books demonstrated choices that showed who he was, and his character. The hat has no way of knowing what choices pettigrew might make later in life, just his potential to do things. Pettigrew could have been ambitious, courageous, and forceful in choosing grudgingly (much like Harry) but then he made his choices. Also the sorting hat in no way proclaims to be a 'beacon' fir bad wizards, as in it has no obligation or it seems desire to alert 'good' wizards to those it sees as 'bad', purely because it cannot see the future, merely the potential.

Could it possibly be because the sorting hat takes what you want into consideration? Harry specifically says that to Albus in "19 Years Later."

it isn't the Hat's place to judge, he is merely their to sort. working on this bases, the reason Peter was in Gryffindor could be simply he had no where TO go and asked to be in Gryffindor. he's not loyal and hardworking like a Hufflepuff. he's not cunning and ambitious like a slytherin, he's not smart like a Ravenclaw and he's not brave like a Gryffindor. so he asked to be in Gryffindor (because of his mother's pressure I'm assuming.

As other people (and Dumbledore) have said before me, people change over time. It's quite possible Pettigrew had the necessary traits to be sorted into Gryffindor in his first year at Hogwarts, but developed less desirable traits as time went on. Snape is a prime example of this: he was sorted into Slytherin when he was eleven, yet exemplified everything it means to be a Gryffindor at the time of his death.

The hat doesn't admit to making mistakes, but it does. This is probably one of them.

This is really simple if you think about it. The truth is that people change over time or possibly Peter felt diffently later. The sorting hat cannot tell the future no matter how powerful it is. While doing research into sorting you will find that only a worthy gryffindor would be able to pull the sword out of the sorting hat, I'm sure Peter would never be allowed to do so. But the saying "worthy" states that they're may be those that aren't quite as worthy. Not to mention as I said before, people change. Just because Draco was sorted into slytherin did not mean he became bad in the end, he seen the truth and became good. Peter was scared and worried and probably for tortured to gain information. Most death eaters are scared. It all goes into the fact that there is good and evil in everyone. Are choices make us who we are

1. Sorting hat takes your desires into consideration, so if Pettigrew *really* didn't want to be in Hufflepuff, Hat likely asked him which house he preferred. Perhaps he was brave in his first year. Who knows? 2. As far as I'm concerned, James Potter and Sirius Black SHOULD have both been in Slytherin. They were bullies, just like Goyle and Crabbe (only more charismatic). Both film and book canon paint them as bullies to Snape when they were children/at Hogwarts. The only one of the Marauders who I think deserved to be in Gryffindor was Lupin. 3. Did anyone else notice during Snape's last scene from the movie (Hallows 2) there was a Gryffindor scarf hanging in the boathouse ~just~ behind him? :)

If you remember the first book, nobody would believe Longbottom could have the required qualities to be in Gryffindor. Maybe the hat sees what is inside, but remember that the main message of Harry Potter series is that we are what we decide to be. So probably Pettigrew was just like Longbottom, but he ended to be very different from what he was expected to be.

I wrote the comment 8th down that said he was sort of brave in his own way. I hate Pettigrew. Don't get me wrong. But the elimination, I think, worked better than the bravery explanation. You say he would've made a better Hufflepuff? What's the main Hufflepuff trait? Loyalty. Oh, yeah, no one's more loyal than the scum who trades his friend's life for personal benefit. He's not exceptionally brave. Not really. But there are other Gryffindors who don't strike me as being extremely courageous. I mean, bravery isn't always a defining trait in a person. Someone can be brave but do some cowardly things. I think he desperately wanted to be brave, but was more concerned with what could better and elongate his life than what was right. The word "brave" doesn't constitute doing what is right. Voldemort is brave (to a certain extent), but I certainly can't see him being a Gryffindor. Also, he prized bravery. He practically hero-worshipped the Marauders. And people can change. He could have been braver when he was younger. Think of Snape; he went from being a deceitful, petty, jealous fool to the noble man he proved himself to be. James certainly acted like an 'arrogant toerag'. But he wasn't, not really. Sorry if this is kind of confusing. I have a lot of logic that I'm trying to dump on you.

@Comment above... Yeah well, hes telling snape that, not Pettigrew + I already know desires are a main factor with sorting. Pettigrew is just a pathetic, with no real desires or attibutes. Therefore he should have been in hufflepuff. If you want to retort this idea, please back up with related proof, not random quotes.

"you are a far braver man by far than karkoroff sometimes i think we sort to early' not an exact quote but there you go

LOL! The person always agreeing with the comment right above is clearly the same person. Not many people reply that close to each other, as this isn't a much visited website. “The Pot Hole in Kreacher's Tale (Deathly Hallows)”- On that as well, which further proves my accusation (sorry if I’m wrong, but hey, I’m just stating my opinion out there). Anyways, there is no exact proof that he had made friends of any kind in the train (as I have explained above). It was just Sirius and James (along with Snape and Lily). So you can not presume that he wanted to be with his non-made friends (yet). As explained above, attribute wise he is a Hufflepuff. However, he may have been just as confused as Harry as to which house to be sorted into (Harry didn't mind any house except Slytherin). The only two explanations I can think of is, as somebody stated above, Gryffindor is conveyed as the house of 'good' as opposed to 'evil' being Slytherin. So, Pettirgrew might have been scared of Slytherin so he chose to be in the house of 'good' were he won't be bullied. He may have desired to be in a house which consistent of the attributes of brave and incoherently strength- he wanted to find a 'good' and 'strong' house to which he could rely on. Throughout the book, it never, ever states that he wanted to be brave! So please, stop making assumptions with absolutely no proof. -AKZ

doesnt it say sumwhere that the sorting hat will listen to you if you really want to go in2 a house... like you can pretty much choose anyway? he probably just wanted to be with his m8s... i think its awkward how theres a 'best' house - gryffindor, and an obviously evil house that makes all the evil wizards, like shouldnt they put some early childhood education scheme in place for slytherins teaching the first years not to be evil?

^ this is what I believe is correct too. It is very possible Pettigrew was so desperate to be brave and courageous and heroic that the sorting hat saw this and put him into Gryffindor. As Harry specifically 'requested' not to be in Slytherin, Pettigrew could have been wishing for Gryffindor. The sorting hat looks at desires and wishes of the person it is sorting, not necessarily their actual qualities. This makes sense as all students are sorted at the age of 11 or 12, when we are not really sure who we are and what we want to be.

Takes choice into consideration. Come on now thats in the 2nd Book.

@The two guests above me- Contradictory to what you just said, I believe you are mistaken between bravery/ shivery and plain crowdedness/ saving your own skin. You could claim that Pettigrew traits are "brave" when you can quite easily say they are ‘great’, but being a "coward" is the exact opposite trait of a Gryffindor. Pettigrew work is far from intelligent (deducting Ravenclaw from the equation) and he’s not "evil" or an exceptionally great wizard for Slitherin. Therefore, through the process of "elimination" as you state, the only house to except "the rest", I believe he should have been sorted into Huffllepuff. Gryffindor never run away, this is further shown when the most amount of people stay for the battle of Hogwarts. However, less people stayed in Hufflepuff in comparison to Gryffindor. Therefore, loyalty and bravery are more purposeful for a trait of Gryffindor. As I stated above, he is much more of a coward then loyal, and he is unexceptional- therefore through the process of deduction/elimination; I believe he should have been in Hufflepuff. Also, I'm sure friendship would have rubbed off other Hufflepuff’s towards him- he would have no reason to betray them or need to be brave at all within Hufflepuff. -AKZ

According to Minerva McGonagall, all four of the houses have produced exceptional witches and wizards in their time, but due to Helga Hufflepuff's policy of accepting any student and its usually poor performance in the House Cup, Hufflepuff is often thought of as the place where students are sorted when they don't have any of the qualities of the other three houses, which have more defined attributes. Perhaps as a consequence of the broad principles of acceptance upon which it is founded, Hufflepuff has been stereotyped as the house of the unexceptional (or, more unkindly, as "a lot o' duffers"). This also corresponds with the Sorting Hat's song where it states: "Dear Hufflepuff, she took the rest and taught them all she knew." -AKZ

^ that is a really really good point about the process of elimination and how even in his weak backbone he did have a lot of bravery to pursue the things he did, I agree with your opinions and like your explanation

I think there was a side to Peter few others ever saw, one that he probably didn't even realize he had, but the hat did. If you analyze his actions, there is a sort of bravery. He's brave enough to go and befriend the Marauders when he was clearly not at their level, he was brave enough to go to Voldemort and be prepared to face their wrath if it didn't succeed. He was brave enough to orchestrate a whole scene showing Sirius as a murderer, brave enough to feign his own death, determined enough to stay a rat for years. He was brave enough to undergo the transformation into an Animagus for his friend, though it was obviously much harder for him then for the others. And it can't have been a fun experience being a tiny rat in a room with a rampaging werewolf, a dog, and a stag. Some of his manipulativeness is sort of Slytherin-esque, but I don't think he was clever or "evil" enough for that house. He's obviously not a Hufflepuff. Contradictory to what everyone seems to think, they aren't just leftovers. Hufflepuffs are very loyal--can't say that about Wormtail, now can you?--and accepting. He's not smart enough for Ravenclaw, that's for sure. So, by process of elimination and looking further into his actions, I would conclude that he's a Gryffindor, yeah.

For the Patel twins, they could have been muggle borns, plus one was smarter than the other, even with idential twins this happens. E.G. Zack and Cody (disney channel show)- one is braver, one is smarter by far. Hmm, Snape family was also in syltherin + he wanted to be in slytherin = that's he got into slytherin (bestowing the better judgement of the hat redundant). The choices you decide are the biggest factor in sorting. Like I just said, Sirius detested his family and he implied to James (on the train) "maybe I'll break the tradition". I just don't see how Pettigre would know which house he would want to be sorted into. In my opinion his he's way to useless, so he should have been in hufflepuff, J.K rowling doesn't state in any way, that he should have EVER been in gryfindoor. Although, she does state (indirectly) many factors why he should NOT be in gryfindoor. P.S= Why did you menstion Sirius mirror, that he gave to Harry? I know its not a plot hole, I wrote a whole article above stating why it is not a plot hole LOL.

Ok, which House your parents/family are/were in has no effect whatsoever on which House you are sorted into (the Patil twins are in two different Houses, Gryffindor & Ravenclaw, & Sirius was the first in his family to be in Gryffindor after generations of Slytherins!). There's a part in book 7 where Dumbledore says to Snape, "Sometimes I think we Sort too soon...", as in some people end up in Houses when they would be better suited to other Houses (in this case implying that Snape would have been better suited to Gryffindor, as Dumbledore says this after Snape says, "I am not such a coward as that."). So personally, I think it's that simple & not a pothole at all. (Nor is the thing about Harry's magic mirror, that is all perfectly explained in the books. Most of these things are not potholes if you'd only read the books a bunch of times.)

"I mean Nevelive, had the blood of 2 brave parents (ron was sorted into gryfindoor for the same reason, because of inhertiage). Pettigrew as far as we know, his hertiage has never been stated, we have no idea who are his parents." Sirius Black did state the he was always a cowards, and he always stayed with the people who were the toughest- therefore James was no longer considered to be the strongest, so he switched his allegiance (Pharaphrased). Therefore, I'm guessing he was always a coward- also in the 7th book, harry see's Pettigrew being overwhelmed by the fact that he was friends with James, Sirius and Lupin. Where did they say in the 3rd book, that he was similar to Neville? Hmm valid point there, that he could have matured into a cowards, contrary to Neville becoming brave. Also, Dumbledore saying the the sorting hat might sort too early (2nd book). Conversely, Pettigrew did not know sirius and james in the train (wasn't with them- in snape memory). Therefore, he couldn't have known which house he wanted to belong to, as he didn't know who was the strongest (which person he could depend on).

Perhaps Peter was different when he was in first year. The earliest we see of him when he is in fifth year in Snape's memory and at that point he doesn't seem very disloyal or overly cowardly. These negative traits might only have been his defining traits as he matured over the years. The teachers also compare him to Neville in the third book but I can't quite remember exactly what they say that could either refute or reject my suggestion

Additonal comment to the one posted above: I mean, this is a plothole, if pettigrew was in hufflepuff, james and lily would never had their fedelious charm broken- leading to arry not having a scar- leadin gto the prohecy not being created about him etc. So pettigrew being in gryffindor is key. In my opnion, J.K rowling should have spent more time thinking about pettigrew and as to why he was sorted into gryffindor. Please do reply back, and give me some feedback as to what you think :) Please do mind my grammer mistakes, I couldn't be asked to read it back :P

hmmmmm, OK. Many people have given reasons as to why he was sorted in to it, and I would like to state they are all wrong (unless proven otherwise). Did pettigrew even know James potter before he was sorted? If i recall, it was sirus and james talking alongisde lily and snape. NO PETTIGREW. Loyaliy can be shown in many forms, but when pettigrew owed his life to harry, I do not believe this be loyality. I mean, owing somebody and loyality are 2 different things. I mean, if you owed somebody money, it wouldn't mean you are loyal if you pay them back, it just means you are fuffling your in-depth. It makes you 'even' with the other person. I can understand if pettigrew never, but he has remorse- he isn't a bad guy, but that still doesn't make him loyal- because he does betray them many more times (just hesitating and showing a sign of remorse, meant betraying voldermort- which got him killed lol). He is much more suited for hufflepuff. I mean nevelive, had the blood of 2 brave parents (ron was sorted into gryfindoor for the same reason, because of inhertiage). Pettigrew as far as we know, his hertiage has never been stated, we have no idea who are his parents. For me, I just believe this is a miscalcuation on J.K rowling part- she never was good at maths. I mean she states in a interview, that she thought there should be many thousands of students within hogwards (and states it is the only school within britain- britain population is millions). In all fairness it is the best school, as it is under the best head master (best wizard in his generation) dumbledore (parahrased from hagrid, and the choclate frog card- and obviously we all know this- through conclusive information given to us about dumbledore greatness).

