TOP 20 HARRY POTTER PLOT HOLES

Noone ever said the ministry was moral, also everyone thought that sirius was guilty because of all the witnesses, they only use the dementors kiss in extreme cases, not even with someone like bellatrix lestrange. With sirius, they wanted to get it done with as fast as possible.

This isn't like taking a polygraph test, truth potion is magical and infallible. Sure, someone could tamper with a witness' memory, but it would still prove, at the very least, that Harry Potter didn't INTEND to lie about Voldemort, which is what he was accused of doing. And in a world where love potions are perfectly legal to trick someone into loving you, someone can't even CONSENT to taking a truth potion? That makes no sense.

youre forgetting one simple thing. if harry's mind had been tampered with by someone skilled enough (Voldemort or Dumbledore) into believing something the veritiserum wouldn't bring out the actual truth, it would bring out what harry's mind was made to believe to be true

exactly! And when they said Harry was lying, HELLO! TRUTH POTION=WHETHER VOLDEMORT IS ALIVE!

sorry but in real life too there are narcotic tests to find out the truth and lies but its not used for everyone.. same thing might be in harry potter..

Basically if you don't think you're lying you could still lie. You tell what you think is the truth. It's not infallible.

Just goes to show the character of the Ministry doesn't it? I mean, no where in the HP series is the Ministry referred to as a moral authority, if anything they are portrayed as a bunch of half terrified inbred power loving lot?

like we can just use "HYPNOTISM" in real life trials !! great question indeed.

This is just silly- this is like saying "Because justice is not upheld perfectly, why should we try to do anything just at all"

The use of veritaserum is banned in the Wizengamot because it's a belief that it can be fooled by using various methods. Also, most of their prisoners are very skilled people like death eaters, so you would probably think they would know all such means...

Firstly, like with real polygraphs, if you think something is true then the test says its true. I would think the same is true with Veritiserum, for example, if a deatheater does not consider killing muggles or muggle-borns as murder, then asking a deatheater under the influence on Veritiserum if he murdered a muggle-born he would still say no, because for him it is true. Secondly, in the case of Sirius, it seemed a open and shut case and there were a lot of witnesses who said they saw Sirius murder Pettigrew. Thirdly, as regretable as it is, governments are often overly liberal, especially when it comes to giving criminals rights...

Veritaserum, which compels the drinker to divulge the truth, would probably not work on people who were either tricked, Confunded, or had their memories modified. After all, had Dumbledore not required Harry to remain with him until "Mad-eye Moody" was revealed to be Barty Crouch Jr he would have been convinced that it was the real Mad-eye that had manipulated events all year and would have testified to the fact because it was true... as he saw it. Because of such a glaring gap in the potion's usability, and the likelihood that an evildoer would Confund or modify their own memory in order to get around this obsticle, the Ministry would likely have ruled that such "confessions" would not have been admissable. Dumbledore no doubt believed the one Crouch gave because 1) He was a Death Eater, 2) He was supposed to be dead, 3) He was caught mascarading as someone else, 4) He had no time to Confund himself prior to his capture, and 5) Because his account of events matched up with the other available facts precisely.

"That's like asking why we don't use a lie detector test on our own criminals... People still have rights and it's unfair to do that to them." That isn't why we don't use lie detectors. We don't use lie detectors because they are entirely unreliabile and give false positives/negatives all the time.

How could anyone have known Harry was alive? Anyone who saw Godric's Hollow and knew that Voldemort had visited probably assumed they were all dead. They weren't in a rush to search the ruins when they thought there would only be dead bodies.

it's just like a lie detecter - do you think every guy on maury isn't the daddy? i don't think so. those babies look just like them. they know it doesn't always work because people can trick those things & simple human/technological error.

That's like asking why we don't use a lie detector test on our own criminals... People still have rights and it's unfair to do that to them. I'm sure when the Death Eaters has control over the ministry, they did stoop to such levels. Also, just like someone can be trained to lie and not be caught, I'm sure someone can be trained to lie through the potion.

he had to be brave to betray his own friends

It's Veritaserum!! Verita is latin for truth, thus truthserum

JK rowling has said that, much like occulamancy, people can block there minds to Vertiserum. EG block its effects. in the case of Sirius the ministry thought that he was voldermorts 'right-hand man' and thought they had taught him some of his most powerful dark magic which would include becoming resistant to the effects of the truth potion.

I don't think this is a plot hole- I think its just a way of showing how unjust the ministry is.

That's the point. They're meant to be incompetent, inconsistent, etc.

rather than seeing this as a plot hole, doesn't seems that Jo is just lecturing the reader about a flawed justice system very alike ours?

The same reason Harry can't use it against Slughorn, Dumbledore mentions that Slughorn can probably resist it.