I ask that same question to myself all the time ¬_¬. Could anybody please explain this?

To the person who wants to know why they cancelled quidditch it was to use the space( ex. Build the maze.)

It's funny because wizards seem to think that sports with out action(soccer etc) are boring!(says ron)Thats why there is so much action in quiditch

And why did they cancel the quiddich season just for this tournament? It takes all of three hours, spread over several months.

it should also be noted that not even the judges show any clue as to what was going on. Dumbledore had to ask the mer-people about Harry in the second task and apparently had no clue that Harry and Cedric had disappeared in the third. Just how they can claim they made the tournament safer is beyond me.

magic maybe?

Um.... What about rally cars, bike races, etc.? I'm not blowing up your question, just saying that witnessing the victory is more common than you think. Not every sport has, or at least until recently, has had the ability to watch all the "action".

When Voldemort kiledl Harry, the wand should have belonged to Voldemort period!

You'll remember that 'that night, another wizard stole the wand and slit the brother's throat for good measure'. For all we know, the Elder Wand can only be won by disarming the person holding it. Most powerful wand in existence for a reason. But I think of it as this. Someone took the wand from Antioch. They didn't win it. Perhaps the wand never had a true owner or never really chose a wizard, until Harry disarmed Voldemort in the end. And you must remember, that it seemed to work best for Harry and Voldemort, who are both distant relatives(cousins) and both descendants of the Peverell line. So, maybe

@previous. What are you talking about? I don't remember Grindelwald killing Gregorovitch or Dumbledore killing Grindlewald.to get it. I also kinda doubt a wand-maker like Gregorovitch killed the previous wielder either. But apart from that, just forget what Harry says (even if it does explain your issue completely), there is actually only ONE incontrovertible truth about wandlore that really matters, "The wand chooses its master." Obviously there is some truth in the idea of "winning wands" but as for the details, Harry could be wrong, Dumbledore could be wrong. As Olivander says, the most learned wizards in wandlore have been studying it for centuries and still don't understand everything, so why presume Harry, a 17 year old wizard with about 6 months of basic introductory theory suddenly got it all right?

Harry took DRACO'S wand from Draco. Not the Elder wand. So how the hell did Harry end up "owning" the Elder wand if he never took the actual wand from Draco? Also, it makes no sense that the Elder wand has to be passed through death any other time, but all Draco has to do is Disarm him

I always got the impression that Dumbledore DID intend the wand to go to Snape and expected Harry to hate Snape enough to be capable of killing him or at least angry enough to fight Snape and defeat him and not escape from the better dueller if he had the opportunity.

You put too much trust in believing that Harry's conclusions are actually completely true. That his reasoning of who commands which wand and for which reason is entirely accurate. I believe JKR actually made the entire business intentionally confusing and that the whole "taking by force" business is not entirely correct. "The wand chooses its master" is the one indisputable rule of wandlore, no other rule really matters. And if for some reason JKR ever changes her mind and starts to write more wizarding stories, she actually has left an intentional opening to bring the Elder Wand back.

The whole allegiance-changing-when-the-owner-is-disarmed thing is probably one of the only legitimate plot holes in the series, and on this page. Kids disarm each other at school all the time and the issue has never been brought up before.

The wand didn't belong to Dumbledore when Voldemort took it from him. Voldemort would have had to take it from Draco in order for him to own it.

Regardless if Dumbledore expected Voldy to break into his tomb I would think that he'd not assume the wand to claim its' allegiance to Tom Riddle

Dumbledore was defeated and the wand chose Draco before Snape killed Dumbledore. If the wand doesn't choose a wizard at the death of its owner, it will die out as Harry describes to Dumbledore's painting.

It isn't true that the power of the wand dies with the holder, otherwise it would have died with the original Peverall brother that owned it. He was killed and the power of the wand transferred to his vanquisher, in other words, the person that killed him. Dumbledore DID originally plan for Severus Snape to have the Elder Wand, as a failsafe in case Voldemort did end up killing Harry. Then Severus would have been able to kill Voldemort with the wand. What Dumbledore DIDN'T count on was Voldemort killing Severus. That was why he petrified Harry, so that he'd witness Severus killing him, and so that when Voldemort looked into Harry's mind, he'd see Harry all upset about Severus killing Dumbledore, thus insuring Severus' cover as a spy.

Dumbledore intended for Snape to kill him, which would have caused the power of the wand to die with Dumbledore. Draco ruined the plan when he ambushed Dumbledore and disarmed him. When Draco did that, he became the elder wand's master, even though he never claimed the wand for himself. When Harry disarmed Draco at Malfoy Manor, Harry "defeated" Draco and so the wand became Harry's. Even though Voldemort stole the wand from Dumbledore's tomb, the wand already belonged to someone else, which means Voldemort didn't defeat take the wand from the master of the wand, he just took it from its hiding spot.

When the holder of the wand dies, the power of the wand dies with him. It cannot be rekindled if the wand is taken from his body. Sure, Voldemort could have taken the wand, but its power wouldn't have belonged to him

Sirius is reckless. When he first saw Harry's head in the fire, his first sentence wouldn't have been 'Go upstairs and use the mirror!' He would have just wanted to see Harry, and given the direction the conversation went in (almost immediately), any thought of it would have been driven from his mind. And maybe the irony of the mirror was lost on Harry, but it definitely was not lost on the reader. Harry was thinking of other ways to contact Sirius at that point. The discovery of it triggers a different action from Harry. Maybe he thought about the tragic irony of it later, and what would be the point in reading about that? There's no place for it in the denouement, really.

In one of the books (I believe OotP) Hermione makes a comment saying that maybe Sirius is trying to live through Harry because he's shut in so much and whatnot. So it could be assumed that he was wanting him to take the risk because he couldn't

Maybe the mirror was stolen from Sirius, by Mundungus :s Aberforth had the mirror that worked with Harry's, and he said he bought it from Dung. Maybe Mundungus stole it, didn't know what to do with it, and when Sirius died, dumbledore told aberforth about it, so Abe bought it

Sirius gives Harry the badly wrapped package in chapter 24 of OotP. He says it's a "way of letting me know if Snape's giving [Harry] a hard time". Harry doesn't know what it is yet but vows not to use it in order to keep Sirius from doing something foolhardy. Anyone who thinks "there wasn't enough time to use or fetch the mirror" needs to read the book again. After receiving the mirror, Harry uses Umbridge's fireplace TWICE. The first time wasn't urgent at all because he just wanted to ask Sirius about his father. If Sirius cared at all about his godson, he would have asked why he didn't use the mirror then. In fact he could have given Harry the mirror long before Christmas. If he preferred Harry be a risk-taker like James, why give him the mirror at all?! It's not even a good plot point for tragic irony, as the irony of the mirror is completely lost on Harry when he finally opens the package. Instead of realizing he could have talked to Sirius the whole time, Harry tries to contact Sirius from the dead with the mirror. Rowling and her editors should have removed it from the book entirely.

Sirius clears to harry the mirrors function if my memory serves me correctly, however harry was intent on not using it so as not to make sirius do something rash like coming up to the school, no matter how bad snape treated him and after a year he forgot it at the bottom of his trunk, besides he couldnt think reasonabally since he fainted and was really scared for his godfathers fate. And sirius liked the way harry was more adventrous like james so he may have preffered harry to break into umbidges office to speak to him rather than use the mirror and sirius guiltily hoped harry might be expelled so he would go and stay with him.

Sirius gives Harry a wrapped parcel (containing the mirror) and Harry leaves it in the bottom of his trunk and forgets about it because, lets be honest, he has a rough year, and probably wouldn't remember it. Its a good plot point because it adds tragedy, when he finally finds the mirror after Sirius dies Harry realises that if he had remembered the package to start with then its possible that not of that would have happened and Sirius might still be alive.

Sirius didn't tell Harry to use the Mirror because Rowling didn't want it to happen that way. Plot Holes happen for a reason: The author is so caught up with having things happen in the way they have planned that they disregard logic and hope their readers overlook any alternative way that things could have been handled rather than revise their own plans to take such things into account. An easy solution for this would have been if Rowling written had Sirius tell Harry to use the Mirror for any further communication later on only to have Sirius suspiciously absent (being upstairs concerned with nursing an injured Buckbeak) when Harry called again, leaving Kreacher free to take the call and succeed in his mission by lying to Harry about what Sirius was up to.

This is really just another version of the same plot hole that starches the whole series: they can do magic only when it's time to introduce a new plot device; they forget they can do magic 90% of the time. If you had those skillz you wouldn't do anything without magic. Oops, must have forgot we know how to TURN BACK TIME OR BE IN TWO PLACES AT ONCE!

Here's something everyone seems to forget on all of these plotholes. In book five, harry's only fifteen and he really doesn't have an adult to turn to for guidance. They keep disappearing on him.

He didn't have time Harry wanted to talk about James immediately then had to leave quickly when he heard someone coming

Sirius Black is in no way proper parenting material. Regardless of 'when' Harry discovered the mirror, Sirius could have easily told him about it. I don't know what was running through Lily's mind when she allowed James to select Sirius as godfather. Remus would have been much better. Too bad about that werewolf thing...

Harry didn't know about the mirror, since Sirius couldn't tell him at the station - it was too risky. Sirius could obviously tell that Harry was in a bit of a hurry and needed information. If Sirius had told Harry to use the mirror right there, Harry would have to leave Umbridge's office, go to his dorm, dig through his trunk until he found it, and THEN talked to Sirius. Harry just didn't have that kind of time. And Sirius may have been going to tell Harry, but Umbridge caught them before the coversation was over.

Harry never opened the mirror, until the end of the book. He had completely forgotten about it.

Harry didn't open the mirror until the end of the book when he was packing up his things when Sirius was dead. He had no idea that it was a two way mirror. If he did open it beforehand and contacted Sirius through it, they would never have gone to the ministry, the death eaters would never have been arrested, Sirius wouldn't have died and the Ministry would have never seen Voldemort and still thought Harry and Dumbledore were lying. And when he did contact Sirius in the fireplace Sirius had things to tell him about the Order and the outside that he probably forgot about the mirror himself. Also, Harry isn't perfect, his rash decision to use the fireplace shows a flaw in his character that many of the readers will be able to relate too.

Sirius couldn't tell him at the station because Harry had to go. And sending an owl would have been too risky. Marry forgot about the package and he eventually opened it after Sirius had died and smashed it. Because he was so angry. But because of the mirror remember that dumbledore's bother saved him from the ms toys dungeon and promised death.

No way Harry didn't know how the mirror worked. Sirius has explained it to him. Using the mirror also will not harm Sirius at all since he was comfortably staying in Grimauld Place and can use it without the need of showing himself anywhere. It's a big big plot hole.

Harry never knew it was a two way mirror until after Sirius' death. And after what was going on, I agree with a comment above that the last thing Sirius would think about is the mirror with so many things to talk about.

not a plot hole just lack of advice

You have kind have answered yourself "Harry says he just wanted to talk about his dad" Sirius missed James aswell and knew how much it meant to Harry, He probably didnt want to tell Harry to use the Mirror as a thought of insensitvity.

Sorry guys of the grammer mistakes/ typo's, there is no edit button, so I can't go back and change it (maybe because I don't have an account, as I am a guest). I just read it back, there are quite a few mistakes- e.g. serious = sirius , preent = present + repeating word at the start and end of a sentence- like 'now'= "Now you may be thinking now" it should be: 'Now you may be thinking', (removing the double now). Or= "Aside from his already menstioned mistakes he mensions" when it should be 'aside from his already menstioned mistakes,' (cutting out the "he mensions"- being a repeat). Wow, I wrote a lot and I have a english exam tomorrow ¬_¬ LOL. Explains why I wrote so much.