I've always wondered about this. Also, using the pensieve to study the witnesses' or defendant's memories of events in a trial Yeah, yeah, memories can be tampered with, but still, you'd think applying these two methods in combination with everything else would result in a more accurate verdict.

perhaps there are undesirable side effects to the frequent use of veritaserum? also, the MoM is a government which, like all governments, is on a budget. sending someone to Azkaban is probably far cheeper than constantly brewing veritaserum.

in usa u can be killed for a crime but have the right to remain quiet in questioning.

Yes, J.K. Rowling said that people can pretend to be under the truth potion's effects but actually be resisting it. If it was a matter of going to Azkaban forever, then knock the person out like they did to Crouch Jr. in the 4th book and I'd like to see them try and "resist actually drinking" that potion then. And as for them not working 100%, there are few methods that do, is even an eyewitness 100%? No. Veritaserum should be something that is used as one piece of evidence in an entire trial.

J.K. Rowling has stated that veritaserum is not relied upon by magical law enforcement because it is not 100% reliable, and people can develop a certain level of resistance to the serum's effects. However, I would also like to point out that the Ministry of Magic seems to have a legal system that is, for sheer lack of a better phrase, completely retarded. Maybe that's why Fugde seems to always appear to handle relatively minor matters, like arresting Hagrid in book 2and meeting Harry at the leaky Cauldron in book 3? It's as if this man has nothing better to do or no one capable to delegate these tasks to, both of which we know to be untrue.

Apparently if you get force fed the potion one can stop it from going down their throat and could pretend to be under it. I've always wondered why they don't us leginmency but I suppose it is illegal...

J.K. never went into what happens if you use veritaserum on someone who has been Confunded or Imperiused. The one person we've seen it used on was Barty Crouch Jr., who had no time to mount a defense against it. It is possible, even likely, that veritaserum has its limitations and is therefore not a reliable method of extracting truth in a courtroom.

Veritaserum is not infallible, Crouch (powermad) sended him to Azkaban without a trial, since there where many eyewitnesses. Even with veritaserum Crouch could have said that Sirius was using trickery to render himself inmune to it.

Hmmm... I've thought about that many times... I guess like real truth serum, the potion forces people to recount what they think is true, which may not necessarily be the actual truth... Tampered minds can render the potion useless... But I do find the ministry kinda efficient; underage magic detection anyone?

In the fifth book, it was revealed that Bartemius Crouch Sr. (who was half mad at the time) ordered people to be sent to Azkaban without trial. And the Dementors didn't always do the kiss, that would be equal to a death sentence in our court system.

The ministry of magic is flawed and often unjust, like many governments around the world. On the use of the truth potion, Veritaserum; like lie detectors, it is not foolproof and can be decieved.

I would just point out that in the US, polygraphs are inadmissable in most court rooms.

When the holder of the wand dies, the power of the wand dies with him. It cannot be rekindled if the wand is taken from his body. Sure, Voldemort could have taken the wand, but its power wouldn't have belonged to him

That's kinda like asking why was Harry sorted into the house of lions, why hermione wasn't in ravenclaw and why Neville didn't originally go to hufflepuff. People change as they mature. Originally Severus was more suited for slytherin and pettigrew gryffindor

Well, Pettigrew ,at that time was brave, I guess. Maybe the hat saw his potential, but Peter did not.

The sorting hat cannot predict the future, takes individual preference into account as well as which house would be of benefit. This is not a plot hole if you understand the deeper messages that rowling attempts to convey.

As Dumbledore once said "Sometimes I think we sort too soon." Why was Snape in Slytherin when he was called "the bravest man I ever knew?"

JK had to make choices. Putting Pettigrew in Gryffindor was easier than trying to explain why 3 Gryffs would associate with a Slytherin, or Hufflpuff. People from different houses know each other, they even date. But it would only be the Marauders who could truly keep Remus' affliction a secret. Personally I would have thought Snape would have followed Lily into Gryff, even if he wanted Slytherin.

James and Serious were together on the Hogwarts Express. There is NO evidence that either Remus or Pettigrew even knew who they were until they ended up in the same house. Peter never did anything in the books except play "kiss up". He was a coward, thru and thru. He only did one brave thing is his life and that got him killed. He killed out of fear, not nerve. As for Neville not belonging in Gryffindor--I have always felt that Neville was always brave on the inside.

The hat sorts the kids into where they belong. I mean Voldemort had all of the qualities of a "Griffindor" just in his evil ways.