Spelling check= Serious= sirius (sorry for that mistake) portayed= portrayed (typo) Additional comment: Therefore, you can't blame Harry at all, he never knew what it did- all he wanted to do, was avoid using it as he never wanted sirius to get in trouble- can you see the irony now, its absolutely absurd, but in a good/ fustrating way. Now you may be thinking now, it's sirius black falut- well to an extent I agree with you, however he did have his reasons as to why he doesn't menstion it. Firstly, sirius black was in an arguement with snape. He was planning on giving the mirror to harry, before snape intruded. Out of fustration he gave harry the mirror, and said: (paraphrasing) if you ever have a problem with snape, just use this *gives the mirror, wrapped up- so harry had no clue as to what it is*. Sirius out of fustration and running out of time, proberly thought he had explained/ thought harry knew what it would do, by the way he gave it. Harry obviously, through it was something that would get sirius into further trouble, so he swore never to open it (biggest mistake , on serious half/ tiny bit on harry part.) Serious black should have given this at the begging of the year, as he wouldn't have had to do all those fireplace metting then- In the end he was stopped by umbridge from doing anymore, as he was almost caught. However, dumbledore knew of the mirror function. Finally we get down to dumblefore being at falut. Ok, as he menstioned he made a grave mistake; being smarter, than normal men, his mistakes tend to be bigger than other- paraphrased from his talk with harry. Aside from his already menstioned mistakes he mensions, his decision not to talk to harry also meant that harry could not talk about sirius black preent, which would have lead to dumbledore telling him function of the mirror. Overall, I don't think this is a unintended plot hole, it was planned by J.K Rowling. Just to add a ironic twist, to the plot.

This was quite ironic/ absurd in a sense. Harry could have comunicated with serious through the mirror, to double check if serious was there. Whats ironic, is the fact that they communicated dangerously (through the fireplace) but always had the chance to communicate safely. Harry instinctively went in a hurry to save serious through rash measures, when sirius black had given him an item which was to be used if harry was ever in trouble, but on the contrary it was the other way around. Because of that, it didn't even flash harry mind to use it- showing the mirror at the end, just added to the irony- which can be comprehended 2 books later, in the 7th book, after we understand the significance of the mirror. J.K rowling was very well aware of this fact, and she even portayed the writing at the end of the 5th book in such a significant way (read the 5th book back, you will be killing yourself over, why harry doesn't look at the darn mirror).

When Harry was being handed it he tried to resist, telling Sirus that he didn't want him to get caught; in the end he gave in to keep his uncle happy, but never planned on using it. He threw it in his trunk and forgot about it; we are told that Sirus saw James in Harry; and James and Sirus would have thought it great craic to break into a teachers office to contact someone on the outside world, and was so happy to see Harry that he would have completely forgotten about the two way mirror.

Does everyone remember everything? Harry had so many things to tell him, and so did Sirius, so is the first think that you think about a mirror? No, I didn't think so. And by the way, Harry didn't know what the mirror did, and he was kind of afraid of using it. Did you actually read the books thouroughly?

I think book 5 has the most plot holes. Sirius had a chance to tell Harry to use the mirror when he first appeared at the fireplace but he didn't. I also find it weird that the magical community hasn't so much invented a popular communication device like mobile phones while Sirius had been using a 3G mirror for years. Surely if it was possible to do that with magic then everyone else would do it instead of using owls (which is so impractical) and there's just no way to intercept a 3G mirror like that

I personally dont understand why molly would have dissaproved of the mirror, it was a safe way for harry to communicate. It seems a little dumb not to just have told harry even if he didnt open it right then and there

sirius liked recklessness, he wanted harry to be a rebel like his dad... he would have thought it an adventure to break in to umbridge's office. Also he was probably a little concern, about harry coming to talk maybe he simply forgot.

Harry didn't know about the mirror until after Sirius died. athough i think that sirius should have told him to open the present, but harry didn't want to open it once he got it bec. he thought that whatever it was was going to expose sirius to the public. sirius told him it was something to use when he needed him (harry thought it would bring sirius to him.) that is the way i understood it.

-Oh cool! My godson broke into that fat frog's office just to use the floo! I'm so prou- oh wait, he wants to talk about his father (serious moment). As for Harry not using the mirror: he thought that it get sirius in trouble, so he stuffed in his trunk and promptly forgot about it. Even if he wasn't stressed out he wouldn't have even think about it.

For an attention-starved orphan with an easy ticket to ranting through a mirror that could safely communicate with his godfather. I think it was weak writing and characterization on Harry's part. He should have jumped at every opportunity to get to know Sirius.

he didn't open the package until after Sirius died :(

Harry was panicking. He thought Sirius was dead. How would the mirror have worked then? -_-

I don't know why Sirius didn't remind him, maybe just weak thinking on Sirius's part, but when Harry fell asleep during the HIstory of Magic examination, I thought that it was Harry's default thinking...he usually is this rash, so it would be likely of him to forget the mirror. But I dont know why Sirius didn't tell him. :/

This was one of the most retarded parts in that book.

that always made me so mad, that he didnt just look at the mirror. oh well.

I might be wrong, but I don't think that Harry ever opened the package that the mirror was in until after sirius died. But yeah, if Harry used it after seeing Voldemort torturing sirius, sirius wouldn't have died.

Could he have thought Harry had broken it and decided not to mention it?

Owl is easier. Can you imagine pinpointing a location of a person each time to get in contact with them? Then having to appear suddenly in front of them to have your conversation? Urgent matters, sure. but it's more formal to send a letter (the owl will find the person for you). As for other forms of instant communication? Okay, maybe it isnt as advanced as Muggle texting and phone calls. But they do have other ways of instant communication. The rings in Book 5 to alert DA members of the upcoming meetings. Sirius's mirror. Floo powder. They don't use electricity or batteries, what makes you think it would be normal to carry a cell phone. I agree it is stupid for emergencies (see Book 5), but thats the norm in the Wizarding world. Sort of like how us Muggles were before all the fancy tech.

My initial thought was, if Time Turners are readily available, then it woud be easy for the Ministry to find out who set Sirius free. Just go back in time and see what has happened! But then, why hasn't the Time Turners been used in the criminal trials. Surely it isn't that difficult to go back in time, being invisible with a proper disillusionment charm, and see what has happened. Sirius would not be wrongly convicted then. No one will be falsely imprisoned. I just can't think of a better use of the time turners.

Somebody said "Time-Turners only go back 12 hour", that's not true. Because in Pottermore, JKR said that Eloise Minttumble went from 1899 to 1402, and even though it was catastrophic, she still managed to travel back there.

1. The Time Turners were all destroyed in the Department of Mysteries in the 5th book. 2. Time Turners only go back 12 hours, so it would have been pretty useless for the most part. 3. I would have made the book really boring.

I know it was used for this exact reason in PoA, but using it to save people would have undermined the theme of death that drives a lot of The Deathly Hallows. Voldemort tries to conquer death by evading it; Harry succeeds in conquering death by embracing it. You can go back and safe Lupin and Fred after a message like that. Even if the time-turners hadn't been destroyed...

Jk rowlings said the time turners where a major plot fall for her and that's why she had them destroyed in the 5th book

In the fifth book when Harry goes to the Ministry of Magic with some of the DA, in attempt to rescue Sirius they destroy all the time turners there.

why didn't voldemort use the time turner to make heaps of verions or decoys of himself to trick harry and make it harder for harry and everyone else

Think about it, though. Harry and Hermione only go back to save innocent people - they do not kill anyone. Personally, I think that the Time-Turner can be used to save people, but it cannot be used for murder.

Not necessarily, You can change the past if in the intended use of the time machine was not interfered or changed to begin with. Like HG Wells the Time Machine, in order of the Time machine to exist, his wife had to die, since the ONLY reason why he created it was to save her. If he had built it before she died then he could save her and change the future, because it was built not for that sole use. Although, because if she lived, the time machine would have never been built, hence the Paradox. But in this case, it wouldn't be used to change something that it wasn't created to change, therefore the change could be done. LIke in BTTF,book Marty bought, and Biff stole changed the past, So they had to go back to fix it. In Deja Vu with Denzel Washington, he went back in the past before the blast happened saved Paula Patton from being killed, and stopped hundreds of people from dying in an explosion. So since there is no specific date as to when the time turner was created or why it was created, it can be used to change the past. There are obviously more than just the one. So I am willing to bet that the sole purpose was not to Kill Tom Riddle. Therefore, he could have been killed.

The one 18 below this comment makes the perfect point. I recommend reading the short story "Wikihistory" by Desmond Warzel, it is rather illuminating (sorry, can't link directly, just google it).

The one 4 below me i think i recognise, i think its the plot of a harry potter fanfiction

Because changing something that happened to long ago is so wrong. It would change everything and it is unethical and immoral. That's just common time travel knowledge. The only reason harry and hermione went back in the third book was because they could change things yet the events still happen. Dumbledore knew this he would not of sent them back otherwise. It's very complicated sometimes. But you would never change something so long ago as voldemort being born or something.

The one below I think is fake because I have never heard of it. But I will plus it anyway for being such an amazing story.

It is used again, after the events of the last book. Voldemort is actually Harry Potter in the future. After the events of the 7 books, Harry starts to dip into some darker magic. He begins his descent into evil and decides the he has become a monster, become too similar to the evil that he had faced while still in school. In his torment, he decides to rid the world of his evil ways, and performs a miraculous feat, Voldemort's "final spell", which is essentially an extended version of the Time Turner spell. He goes back in time to attempt to kill himself as a baby, so that he will never grow up to be who he became. He is, however, unable to kill himself (for obvious reasons) and ends up just leaving a scar on Harry's face (his own). You don't think that a powerful spell cast by an extrememly powerful wizard would be able to be stopped by... a child? He attempts to kill himself as a baby, fails, and he is instantly crushed by the realization that he is actually Voldemort himself. He spins out of control and throughout the years that follow, furiously attempts to kill himself, over and over.

It Voldemort had gone back in time to kill Harry as he failed to do so in the Graveyard, then Harry would have died in the graveyard. Do you know what this means? Future Voldemort would have no MOTIVATION to go back in time to kill Harry as another Voldemort would have been there when HE was trying to kill Harry. Furthermore, they were all smashed at the end of the fifth book, and during all of Order of the Phoenix Harry was seen as an untrustworthy lunatic who would never had been allowed to apply for a time turner. Also, time turners turn back HOURS. One turn for one hour. They would have to calculate the exact number of hours to go that far back which would require some time and you might not even get it right.

Harry and Hermione did not change anything. they were free to act as agents with fore knowledge and so able to accomplish tasks that they could not do the first time around. Buckbeak did not die the first time around. Harry and pals heard the axe fall and Hagrid howl so they assumed Buckbeak was dead but when the executioner saw that Buckbeak had escaped he swung his axe into the chopping stump and Hagrid shouted in triumph. Later, Harry thought he saw his father then realised it was himself on the second time through. The time turner does not create new timelines things will happen as they have already happened. This is not because of events being predetermind just that whatever action is taken to change the events have already failed.

You shall all watch the movie '' butterfly's effect'' to see why it is not wise to try to change the past

going back that far in time has its complications, and the person to do tso has to waste 50 years of his lives even if he does manage 50 years will make him forget everything and he will just ruin the present and give far worse results and it would create a paradox he kills voldemort then how will he go back to a future without voldemort and so on....

In the third book, Hermione turns the time turner back in to McGonnagal.

Not really, as number 1 its illegal and number 2 this is a time travel issue not a JK plot hole. Even when talking about time travel generally, if anyone had done that then it obviously hadnt made a difference because voldemort was still alive. also its mentioned how dangerous it is to change time etc etc.

Because they destroyed all of them in the 5th year after they went to the ministry of magic!

In POA, there is an unresolved issue. I really do believe it was overlooked by JK, accidentally overlooked that is. The Harry and Hermione who return to the hospital wing belong to another time line, not the one they seem (as well as Dumbledore) happy to become part of as they go to join a three-hours-younger-than-them Ron. This on its own still isn't it, the two that left to go off to do their stuff, thus vacating and allowing the time-travellers back in, could themselves easily return three hours later. It is only readers' assumptions that this was dealt with, maybe that's fair enough but maybe it isn't, but it wasn't made clear in the book.

Oh & even if Dumbledore wanted to go back in time & destroy the horcruxes, he couldn't because they were all destroyed in OOTP, remember? And the couldn't kill a child saying 'OH HE'S GOIN TO BE AN EVIL WIZARD WHEN HE'S OLDER!', that'll just get them thrown in Azkaban. :)

They wouldn't have been able to kill voldemort anyway because they would have to destroy the horcruxes first & I doubt that dumbeldore knew about the horcruxes then. If he did, he would've set out to destroy them way earlier than the 6th book:)

>Spades Slick: Crowbar. Time turner. Make it happen.

They were all destroyed!?!? Why couldn't they just build more?!? Did they also destroy the "how-to-build-a-time-turner" instruction sheet?

It's because when Harry and the others went to the Ministry to "rescue" Sirius, they smashed the entire supply of time turners. There is reference made to this in the subsequent books.

Because of the simple rule of time travel that exists in all time travel books, movies, and songs that I've ever come across: You can't change the past. In fact, this is usually the main point of these time travel stories. Buckbeak wasn't 1st killed and then brought back to life. Sirius wasn't 1st kissed, then unkissed. Neither was Harry. The 2nd time that night was lived changed nothing. It showed what had happened the 1st time that readers and the 1st Harry, Ron, and Hermione had missed. It was like a story from the point of view of 2 characters, where the 1st character misses much of a story and makes assumptions. Then we see it from the 2nd characters point of view, and all is made clear. I thought this was explained when Harry realized that HE was the person who saved himself across the lake. Also when Hermione holds Harry back from stopped Wormtail from morphing- she says something like, "When we live through that moment the 1st time, no one stopped Wormtail from morphing. So we can't now. It just wouldn't work." When they experienced that night the 1st time, it was experienced the same way it was the 2nd time. Voldemort was not killed or arrested as an 11 year old. He was not taken out through a secret attack by the order before he attack the Potters. So no one could go back in history and make those events happen. Since no one had killed young voldemort, some one going back to do so would be prevented or he'd come back to life or who knows what. But it hadn't happened, so they knew that they couldn't go back and make it happen. Seeing how Dumbledore planned this use of the time turner (distracting the executioner, telling Hermione what to do, etc), I think there would have been at least a chance that the time turners would have been used in the future against Voldemort had they not been destroyed. But you'd have to plan in the past and set things up for your 2nd trip through the same time if you wanted them to work.

I would like to point out to someone who has commented previosly that Harry's magic was detected in the second because Dobby probably did it to make sure it was noticed. Third because Harry probably had extra surveillance because of the Sirius Black situation. And fifth of course because of Fudge's paranoia/ Umbridge's cruel/ ambitious desperation for promotion/ acknowledgement

well most time travel things that would have use (e.g. killing/ arresting tom riddle as a child or changing his childhood) would create a paradox where they would only end up doing it because they knew what he would become therefore if he didn't become what he did, there would be no reason to go back in time and it wouldn't be done. Also, when Harry, Ron and Hermione were "watching" Buckbeak's execution they couldn't see it clearly from their position. Dumbledore who knew of Sirius' innocence stalled the executioners with talk because he knew Hermione had the time turner and wouuld know they were smart enough to figure out the Buckbeak thing although if anyone would like to argue I would like proof from the book

Too risky, dumbledore wouldn't be that careless!

The books make it clear that using time-turners is extremely dangerous and heavily controlled by the ministry. Hermione HAD to hand it back to McGonagal at the end of her 3rd year because she no longer needed it (for any official reasons at least). Then later all the time-turners were destroyed anyway

just saying... the ministry can only detect magic being preformed not who preformed it i.e. whether the person was under age or not, this is why they expect parents to uphold this law... the reason harry was 'caught' in the 2nd, 3rd and 5th books is because he is the only wizard in the area and there for the only person likely to use magic- this is the reason they cant use magic when extracting harry from privet drive in the 7th book... this is also the reason that riddle wasnt accused of murdering his family (even though no one knew they were related-apart from dumbledore) as marvolo, an overage wizard lived within the area..

in the 5th book..it has been said that all time turners were destroyed during the fight in the DOM

Quite simply because Rowling realized that by introducing time travel in order to give the third book a novel ending she opened a Pandora's Box of "what ifs" and "why didn't theys" and had to slam it shut again. She made Hermione say that she handed her Time Turner back in and went even further to have "the Ministry's entire stock" of them destroyed and hope that the readership would forget about it. The damage, however, was done.

Easy. Hermione had to return the time turner at the end of book 3.

There is a scene in OOTP where all the time turners are destroyed. Also time travel is more complicated then you're implying.

Hermione gave the time turner back to McGonagall at the end of the third book.

All magic used around someone underage is detected it states that in the series they just expect adult wizards to uphold the rule of no underage magic while in there house .. it would not have mattered if he used someone else's wand Harry didn't use a wand to make he's aunt blow up like a balloon but they still detected it so they would have known someone underage was atleast there and your telling me dumbledore wouldn't have put it together riddle family murdered when he was keeping a close eye on Tom riddle ...

It doenst matter if he used someone else's wand ... They can decected magic used in a wizards house with someone underage in it they just trust parents to manage it clearly states that in the book ... It was a giant over look on the book series they would Be able to tell it was someone underage who did it ... And your telling me dumbledore wouldn't have put two and two together riddle family murdered when he knew he was named after he's dad Tom riddle?

Gee, what do you think, should you go back in time two decades and then LIVE THE TIME AGAIN. I bet even Voldy would be feeling a bit tired after living 20 more years than necessary (technically, some 15 or so, but anyway)

Underaged magic can't be detected in an adult's witch or wizards house, and seeing as when voldermort attacked his uncle, he was in an adult's wizard's house, his use of underaged magic was not deteacted by the ministry. And the reason why his underaged magic was not deteacted when he killed his dad and grandparents in their muggle house was because he used his uncle's wand to kill them.

How is this even number one the biggest hole is underage magic when voldemort killed he's dad and grandparents he was in a non wizard house so why couldn't they tell a underage wizard did it? And he used all those spells on he's uncle but voldemort was underage so they would have know what spells where used and known morfin was innocent

Oh FFS guys this is really not hard. The series deals with destinies and prophecies therefore we know that this element of the plot is present. Now a time turner is obviously tied in with ones "destiny" not will. Time is in a closed loop, so when the Harry and hermione went back, they were destined to spin that time turner and do what had already happened, therefore closing the loop. If one decided to try to alter destiny then the loop would not be closed and they would Cease to exist.

This one is actually kind of easy. If you think about it, to use a time-turner, you must be standing in one particular place. When Sirius was put behind bars to be sent to Azkaban, Ron, Harry and Hermione were in the hospital. Hermione used the time turner in the hospital, which means that when time was reversed to a few hours ago, Hermione and Harry had to travel from the hospital to the rest of the places. They also had to make sure they ended up in the hospital before time caught up - otherwise they could really mess up things. Using the time turner means you have to go from the place you've used the time turner, to where you're trying to change things. Now if Harry had to go to save his parents, assume he apparates to Godric's Hollow and then uses the time turner (and that will take years i suppose). Now Harry will be the same old Harry (even age wise), but remember that during his parents' death, he's an infant. How can he kill Voldemort (or stop him from killing his parents) without being seen by anyone? And if he is seen, it is a dangerous thing in time. Also, he is changing events that are so major that they could completely mess up with time. So he'll be living in the turned time world, with his parents, with his infant form, until time finally catches up? Hello? There can't be two Harry's living amongst each other. That's why Harry and Hermione were so careful not to be seen by their past selves.

Hermione turned in her Time Turner in the third book then they were all destroyed in the fifth book at the Battle of the Department of Mysteries.

If you look up A Very Potter Sequel on Youtube by Starkidpotter then you'll see that Lucius Malfoy uses the time turner to go back in time to kill Harry. He fails. What happened happened.

All of you aren't thinking this through enough. The time turners can obviously be used to travel in time. It would not be good if you caused a paradox, like killing Voldemort early on. However, there are no restrictions on going back in time and causing something to happen later. Like, I go back in time, do something, use poison on him, then later, after I got back, he dies. Something like that could be achieved very easily. In the case of saving people who have died, that is also easy. When you know all that happened after and during the death, it should be easy to fake the death (they have MAGIC.) In both cases, there is no actual change that causes a paradox, and therefore could have no ill effects. -Gorton

In the third book Harry was saved by a patronus. It was only after the time turner was used that harry cast the patronus, indicating that time-turners negate free will, that everything to do with them is fixed, and will happen no matter what we do. hence, Voldemort couldn't be killed by one.

Time turners are dangerous. If you take a chance of going back in time, it could get you killed. Also, who says people weren't doing it? Events transpired as they did. Using time turners to go back and fix something that has occurred means that something, possibly your death took place to prevent you from changing it. Harry and Hermione did it before Sirius's fate was known. - Guy

In all of the Harry Potter books, and other books by J.K. Rowling about the wizarding world, the fact that you cannot bring the dead back to life has been reiterated over and over!!! Hermione was required to hand in the time turner- thats why they didnt use it again...and for other serious problems, well there'd be way too many things that could go wrong if the ministry intereferred.

Hermione was required to hand in the time-turner at the end of the third year, as in her fourth year she would be taking the normal amount of classes. In the fifth book, the ministry's stock of time-turners is destroyed, meaning, no time-turners, hence no time-travel. And also the Doctor decdied to appear as a snivveling Barty Crouch Jr without the Tardis.

Well, if you go to youtube and look up how Harry Potter should have ended. Snape goes back in time, using the time turner, and kills Voldemort.

Because there is a limit as to how long you can travel back (few turns will do). Plus you can only time-travel within the vicinity.

For those of you wo are say that they didn't use time-turners because the ministry's stock got destroyed. What about the other Time-Turners though, the one's that weren't in the ministry. Surley they could have used those?

YOU CANNOT CHANGE TIME. If someone dies you cannot go back in time and interfer, they are still going to die, perhaps even in a different way. Dumbledore is a lot more manipulative then people give him credit for, he needs Sirius and may as well do something nice for Hagrid and save buckbeak. Neither of them died in the 3rd book because they were always meant to save buckbeak and they went back in time (actually spinning the time turner) while Sirus was still in the holding cell, Harry was always ment to save him. The time turner is ministry Regulated and was only supposed to be used for educational purposes. They wer destroyed in the fifth book, in the fourth book they could not go to the ministry and say 'hey we need a time turner to go and stop voldemort from rising and cedric from dying' They would have said voldemort is not risen and that you cannot bring back the dead. Which you cant. And if you could a goverment could not go around giving a free pass for people to go back in time and make sure people didnt die. What if they mess up the time stream? What if they change something else? What if saving one person results in another ones death? Hermoine never changed anythng she was just in two places at once and they never changed the timeline, they were always going to save Sirus and Buckbeak

I know! They should have went back and SAVED DOBBY!!

if you mess with time, seriously bad things can happen, and there's no telling what they will be, and no matter how many times you go back, you may not be able to put things right. Plus they were all destroyed... JKR probably included this to avoid people thinking of anything like this.^^^^

the question is not "why don't harry, ron, and hermione use the time turner again," it's "why doesn't ANYONE use a time turner to solve serious problems?" stop saying "hermione had to give it back." you don't think dumbledore could have gotten another one? and i hate the idea that "people with time turners have to make sure the don't see themselves, or else they'd go crazy." if i had a time turner and saw myself, my first thought would be "hmm, i guess in a couple hours i'll use the time turner and come back to this time," not "oh my god, is that me? i'm going crazy!" and how long would it take for the future you to just explain "hey, don't worry, it's just me. i used the time turner." as long as you never went back beyond when you got the time turner, i think you'd be fine.

Yes, yes, no limitations... besides the Department of Mysteries which specifically controlled them and regulated their use. If you care to remember, Voldemort couldn't get into the Department of Mysteries until Harry broke into it. And all of the Time Turners were destroyed during the firefight that took place there.

Because somewhere it says that timeturners can only go back i time an hour or two which in most situations isn't worthwhile enough. You can't go ack and change 10 years, 1 ear, 1 month, 1 week, heck, 1 day ago. You probably cannot change 12 hours ago. You could change minor problems within the last couple hours like we all have but anyone wise and responsible will recognize that such petty things aren't work the risks of manipulating time

exactly like 2 comments back.

Why is everyone saying it was destroyed after HP5.What about the earlier time.Surely that thing was not created just for Hermione.It always existed.And if no one can bring the dead back.How Harry and Hermione were able to bring Buckbeak back from death?

Hermione has to give hers back. In the 4th book, the ministry is still in power and rigorously controls them. At the end of the fifth they get destroyed. Simple

That would create a paradox. Say, if Harry1 took a Time Turner before they were all destroyed in the 5th book, went back in time, killed Voldemort before Voldemort killed his parents, why would Harry2 go back if he had his parents and Voldemort is dead? Because he DOESN'T go back in time, the timeline reverts back to the first one, thus creating an infinite loop that oscilates back and forth between the two timelines (This is of course assuming nothing else happens and Harry doesn't, say, become his father or something). THAT IS NOT A GOOD STORY. Besides, I'm certain that Harry Potter doesn't use the "Time may be rewritten" time. If something happens, it happens, there is no stopping it, there is no going back in time to stop it, nothing. Besides, "No magic can revive the dead," were you not paying attention?

they were destroyed

Alright EVERYONE. it's obvious isn't it? Hermione was the best in her year. She wanted to take all the classes so professor mcgonagall, an extremely influential person, got her one. Also, they DID get destroyed and do you really think voldemort would have wanted to break into the ministry only to get a little thing that he'd have to turn for hours to UNDP what he did? no. He would have found it above him. Also, just ask yourself one question. In the space between when voldemort came back and when the time turners were destroyed, everyone thought voldemort was dead. Why would they go back in time to destroy him if he was dead? As for the people who knew he was back, why would they use the time turners? Would you do it? I most certainly would not.

Because all of the time-turners were destroyed in the Department of Mysteries, so Voldemort or anyone else couldn't have used one to go back in time. I'm also pretty sure Hermione got her time-turner confiscated because she used it for something other than school.

First of all how the hell would voldemort get hermione's time tuner? All the other time tuners were destroyed in the Order of the Phoenix when they were running away so that part does not make sense what you said... Harry didn't use the time tuner to kill voldemort because time travelling can be dangerous and there is certain laws... maybe if you read the books you would no some of this!!!

They didn't go back because the series would have been terrible if they had. J.K. Rowling just knows how to write a fantastic story. Duh.

Someone could have gone back in time and killed Voldermort when he was a kid!! Or his mother!!

-It's because in the third book, Harry and Hermione were ALWAYS going to go back in time to save Sirius and Buckbeak because Dumbledore came up with the plan while Sirius and Buckbeak were still alive and Dumbledore probably came up with this plan immediately after learning what happened. -Once someone is dead, you just can't bring them back through any means. -If they used the time turner to stop the ritual, Voldemort would have found another way to come to power because of his horcruxes! -Voldemort would not have been able to get his hands on a time-turner or tell anyone to get one for him, because he was so weak before the ritual and most of his followers were in Azkaban, and you saw how long it took for Voldemort to get in the Department of Ministries. Voldemort wouldn't be able to go back and not curse Harry (which by the way Voldemort never knew about marking Harry his equal so Voldemort didn't even have that advantage) because Harry was ALREADY marked his equal and you just can't go back in time and easily take back part of your soul once you put it in someone or something else.

Why does everyone always reason this with "they were destroyed at the end of book 5". What about book 4? after voldemort was revived? no excuse then. Besides messing with time of course, but 'book 5 they were destroyed' is not an excuse for not using them between book 3 and 5. Stop saying it.

Because they were all destroyed in the department of mysteries. EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM!

If I remember correctly, Hermione hands in her time-turner to Professor Mcgonigal, and she couldn't get a new one past the ending of Order of the Pheonix because they were all destroys when they battled in the Ministry of Magic.

Because you can't change when someone has died. But Sirius Black wasn't dead when Hermione used the time turner to make her and Harry go back in time. It could also be because Hermione did not have the time turner the next year. Does it say that she does have it or doesn't have it at any other point in the series?

The way the timeline works in Hp, in that is fixed, i.e. anything that happens when someone goes back in time, has already happened (thus preventing paradoxes)

You're forgetting that Hermione just wasn't some 'school girl' she was pretty much the best in their year and proved responsible enough to have one. Also, its like she said in PoA - if future Harry ran in on past Harry in Hagrids hut, past Harry could have killed future Harry thinking it was dark magic. Meddling with time is far too risky and it could change the whole future, something could have gone wrong which could have led to Voldemort succeeding in killing Harry and then risen to full power.

ahh don't give me that all time tuners were destroyed crap, if they were so rare and important they wouldn't give it to a school girl so she can take 2 extra classes , and i find it hard to believe that molfoy with all his influence would find it hard to obtain a single time tuner, there must defiantly be some left in some people homes or black goods shops, and in my opinion time travel must never have been used in harry potter, and for those guys who say past cannot be changed time travel just introduces a loop and that loop can be used to change many things in many places in series, like if they didnt go back in time sirus would have died by kiss so they went back and saved him just because we didnt see him die that day dosent mean he would have escaped if they didnt go back to save him, so the whole time travel concept is faulty.

Simply because it is not a series about time travel...

I had the same question but remember that a time turner can only go back a certain amount of hours and if someone sees you the whole future is in jeprody. Plus at the end of the Order of the Pheonix, when they broke into the ministry all the time turners were destroyed.

It could save Lily and she can marry Snape so Severus life won't be such miserable from beginning to the end. *wailing*

its dosnt matter if you go back in time whats done is done, going back wont make a differance, its a closed loop time structure, this actually makes more sense then going back in time and chaging things if it happens in the present then if you go back it will still happen

1. It is not true that they can only go back 24 hours. They can go back years, but the number of times you would need to turn one of the dang things would be very, very numerous. 2. They WERE destroyed during the Ministry Battle in OotP. 3. "Voldemort is many things, but he is not foolish." Are you serious? He is the biggest fool there ever was, making a LIVE SNAKE into a Horcrux, and also choosing to make such glorious objects/items as his Horcruxes. Had he just made Horcruxes out of paperclips and bottlecaps, the dummy might've lived past Harry Potter LOL!

I dont know why not on the fourth (it would have been too much and too soon of the time turner), but at the fifth, the time turners were destroyed when they got into the Department of Mysteries, and apparently they are hard to rebuild, or they did not have time after knowing about Voldemort reappearance.

:O Harry Potter 9 - Death Eaters use a time turner and revive voldemort? I guess JK just realised how stupid this idea was and tried to hide it after HP3.

I haven't read all of the comments here but you're forgetting the main point. You can't meddle with time! If someone died, its their destiny to die, and you mustn't save them. By saving them you could change the future and have a worse outcome. This has always bugged me how people overlooked Hermione saying you can't meddle with time.

Everyone is saying that they were destroyed, which doesn't seem a particularly legitimate answer to me. If the wizarding world can produce these things, and they are so unvaluable they're willing (even grudgingly) to give them to a schoolgirl, they must be able to make more. But I'm not just here to gripe about other answers. If it was a schoolgirl and the Time Turners were capable of dramatically altering the past, all the letters of recommendation in the world couldn't convince them. After all, Tom Riddle had them all fooled, didn't he? And who knows what those things could have meant for the future. Voldemort is many things, but he is not foolish. I think he would have been wise enough to not want to tempt the Fates, because who knew what repercussions his action could have? Perhaps, if Harry's death was not obviously at the hand of Voldemort as a more powerful wizard, people could make it out to be a cowardly thing for Voldemort to do, going back in time to kill him, too afraid to face whatever happened in the future. Maybe he would have been made into a martyr, something to make them fight even harder. And why is everyone forgetting about his mother's protection? Just because his mother isn't here now doesn't mean her protection doesn't still stand. What about in book one, when Voldemort can't even touch Harry? And all the Time Turners are in the custody of the Ministry. I can't particularly see Voldemort, or even when of his followers, waltzing in their there to grab one. How would Lucius Malfoy explain away being caught with an illegal stolen Time Turner in his pocket?

Hermoine gave back her time turner to McGonagall because the work was to much, and all the other ones were destroyed

In the 5th book, it states that all the Time Turner's were destroyed during the Battle at the Ministry, and Rowling also mentions that Time Turners are not used often, and she portrays them to be frowned upon...and not used often AT ALL

but harmione, ron, and harry are on the run from voldemort and trying to kill him. of all the people i think she WOULDNT turn over her time turner to a knowingly corrupted thing like the ministry. also if you cant change something but further it along instead then they couldnt technically save buckbeack or sirius but they did so that makes no sense. the only reason why they coudlnt do it would be because you have to re live the time u went back but even then if u just travel forward you cancel it out and voldemorts dead.

This had me thinking about plot holes in the first place. Are they telling me that Voldemort, splitter of souls, can't handle a little time meddling?

Just before similar questions like from Aaaaa are asked, Hermione says at the end of the third book (p.314): "...That Time-Turner, it was driving me mad. I've handed it in..."

You cannot use it to change the past directly. Going back in time to kill someone would be detrimental to the furture. Hermione going back to take more classes did not effect anyone. Remember in the book when Harry wanted to grab Wormtail and kill him, and Hermione said that he couldn't do that because it would change their whole future.

You can only go back 24 hours

you need to get ministry permission to use thejm and there storm of timeturners was distroyed in book5

This is a quick question, How come Hermione and Harry didn't use the time turner to go back in time to save Cedric and warn Dumbledore that TWT cup is bewitched or tell him that voldy is coming back from the "dead" in the graveyard?

you cant change something, just further it along. in PoA harry sees a Patronus he thinks is his dads but its his. If they hadnt gone back there wouldnt have been a Patronus. Its a closed loop. (sorry if thats confusing)

It's said in the 6th book I think that all the time-turners were destroyed when Harry was in the Department of Mysteries.

The following is written on the time turner: "My use and value unto you are gauged by what you have to do. I mark the hours every one nor have I yet outrun the sun." This suggests that the time turner cannot actually change anything, the user can only do what they have already done.

I think it's mainly because it'd be way too complicated to add that part in. If Harry/Voldie went back in time, they could be seen, do some dastardly deeds, creating a lot of havoc, confusion, etc., and I think the reader might be lost. -Shrugs-

*sorry about my spelling--my keyboard is having problems.

A portkey only works two ways. It takes to you to a predetermined destination and if you grab it again, it will take you back to where you were previously. J.K. Rowling made a mistake in that regard, as explained on Pottermore and the Harry Potter Wikia.

Most likely, the portkey was two ways because Voldemort had it made like that. He planned to kill Harry in the graveyard. Then, he would use pollyjuice potion to look like Harry and use the portkey to get back to the front of the maze and appear to everyone that he, looking like Harry, had won the TWT. As harry, Voldemort would be able to get close to Dumbledore and kill Dumbledore himself, along with many others.

That it brought Harry to the front of the maze does suggest that was supposed to be it's original function but when he was under the effects of veritaserum Crouch/fakeMoody said he "made" the cup into a portkey, not that he altered it... although it doesn't make sense that some sort of other enchantment wasn't on the cup. I guess you could say he made it into a portkey connected to the graveyeard without knowing it had already been a portkey.

I think the portkey was actually 'intercepted.' That ts was originally supposed to take him directly back to Hogwarts, but was altered. They perhaps forced it to go to the graveyard first, but didn't remove the original spell, so when touched the second time, it did it's first intended use.

If they were planning on sending Harry's body back under the illusion of him dying in the tournament, how would he have touched it with his cold, dead hands?

My guess would be that fake moody didn't bother removing the original charm(to transport the winner to the beginning of the maze) and simply slapped a second charm on top, a second 'layer'. He went to the grave yard, using up the top layer of the charm, allowing the original to be 'exposed'. Another possility is that he planned on using the convenient 'hole' in the wards that allowed the cup to be used. (Because their has to be wards, 'else he would have simply made a port key onto the grounds earlier)

Originally the portkey was supposed to take the winner to the front of the maze. So when Crouch made it go to the graveyard it only took a detour.

While yes, this is a plot hole, I always liked to think that somehow the "ghosts" of Harry's parents who came out of Voldemort's wand helped reactivate the portkey.

I'm fairly certain the idea was to resurrect voldemort and then quickly invade hogwards and kill everyone while they were watching and without their wands and such.

They could make portkeys that work just by touching without having to wait. But then if any muggle touches the portkey she or he would be transferred. Also during rescuing harry from No. 4 privet drive they had to use regular portkeys because if they used portkeys that worked by touch they risked the Death Eaters finding The Burrow,

I think it was bewitched to act as a 2 way portkey to send Harry's body back so everybody would think he died in the maze. As to why did the portkey worked by touching, I honestly don't know. but don't forget moody's magical eye.. he could have easily spotted Harry and Cedric by the cup and bewitched it at that time.

Because JK Rowling had a very weird but wonderful ending, and it was very hard to make sure that Harry got back to Hogwarts. Maybe if they killed Harry, Voldemort would get inside Hogwarts via the Portkey? It's not like he wanted to close the death eater's way into Hogwarts!

So that when harry was killed, they could send him back to hogwarts so he does not just disappear. This whole triwizard tournament was important because its a cover up for harry dying. It would be suspicious if harry just disappeared. The tournament meant that if harry died in it, it would not be suspicious because people die in the tournament and no one would question it. Voldemort epididymis not want anyone to know he was alive yet so the tournament allows him to kill harry with it being suspicious. It's actually very smart you just need to think about it it's so obvious

The book isn't specific as to what Voldemort's plan was after he regained his body. The only thing he intended to do after he regained his body was to kill Harry in front of the Death Eaters so they would never doubt who is the better wizard. Remember, Voldemort wanted no one but his death eaters to know that he came back. He probably ordered Crouch Jr. to make it a 2-way portkey so Voldemort could transport Harry's body back to the maze. In that way, the everyone would have assumed Harry died trying to battle an obstacle in the maze. If it was just a one-way portkey, Harry's body would just disappear, probably causing a huge investigation and it might eventually lead to the discovering of the rebirth of Voldemort.

i think the portkeys are a semi-programmable object because of the way they were discarded in GoF after they used the old boot. and the way they were set to go at a specific time is to prevent arrival collisions when a large number of portkeys are used to travel to the same destination from multiple points of departure. As when there is only one being used, it is much more adaptable to "programming" it to act a certain way.

The cup was originally a portkey for the winner to be taken to the front of the maze, to the audience. Becuase they won, so when they touch the cup, the game is over. BUT, crouch made the portkey take a detour - to the graveyard where voldemore was waiting and blah, you know the rest. So once harry was already there, and everything happened, and cedric died, and so when he touched the portkey again - it took him back where it was originally supposed to go - the front of the maze.

Voldemort didn't intend people to know he was back just yet, but he needed harrys blood and wanted harry dead as soon as possible because since he knows the prophecy, he can't wait for harry to grow more in magic, secondly the portkey was intended to bring the winner back to the front hence why nobody was surprised on how suddenly they got there, so it was made to take them to the graveyard and when harry dies it would make it look like he died by accident while touching the cup, anyways this is just my theory ;P

In addition to what the others said, what about the potion itself? It may have taken that long to prepare it? Its known that some potions have to stew for at least a month, and you would think it would need quite some time for one as powerful as this. Also Voldemort didn't want to bring attention to himself immediately.

There is no comment in any of the other books that portkeys don't do 'return journeys'. For all we know, all portkey's act like this, and take you back to your original location once 're-touched'. And Moody didn't just send him off to Voldemort at the beginning of the book, because he had to stay at Hogwarts for the year (presumably do abit of spying on Dumbledore, and Voldemort doesn't return until the night of the third task, what would be the point of Moody sending Harry, before he was actually back?

because it was meant to take the winner to the entrance of the maze to be praised, a new spell was put on it to take the winner (harry) to the graveyard. but what i don't understand is why Cedric didn't get teleported to the entrance when he poked and kicked at it when they got to the graveyard>

Here is my thought: The cup could've been portkey before Crouch put another portkey thing on it. Perhaps Crouch's portkey wore off after being used once. Then the Orginal portkey started to work yet again. The original portkey couldve taken the person back to be declared the winner?

I think Crouch Jr. could only work one part of the already designed portkey- that was to take anyone who touches it to the Graveyard. What happened afterwards was what the original portkey was designed for-ie., taking the first person to touch it back to the grounds to declare the winner!

If they used a touch activated portkey to get to quidditch thing, then either everyone would have to grab it at the same time, or only one person at a time could use it. Touch activated portkeys are designed for one person

crouch jr. was intending for the plan not to fail and after voldemort was revived with harry's death they would then insta-port to hogwarts and kill everyone. that would have been game over had the events transpired as such.

It worked two ways because It had two portkey spells cast on it.. 1. the original TWT key to send them back the the entrance. 2. the key that 'Moody' aka crouch casts on it which I imagine became the primary key as it's been place over the original so when that key was used it got removed making the TWT key become the primary key again as it wasn't activated.

The original function of the Triwizard cup is to transport the winner to the front of the maze in this particular Tournament. I'm sure that it's main function couldn't be completely over ridden. Or maybe the portkey was allowed to return them back to the front of the maze because say Voldemort did killed Harry in the Graveyard, I think the first place he would go to flaunt would be to Hogwarts. He would want to show Dumbledore that he had done what he planned to do when Harry was a baby. So the portkey had a detour added and there you go.

explanation below only would make sence if it didnt have one flaw as well.. then how is it placed there, if no one can touch it without it transporting htem, the firs tperson to touch it, how do they put it on a table.. ect. bull its a plothole >>>>>>>. This is just my speculation: The Triwizard Cup was always meant to be a Portkey that transported the winner to the front of the maze. Maybe Moody was unable to remove this spell when he added a detour location to the Portkey and/or the spell for the return trip was convenient because it allowed Voldemort to make it seem that Harry died in the maze, perhaps in a deadly duel for the Cup. As for why not a timed Portkey: different spells for different uses. For the World Cup timed is better as it allows a large group to grab on to it before the spell activates and helps on the organisation front at the campsite. For the Cup, having it activate the moment it is touched for the first time helps to clearly mark out the winner

For the most part, portkeys and other magical transportation devices are closely watched and regulated by the Ministry of Magic. It's a very complex spell that not all witches and wizards can do.

well sence u cannot apperate diretly into Hogwarts and the vanishing closet didnt work at the time, the portkey was the only way voldemort and his followers would have easily been able to gain control over Hogwarts once harry had died, that being the plan, and it took him back to the frount of the maze so Voldemort and them didnt have to worry about finding there way out of the maze and through the challanges that lay inside the maze. Because, if u rember, the plan was not for harry to make it out of there alive.

in DH they used a timed portkey incase someone did die on the way. if the portkey went off for whoever touched it first, and someone died on the trip, there could have been a random portkey laying around for a death eater to touch and appear at the burrow without any trouble.

Also, in GoF, after the death eater attack, the MoM would be hard-pressed to organize thousands of portkeyes in a few hours, so they might have used old ones that brought the ticket holders there to take them back

This is just my speculation: The Triwizard Cup was always meant to be a Portkey that transported the winner to the front of the maze. Maybe Moody was unable to remove this spell when he added a detour location to the Portkey and/or the spell for the return trip was convenient because it allowed Voldemort to make it seem that Harry died in the maze, perhaps in a deadly duel for the Cup. As for why not a timed Portkey: different spells for different uses. For the World Cup timed is better as it allows a large group to grab on to it before the spell activates and helps on the organisation front at the campsite. For the Cup, having it activate the moment it is touched for the first time helps to clearly mark out the winner.

Voldemort thought he would definitely be able to kill Harry! He always thought he was the strongest person, and definitely stronger than a 14 year old

My theory on this is that Voldemort was intending to kill Harry right then and there. He didn't expect the twin core effect to occur and cause the disaster it did. I imagine that he wished to kill Harry there, then use the port key with the Death Eaters, and make his grand return in front of the majority of the wizard world there. Since his one true danger would be dead, and all 7 pieces of his soul intact (7 to his knowledge) and kept safe in the horcruxs, he would have nothing to fear, and since most of the wizards in Harry Potter kind of lose their balls at the very mention of his name, he would have no opposition and be able to take his throne. Seriously dude, do you have to have EVERYTHING explained to you? Use creative thinking when you read. Most of these "plot holes" on this list are ridiculously off, and I assume that most of them were written by people who either only saw the movies, or read the books very badly.

When Voldemort and Harry’s wands connected, shadows of Voldemort’s last victims came out. They all obviously knew what was going on and Harry’s parents were the ones who told him to go back to the cup. Right when they said that, the cup lit up again. It is assumed that they, somehow, turned the cup into a reverse portkey.

to the second comment, they didn't use "touch portkey" at the beginning of DH, probably because the two people would have to touch it exactly at the same time, plus having "timed" portkeys meant they knew if something had gone wrong and who was missing or hurt.

They didn't want to use timed portkeys because there would be a bigger chance of the death eaters being able to access them and take them to Order headquarters.

If you used touch portkeys too often, that could be really dangerous. A muggle could be walking around, step on some litter, and be flung into the Quidditch World Cup. I'm seeing some problems with that.

I don't know about why the Order didn't use this method, but Crouch Jr. made it work two ways in order to send Harry's body back. It would look as though Harry died in an accident along with Cedric.

they should make voice activated ones. like, "i am remus lupin and i am going to the burrow with george weasley!"

^yeah in GoF they used "timed" portkeys, but why did they used "timed" portkeys in the beginning of DH? Some of the groups missed their portkey, which was a huge inconvenience. Why couldn't they use "touch" portkeys then?

Not sure about the first question, but for the second, the portkeys would go at a specific time so that the right people catch the portkey. What if a muggle had touched the key first and ended up in the middle of the quidditch world cup?

I don't think Dumbledore would have wanted to make it impossible in case he wanted to get it out. Remember, it wasn't decided that it would be destroyed until after the climax of the book. Before this, Flamel and his wife would still have depended on it, or it would have been destroyed when it became apparent that someone was after it. I don't think the plan was to keep it there indefinitely, just until the threat had passed. And Dumbledore would have no reason to expect that Voldemort would be able to actually get the stone (his intention was exactly why he couldn't obtain it), so there was no necessity for the obstacles to be impossible to overcome. Having said that, without the pretense Voldemort would have suspected something. Being able to easily overcome the obstacles would have made him think Dumbledore an old fool, which would work more in Dumbledore's favour than if Voldemort was suspicious.

To the people asking why Voldemort didn't use the stone in the first place, remember the book said he didn't want to have to relay on anything, he only wanted the stone so he could create a new body for himself.

Why not hide it with flamel and make dumbledore Secret Keeper?

Obviously they wanted the stone accessible...otherwise all of the keys wouldn't have fit the door, the chess match would have been impossible to win, and all of the potions would have been poison.

The stonedoesn't make you imortal, it just alowsyou to livepast normal age. Even if Voldemort was 300 years old he would not be invulnerable to the Avada Kedavra spell. Hence the Horcruxes.

Well, they were the Golden trio...

To the person below me Dumbledore explained the Voldemort question. Tom was very vain and independent and didn't want to rely on another for immortality and would only use the PS to restore his body before relying on his Horcruxies again.

what i don't understand about the PS is that the stone had been around for centuries, given that Nicholas was 665 years old i mean why didn't voldemort try to get that thing in the first place when he was in power instead of doing the horcruxes?? if he wanted to be immortal the stone would suffice too, wouldn't it?

I don't understand how a) Prof Quirrel managed to complete the game of chess on his own whilst it took a convenient 3 people when H&H&R had to play b) did the game just reset itself? c) When harry gets the key he flies the broomstick through the door followed by many keys, did the same not occur for quirrel?

The traps weren't expected to stop a determined thief but to delay him long enough to be caught. Devil's Snare would kill if not stopped (see OoP) and deaths on school grounds are scandalous (even in Hogwarts) so it would have to have been checked regularly or alarmed in someway to avoid the staff finding a corpse in the morning when they went into feed Fluffy. Also, Devil's Snare was not recognised by fully trained medical staff in a secure ward so maybe the only reason that the first years were taught was to help Harry just like Hagrid giving Harry a musical instrument and Dumbledore returning the clock and telling him how the mirror worked.

I think the point was their innocence made it possible.

They didn't particularly have anyone in mind who was going to steal the stone. Also, one of their best defenses was that most people didn't know the stone was at Hogwarts or even existed and the other was Dumbledor's idea, not to mention most people didn't know how to defeat Fluffy. Also, some of the obstacles had already been taken out (the troll) and it would have to be someone who really wanted to use the stone who could be bothered with all those tasks meaning the last one would stomp them.

Yeah, a huge plot hole. No doubt. JKR had not planned ahead of the first book all that much, its understandable.

I am sure someone had heard of Fidelus beforehand!!

How about this: Why didn't they just PROTECT the stone? Why didn't they just lock the door and hide the key in Dumbledore's pocket or whatever. Isn't it a bit silly to let the key fly around there?

because its a childrens book and in order to relate to the readers it has to be a kid who saves the day.

Kind of a valid point,however,think:Voldemort was not alive in PS. He was just using Quirrell's body as a host:as a house,not possessing it. Also,at least three or two of the tests were actually really smart,like the chess game and the logic puzzle,along with the spell placed on the rock. Most wizards would not be able to get past the logic puzzle,as stated by Hermione,since most of them do not care about logic,and Voldemort wanted to use the rock,meaning that'd make it incredibly hard for him,by himself or through asking Quirrell to get it for him,to acquire the stone. That'd squarely block most people that'd,in theory,attempt to steal the stone.

well a lot of people panic in situations like being strangled to death by a living plant, and it was something small they spent maybe a day on in class, tell me do u rember eveythin u ever learned from your kindergarden or 1st grade year? and theonly managedd the potions because of Hermione, who is, well, proabiliy close to a prodagee and rembers every little thing, its also muggle knowledge, most wizards dont fous on that stuff, do u honestly expect Voldemort to have taken muggle studies? the chess game most people especailly Voldemort would not have given there own life, or risk it anyway, to win a game, and dumbledores test above all the rest, only the person who wanted to find it but not use it could find the stone, obviously Voldemort wanted to use the stone

The whole ending of PS does not make sense. Yes, Dumbledore may have wanted Harry to get through or something, but this is actually dumb. Without Harry getting through, Voldemort would not have had a chance in hell to get the stone, as he would not have got it out of the mirror! Why doesn't anybody point this out to Harry, at least? Besides, it's hard to see who would have gotten the stone out of the mirror, other than Harry in this specific situation. Nicolas Flamel couldn't have, as he would have wanted to use it. For anybody else, it would probably not have been their actual deepest desire to just take a look at the stone, but NOT use it. Okay, maybe Dumbledore left a possibility for himself to get the stone out of the mirror, but even if that is so, Harry did a pretty dumb thing.

If you all actually read the first book, you would understand that DUMBLEDORE WANTED HARRY TO GET THROUGH TO SEE IF HE WAS TOUGH ENOUGH!!!

More importantly, how did Harry get through Snape's potion test? Shouldn't the only available potion for foreward motion already have been used by Quirrell/Voldemort? After all, the key in the first room was already damaged and didn't magically repair itself, and it's rediculous to think Snape left two of the same potion.

Reread the books. Dumbledore set up those traps knowing all along Harry was going to go after it. He even said later on that he was remarkably foolish and selfish for testing Harry like that.

They had a lot of help. First off, Hagrid accidentally told them how to get by Fluffy. The Devil’s snare was a little easy, the troll was already dead, the key was already bent out of shape with a broken wing so that tipped Harry off, and Ron was super good at chess whereas, most people aren’t. Plus, he had to sacrifice himself to win. One person couldn’t have gotten through those things. It took teamwork. I’ll admit that the potions and the snare were both easy but Dumbledore knew that the Mirror of Erised would hold anyone who was evil back so basically, the other barriers were just small precautions. Also, the teachers weren’t going down there to get Flamel elixir. He had stocked up. That would just be stupid.

One thing people never realize - THE STONE WASN'T MEANT TO BE COMPLETELY INACCESSIBLE! They needed to access it regularly to get the elixir for Nicolas Flamel and his wife! So, obviously they had to have obstacles that were possible to get around. The fact that the obstacles they chose were ones that catered to the strength of the Trio was complete luck. As anyone who reads the books knows, Harry has extreme luck. He has really bad luck which gets him into near-impossible situations, but he has really good luck that gets him out.

I think Voldemort would have had a harder time reaching the stone as a human if he didn't have Quirrel--because Quirrel already knew what all of the traps were, making it easy to get around them. Voldemort by himself would have had no trouble at all getting to the Mirror of Erised, because he was in Spirt Form at the time & needed the Stone to get his body back. Yet neither Quirrel nor Voldemort could get the Stone from the Mirror because they had their own selfish desires in mind for it. Harry, Hermione, and Ron had each other. They all had certain skills that allowed them to get past each challenge because they knew their strengths. One student, first year or older, would not have been able to reach the Stone by themselves because they would not be very likely to possess such a wide range of skills. So it took three unprepared, but quite intelligent, minds to pass all of the teachers' defenses.

what i don't get is why make it possible for someone to get through the defences? surely the point is to stop anyone getting through. why not make the chess men or birds attack, or make all the bottles poison, therefore making it sure that no one could reach the stone?

Also, in PS only 4 or 5 teachers knew about and were trying to protect the stone. In DH, the whole staff and many aurors and students were trying to keep voldy out. Not a good comparison.

the traps where a delay system, designed to get people stuck down there for a while (and the potion trap would have because Dumbledore says a lot of wizards lack basic logic skills) there was no way for someone who seeked the stone and wanted to use it to be able to get it.

Personally I've always looked at the "obstacle course" at the end of PS as just that. It's a little too tailor made to each of their strengths to really be anything else.

I'm pretty sure Voldemort got through all of the obstacles without any trouble, his only trouble was the mirror. Remember, Voldemort left just enough potion for Harry to come to him. He wanted to meet Harry.

I agree that they had a significant advantage, already being at Hogwarts. Also, they had information and skills that, combined, were unique. They knew how to calm down Fluffy, which I doubt many others would have been able to worm out of Hagrid. It was fairly unusual for someone to have Hermione-esque memory and know how to deal with the plant. The logic Harry used to find the key, and his skill in catching it, weren't dime-a-dozen either. Basically, the levelheadedness with which they faced the tasks is not something they would expect to be found in who they thought would want the stone, maybe a power-hungry megalomaniac or someone foolish enough to desire immortality.

getting through the maze was only luck that each obstacle required a talent that one of the three had, but the last test was the one ment to stop anyone from getting it other than someone who did not want it (harry)

they weren't there to keep Voldy out they were there to keep anyone out. the perpatrater(?) not only would have to get into hogwarts but by the teachers. then the person would have to get by the obsticles. the likelihood that they could do that alone is slim. the trio were able to get through bec they were already in hogwarts and the teachers wouldn't hurt them. all that was left was the obsticles and they succeeded because there were three minds working together. they knew about the music, ron for the chess, hormine for the devil's snare and potions, and harry for the flying key and the heart of gold to want the stone but not use it. the ogre was taken care of by professor quarrel. i think there may have been more. anyway the prof had the same advantage (voldy was intellegent enough to help the professor along if needed) except the heart of gold for the stone.

Getting through the obstacles was all just luck and magic for the trio. The reason that Harry was able to get the stone and not Voldy was because of Dumbledore's enchantment on the mirror of Erised. He charmed it that you could only get the stone if you didn't intend to use it. Also, I'm sure that the staff all knew that if Voldemort was to enter Hogwarts, he would not have a full body or at least one all to himself. A piece of a soul feeding off the back of a young professor's head is not the same as the most powerful dark wizard of all time.

the ministry was probably empty because the death eaters probably stupefied or did something to them

Two birds with one stone, I guess.

Definite plothole. If there was no night duty because as everyone says they went home than voldemort could have taken the prophecy himself as the prophecy is about him AND harry. it says it in the chapter when they read what on the prophecy. Harry asks why voldemort didn't come and take it and death eater laughs and says something like "The dark Lord reveal himself to the ministry?" can't remember the exact quote but there definitely should have been someone at the ministry. why would they have a place called the department of mysteries if anyone can walk in and have a look around? Arthur weasley said once he had no idea what they get up to in there.

ading to the one below... plus the fact that only Harry and Voldemort can touch the prophecy on the shelf hinders them. If Harry is at Hogwarts, the Ministry and everyone else would know that Voldemort is back

You cannot pick up a prophecy off the shelf unless it has your name on it. Voldemort had to trick Harry because Harry was the only one able to pick the prophecy off the shelf. Lucius asks for the prophecy after Harry takes it off the shelf in the movie. He does this because he cant pick it up off the shelf, but once Harry has picked it up off the shelf any one can touch it.

"It was night" is not an excuse. Mr Weasley was attacked in the middle of the night and the portrait Everard rather easily got the attention in the ministry of someone to find him. Consider that this is not just a bureaucratic building, all sorts of magical enforcement departments are headquartered there to take care of problems that happen at any time of the day or night. Whether its to detect Harry's apparent underage magic in the late evening or to respond immediately or to respond to disturbances at Moody's In the early morning, there's always supposed to be someone there. At the very least there would be security. It could be said that there would at least be less people there and easier to figure out a way to keep the people that would normally be there out of the way. Mass confundus charms to make people think it was their night off... wards to block people from apparating in or getting there by Floo powder... something. I mean, too me the sudden appearance of ministry people at the end seems to suggest to me that they WERE trying to get in but were being blocked by Voldemort somehow and it was only when he was weakened and sent reeling by Harry's feeling for Sirius that they were ABLE to get in. BUT it is seriously negligent that this is never explained in the book and odd that JK has never (to my knowledge) come up with an explanation since.

okay, why didn't voldemort, who is clearly able to remove the prophecy, just get into the ministry (no one is there, his death eaters got in undetected), take the prophecy, hear it out, then lure Harry there by showing him the vision of Sirius and finish him off? the members of the Order and the ministry employees arrived much later, I don't think Harry and the others would have stood much chance against voldemort and all those death eaters...they could have said it was the escaped prisoner's work and Fudge, oblivious as he is to Voldemort's return might have very well believed that story

Maybe voldemort wanted to get the prophecy and try to kill harry after he got the prophecy from lucius if he did. And if lucius fails which ye did, voldy would have gone to the ministry of magic like he did.

He needed harry because the prophecy can only be seen when the person to whom it belongs touches it. thats why when lucius malfoy grabs it, it turns dark

in response to the comment about prophecies only being taken by their subjects. Voldermort is a subject of the phrophecy, probably more so than Harry as there is no doubt who the darklord is but the child could have been Nevile or Harry when the prophecy was put on the shelf.

Simple. The reason that the Ministry of Magic was empty is because it was not empty. Remember, most of the death eaters worked for the ministry. Therefore it is quite possible that the death eaters who broke in WERE the night shift employees.

Simply saying "It was night." is not a valid response. Government services don't shut down just because the sun goes down, there would have been a night shift! What the poster is forgetting though is that there were around a dozen Death Eaters who went in first who could have easily Imperiused everyone into neglecting their duties.

A chance at killing Harry maybe

1: Voldemort didn’t want to get caught. But, he did, which shows that he was right in thinking that he shouldn’t have went to ministry. Also, he wanted Harry in his grasp. Also, he did not want to run into Dumbledore because he was still afraid of him. ALSO, for those of you who are saying the whole point was just to hear the prophecy so Lucius could have listened to it and then broke it. NO. Lucius couldn’t have even taken the prophecy off the shelf. He never had possession of the prophecy. And do you really think Voldemort would want Lucius or anyone else to hear the prophecy? The prophecy explained vaguely exactly how Voldemort would meet his death. That is EXTREMELY valuable information. He would definitely not want anyone to know that. He didn’t trust anyone ever.

it was night time

the whole point of getting the prophecy is to hear what it says. why don't lucius malfoy just break the prophecy without touching it, hear what it says, and report back to voldemort.

I agree with the comment above - Lucius is highly commended in the ministry and is allowed pretty much anywhere. At night there would be less people working there, therefore it would be easy for Voldemorts top death eaters to use the imperius curse on them all.

I think Voldemort didn't want to take the risk of being caught, even if there would be a single person in the ministry, all of the wizarding world would know about his return! I think he asked Lucius to head the attack because Lucius through his connections would have easy access to the Department of Mysteries! If you remember when Nagini went in pursuit of the Prophesy she was met by Arthur Weasley, I think Voldemort didn't want to take that risk!

Voldy could have easily taken it himself. Polyjuice potion, anyone?

It's right, the Prohpecy is only about Harry (the one who has chance to defeat the Dark Lord). Voldemort is only mentioned (as target), but hasn't the ability of getting without being "punished" (as every others except Harry)

If Voldemort had taken it, and it could be demonstrated that there was no way for Harry to have done so at the time, then it would be conclusive proof that Voldemort had returned. After all, they were the only two people who could take it, and if Harry didn't do it, then there would be only one other explanation. And they seemed to arrive when there was a big meeting or something because they all came out during the fighting like they were all together some place.

they had a fire drill so everyone was outside for a while, it was just a massive coincidence that Harry and the rest arrived at that time

the departement of misterys was pertected by the order, and with tring to remain a secret voldermort going to the ministry would be dangerous, also, it was night so that section was empty, at that time dut voldemort wasn't likely to be sure he could get away with coming in

^^ I find it rather difficult to believe that the headquarters for the seat of magical government in Britain would empty out completely just because it's nighttime. If nothing else, there's the practical matter of communicating with other wizarding governments around the world; where it might be 3:00 PM while it's midnight in England. Furthermore, one would expect that the Auror's office would be staffed 24/7; evil wizards don't stop committing crimes just because it's dark outside.

I thought it happened late at night, after the ministry had closed. Isn't Fudge in his pajamas when he shows up at the end?

If Voldemort had taken it, and it could be demonstrated that there was no way for Harry to have done so at the time, then it would be conclusive proof that Voldemort had returned. After all, they were the only two people who could take it, and if Harry didn't do it, then there would be only one other explanation.

Voldemort didnt go in and take it because he didnt want to show everyone that hes back.

The point of this comment isn't that Voldemort could have taken it; it's that the ministry was EMPTY. Surely there's a nighttime staff of some sort in the main governing center for Britain's wizarding community! The logical explanation for what happened to everyone is that the Death Eaters went around and Imperiused the entire night shift into leaving, or hiding under their desks, or some such thing. I think Voldemort didn't take the prophecy himself because he'd seen one person driven insane by trying, and he ASSUMED that it could be taken safely by Harry or himself, but he wasn't about to risk his own life just in case he was wrong; it would be reasonable to think that there might be extra protections set up around it.

I think that he could very easily have put a disillusionment charm on himself, or disguised himself, and any stragglers in the empty ministry wouldn't have lasted long enough to tell anyone. What's more important is that if Harry didn't take it, then the only other person who could have taken it was Voldemort. As soon as someone realised it was missing it would be easy to establish that Harry was elsewhere at the time and it could only have been Voldemort who had taken it.

It is stated in the book that Voldemort could remove the prophecy. Voldemort probably could have walked in, but what if someone happened to be in the wrong place? Why take the risk?

The books says that prophecies can only be taken by the person it IS about. And the prophecy is all about Harry, it says a boy born at the end of July will be the only one to kill Voldy (yeah, something like that)

it Is about harry and voldemort. the book says both of them can take it and voldemort didn't want to risk being seen. make sure you really know the stuff before making corny explanations!

Prophecies can only be taken by the person it Is about.

Only the heir of Slytherin could get into the chamber, and none of the ghosts are heirs. Also, what secret places are there in book 1? Just the place where the stone is hidden. And the ghosts are loyal to Dumbledore. They wouldn't have mentioned that and I'm sure he asked them not to. Either that, or since he's Dumbledore, he put a ghost repelling thingamajig on the trapdoor.

The easy, though perhaps lazy answer, is that certain locations are warded from ghosts or simply weren't "secret" enough for them to be bothered mentioning. First year the third floor corridor is hardly a secret, and the ghosts would likely have been forbidden by the headmaster to mention any specifics about. The chamber of secrets on the other hand likely has some sort of warding against spirits, or is simply so far below the school that no ghost would have ever floated through a sufficient amount of solid material to find it. It not much more likely they would have floated down a very long pipe to get there either, so ultimately the chamber never got found.

"what are you going to do with giant basilisk skeleton?" - The same you do with a giant dead accromantula- extrude it's extremely powerful venom. Even apart from that, the academic purposes of studying such a powerful and rare magical creature would seem numerous. Really, once they knew where the opening was, it does seem like they should be able to figure out a way to enter it without using parseltongue. ---This is just after the fact though. As has been said many times before- Dumbledore, nor anyone else had any idea the beast was a basilisk and even though they had searched for the entrance, could find no trace of it.

No one speaks Parseltongue other than Harry and Voldemort. They had no way of opening the Chamber, or knowing where the Chamber is. As for leaving the skeleton, what are you going to do with giant basilisk skeleton?

I think it's funny that they just leave its skeleton in the Chamber after the CoS. Do they even explore the Chamber after its existence is confirmed?

It's never said the Dumbles knew that the snake existed...

Dumbledore is NOT a Parseltongue..

Actually this one needs a good answer. With his EXTRAORDINARY powers (both magical and mental) Dumbledore could have found the entrance to the Chamber. He is just to clear the path a little, a Parseltongue (and can speak Mermish and Gobbledygook, etc from Rowling), can reveal the entrance by detecting magic (which even in a place full of magic is possible, like the horocrux pool where Voldemort specifically tries to hide his tracks), for what good it does Myrtle is there. And the fangs would still be there if the basilisk died. If Hermionie figured it out Albus definitely could. Even if he didn't know what the monster was if staying consistent with his power levels he should have been able to find the entrance. At the very least he could have heard the basilisk as Harry did when it roamed the school. To a wizard like Albus a very defining attribute of KILLING EYES would be a definite pointer in the right direction. AND even if he wasn't the Heir of Slytherin he could have still entered because he knew Parseltonuge or kept the snake from exiting or killed the snake without he himself entering the Chamber.

Well dumbledore knew about the horcruxes by then(through the diary) and he probably wanted to keep the fangs safe for later use to destroy the horcruxes if by chance he couldn't attain other means to destroy it - just a thought

Dumbledore did not know that there was a Basilsk in the sewers. He knew that the chamber had been opened and that it contained a monster that could kill students. He didn't know what the monster was.

Even if Dumbledore had talked to Myrtle, all she'd be able to share is "Two big yellow eyes" which isn't exactly illuminating. And Dumbledore no Parseltongue, how he get in? How would he find the entrance? Re: Harry getting rooster: Yes. Why don't I just take this rooster that just happens to be sitting here conveniently?

why didn't dumbledore just ask murtle about her death. It wouldn't be hard to figure out the where the was entrance or the creature. Also the fact that hagrid was accused of being the heir of sylerthin is ridiculous. When harry goes to fight the snake, why doesn't he get himself a roster, it would have made it alot easier

I'm sure there was some part of Dumbledore that knew about it, but how could he have gotten rid of the dang thing? He didn't know where the Chamber was and even if he did, he'd need to be an Heir of Slytherin to open it! Plus, he never knew exactly what the creature was, no one did.

there must have been water pouring out of the sink while the chamber was opened.

They are wizards!!!! Obviously they are ahead of the times. Duh.

Good point. However, it's possible that the Chamber of Secrets may have magicked itself a pipeline to the girls' bathroom once the bathroom was made. (Which begs the question: where was the entrance to the Chamber of Secrets before then? Was it in the same spot as that girls' bathroom would eventually be?) Remember that Hogwarts has powers of its own, as evidenced by the Room of Requirement.

If the Chamber was anything like the Room of Requirements it would solve that problem all by itself. We are dealing with magic, after all, so this is not necessarily a problem.

When Salazar Slytherin died, he passed on his secrets to his son, including the location of the snake, who then passed on the info to HIS heir, and so on and so forth. Is it really so unbelievable to think that an heir was around at the time that the castle was being modified, and maybe said "hey, I'll help you add plumbing!!!", and rerouted the entrance to the tunnel? Maybe the heir was a female, explaining why the entrance was in the girl's bathroom. Maybe there's even an entrance in the boy's bathroom as well, but the trio followed the clues to the girl's.

OK, Slytherin built the chamber under the school to house the monster. The next up to speak Parseltongue was Tom Riddle. Isn't it possible that Tom Riddle scratched the serpent into the side of the tap during HIS time at Hogwarts, after discovering that the tunnel/pit/opening to the Chamber of Secrets was in "Moaning Myrtle's" bathroom? Prior to MM being all basilisked to death, the bathroom was in use regularly. Maybe Tom Riddle marked it to assure discovery by HIS heir. "Son of Voldemort".

It says in Potter-more I believe, that Hogwarts modernizes itself through the years, so possibly the entrance was a different type of faucet, and when those bathrooms were added, the entrance just adapted. Its magical after all.

Plumbing has been around for thousands of years. Way before Salazar was even born. Maybe not as efficent as today, but they were still usuable. I

Im pretty sure that in the chamber of secrets there was no poo pee or water. The chambers were NOT the plumbing!! The sinks and toilets had their own plumbing skinny small and separate. The tunnels below the sinks were obviously created by Salazar Slytherin himself. He wanted a place to eventually keep a monster to rid the school of all non purebloods. This is where Tom Riddle got his ideas, from Slytherin's ideas! SO Salazar Slytherin made them, on purpose, for his own diabolical means. THAT is why only parselmouths can enter!

The only way that the chamber of secrets could be accessed through a bathroom is if the bathroom and all of its plumbing fixtures were built at the same time as the chamber. The idea that modern plumbing which was added later and was then incidentally used to access the chamber is faulty. In order to access the chamber, Harry had to say a magical phrase. That means that the object he was talking to (I.e. the sink) had to have been installed at the same time as the chamber, or that someone modified it to be an entrance when the modern plumbing was installed (impossible, because if that were true, the chamber would not have been lost). Because of this, there are only three solutions to this issue: 1) the plumbing in the bathroom is ancient, not modern (unlikely); 2) modern wizard plumbers know exactly where the chamber is, since they would have had to program the password (meaning the chamber was not as lost as the book leads us to believe; or 3) there is a very, very big plot hole in this book.

To the people who are saying why it's in a girls bathroom, IT;S BEEN 900 YEARS!!!, it could've been a boys or staff's bathroom back then.

Not relevant to the plot hole, but the comments got me thinking: maybe Salazar had the Chamber in the girl's bathroom because he was really transgender?! Just a thought :)

"Tom Riddle used Ginny to petrify all those people. That's shes powerful. Got exposed to dark magic early." Is it just me, or does anyone else 1) Have any idea what this person was trying to say, and 2) Know how it's relevant to the plot hole?

The problem is the snake carved on the fixtures. It is utterly unbelievable that the castle has had those fixtures for 900 years. This is the first true plot hole in the list, imo.

I Think a more important question here is Salazar Slytherin a GUY. So why would his oh so special monster of a snake have a chamber entrance in the GIRLS bathroom???

The plumbing NEVER WORKED because the plumbing was actually huge TUNNELS, which are more primitive than a wheel.....

The basilisk was not originally intended to travel through the pipes, just to be "released from the chamber" The travel through the pipes only dates back 50 yrs to the fist round of deaths when voldemort/ tom riddle released the snake (and could have devised the pipes travel then! I think the REAL plothole here is how did the basilisk easy get in and out of these pipes at the locations of the murders without being caught. The thing was huge. Even if it moved quickly...no one ever spotted a tail or a huge pipe opening "uncorked" so to speak. I mean the pipes in my house only open up in my bathroom and sinks. How did it get into that open hallway where mrs. norris was found or the library where hermione was? Still I'm not that worried about it, I feel as though Magic could easily explain this problem away. It hasn't technically broken a plot rule yet, just raised some questions.

The Greeks had indoor plumbing. It was primative, but they had it. Your argument is invalid.

Maybe Salazar put the pipes there so the snake could move around, and had no idea it would end up as indoor plumbing. then the school just modified itself so it was used as indoor plumbing

the earliest known "city" with plumbing is an ancient Indian city: Catal Huyuk, founded about 7000 bce, which far out dates the founding of Hogwarts

Of course Mr. Weasley didn't know what a plumber was! Why would wizards need to hire a plumber?

You do realise the the Basilisk is probably A LOT larger than regular pipes nowadays, right? This implies that the plumbing is magical. The pipes could also have been added at a later date, it wouldn't be to hard CONSIDERING IT'S A SCHOOL DEDICATED TO MAGIC.

Plumbing is not necessarily mechanical could have been magical. Also note the ancient romans had baths with hot running water and flush toilets, the Minoans had some early plumbing as did the Chinese..

Its magic! They can do what ever they want!

It's not exactly very advanced plumbing. There's a chance that the drains and pipes existed before hand in a MAGIC CASTLE, but the plumbing closer to the surface was added later on.

Are we really going to pretend that indoor plumbing, whether it hadn't existed in the time frame or not, is unrealistic when we are talking about books that have wizards who cast spells and can transport themselves to a location of their choosing with a mere thought?

A wizard did it

The Chamber of Secrets was build under the school. It's quite possible that as the school modified and pipes added, the chamber connected itself to the pipes. Much like The Labyrinth in the Greek Mythology, it could have grown on its own accord to fit the growing size of the Basilisk as well as any changes in the castle! Salazar Slytherin was a powerful wizard, he could have bewitched the chamber as such!

No its not!

This confuses me too. Chamber of Secrets *clearly* shows that wizards use muggle-like plumbing systems. However at the beginning of OotP, Mr. Weasley doesn't know what a plumber is. Personally I assumed sinks and showers would simply create water, like the aguamenti spell, without the use of pipes, and a toliet would be like a vanishing bowl, where the contents would just disappear. However, then the wizards wouldn't use pipes, which would have created a major pothole in CoS

magical world is behind and ahead of muggles in different ways salizare slytherine planned this chamber

The Minoans and romans had indoor plumbing even 1700 years ago. It wouldn't be the same as modern plumbing, but I'm sure wizards wouldn't have forgotten it like muggles did.

The Chamber of Secrets was built under the school, not in it. It was probably concealed by magic and they did not come across it when bathrooms were later added to the castle. It was probably just the way things ended up working out that the basilisk could get around through the plumbing.

None of this is directly supported by the books, but it is plausible: In lieu of a modern bathroom, suppose that Slytherin had constructed his chamber entrance in a "garderobe" which was essentially the restroom in ancient castles, basically a bench with a hold that led into a cesspit. It's not unreasonable to think that there may have been some kind of well in the room where one could draw up water with which to wash, and that's where he put the actual entrance, carving a snake into the bucket to mark its spot. Over time, the garderobe was remodeled several times to bring it up-to-date (preserving historical architecture is fine and good, but people like modern bathroom facilities!). Remember that this isn't just some door that one could smash through; it's a magically concealed entrance. Tearing up the floors wouldn't reveal the Chamber of Secrets. But each time the room was remodeled, the entrance would re-establish itself in context. Sometime in the late 17th century, perhaps they replaced the well with a fountain, and the snake appeared on one of the fountainheads (which never worked). Then, they replaced the fountain with modern sinks, and the snake appeared on a faucet. The entrance, and the snake that marks it, remains no matter how they remodel the room. Like I said, unsupported by the books, but it sounds like the sort of thing that would happen in Harry Potter's world.

I remember reading that indoor plumbing existed more than a thousand years ago.

This creates all sorts of possibilities. Could Salazar Slytherin have been the first person to develop indoor plumbing?!

the idea of having actual plumbing running through the walls of a thousand year old magical castle is laughable anyway on multiple levels. If you could do magic, would you train as a plumber?

True, but is seems logical they installed that later. I mean, they couldn't really let these children go outside in a hole or something. And they have magic, so it should be possible...

Not in a magic castle its not!

Yes, but a castle is also way too early

Fair enough

A cool theory is that in the movies the reason draco ripped a page from a book in the bookshop was for them. Draco didn't call just anyone mudblood, he only ever called hermione it and it only started in her second year even though he was likely already aware of the slur in the first year. as if warning her.

And why would Hermione rip out a page of such a valuable book? Seems untypical of her

Hermiobe had her fist clenched around the piece of paper. No one would have seen it unless they looked very closely. Certainly, Madam Pomfrey would not have fussed over a paralyzed body since she would deem it futile to do anything (the mandrake potion was almost ready and would have provided a certain remedy). Hence Madam Pomfrey may not have paid Hermione much attention. However, Harry and Ron sat beside her bed and looked at her, probably holding her hand as well. They were more observant of Hermione than anyone else, Because they cared about her.

Good one