It annoys me that Gryffindore is always treated like the best house that can do no wrong. You can be in the house and be unkind, and bravery and nerve and daring also coincides with recklessness and arrogance. There are no 'good and bad' houses! Slytherin is always villainised , but just because ambition is there main quality how does this make for cruelty all the time? Sure, a lot of bad wizards have cropped up from it, but how does that make each individual a, well, Voldemort? It also reflects how close minded the Gryffs are for stereotyping them. At your school are there four bodies of people that are brave, clever, loyal and ambitious? No. People are not just one or the other, everyone has their own complex personality. The housing system does not mark people as 'really brave' or 'so so brainy'. It looks into them and sees where they belong. Does Neville seem brave before the seventh book? No! He quakes at the thought of his grandma. Each house is not just a groupd of clever or loyal people, otherwise there would be four personalities in the wizarding world and I wouldn't read the books.

No, no, no. Peter Pettigrew was put in Gryffindor for a reason, just like he was made a Maurader for a reason. Furthermore, the Hat doesn't see into the future. If it had, it probably would've screamed "THIS BOY WILL GROW UP TO BE A KILLER" at VOLDEMORT'S sorting. It knew that Peter Pettigrew had drive, loyalty, and bravery. So it put him in Gryffindor.

Bravery isn't the only quality of Gryffindor. There is also nerve, chivalry and daringness, and they aren't just synonyms. For exemple, to kill someone, which i believe all Death Eaters have done, takes nerver, but is not an act of bravery

I believe Pettigrew changed during his years in Hogwarts. From the memories Harry witnessed it was clear that James and Sirius treated Peter a bit condescending. This is enough to create envy and even hatred in a man. Also coward as he may be, Pettigrew showed bravery when he helped Voldemort, even if it was bad. Nobody said all Gryffindors have to be good and kind.

I think pettigrew was a hatstall but in a fan fic the hat wants to put him in hufflpuff to teach him loyalty but peter begs the hat to put him in gryffindor with his friends. Like harry told albus severus that hat does take your opinion into account

Everyone changes, even he. He chould of been brave then but soon turned into a cowerd.

He had to be sorted somewhere. He was not smart enough for Ravenclaw, not loyal enough for Hufflepuff and not ambitious enough for Slytherin. He was a tinsywinsey bit brave.

McLaggen anyone?

he was brave. he just chose to use it in a negative way. as dumbledore said,"it is our choices that make us who we are". Pettigrew was brave to risk spying on the Order and relaying to Voldemort, just as Snape could be considered brave for spying on Voldemort for the Order. Pettigrew also had a lot of guts to take the mark and a lot more to sell his own friends to Voldie. He was brave, but in chose to use it for evil purposes.

Pettigrew did not die "freeing Harry and defying Voldemort". That is quite the stretch - Pettigrew died because of a moments hesitation when Harry reminds him that he once saved Peter's life. In that moment, the hand that was created by Voldemort for Peter betrayed him. I think the best explanations here have already been mentioned - Pettigrew idolized the qualities of Gryffindor, and failed to rise to these qualities when push came to shove (as opposed to Neville, who was a coward but ended up being very courageous).

Pettigrew chose Gryffindor just like Harry!

peter petigrew died freeing hary and defying voldemort. somthing that took great courage. he always had it in him, it just took extreme circumstances to bring it out

On top of lots of other good points made here. The sorting hat does make mistakes, It just usually refuses to admit to them. From Pottermore: The Sorting Hat is notorious for refusing to admit it has made a mistake in its sorting of a student. On those occasions when Slytherins behave altruistically or selflessly, when Ravenclaws flunk all their exams, when Hufflepuffs prove lazy yet academically gifted and when Gryffindors exhibit cowardice, the Hat steadfastly backs its original decision.

In addition to the people saying it was Pettigrew's choice, I believe JKR once mentioned that she believed the Hat considered him suitable because the traits of a Gryffindor - bravery, some kind of loyalty - were what Pettigrew idolized (not necessarily possessed).

He was sorted into Gryffindor because that's where he belonged when the sorting took place. In PoA he mentions that the information he gave up was tortured out of him. Maybe he had always had the intentions of a good wizard and only turned bad after he was tortured because he felt as though he had no other option after what he did.

Well it is also very possible that peter asked to be in Gryffindor as harry did, He may have never intended to be a dark wizard, but as Lupin and Sirius said he was attracted to power, and what sounds more powerful than Gryffindor the strong and brave?

People can change. Neville was a coward in the beginning so why wasn't he put in Hufflepuff? Neville rose to the occasion whereas Peter fell apart. Peter was a very easily intimidated boy. I'm sure he wanted to be put in Gryffindor to be popular amongst the entire school not just one house. In Gryffindor he would be more likely to find fame and glory, the qualities he wished to posses.

because he must have asked for it - that's the most important thing in hogwarts, that help will be given to those who ask. also, look how harry got sorted into gryffindor - because he asked.

Because JKR wanted to. If he hadn't then he wouldn't have been friends with the Marauders then there would have been no story.

He was brave, loyal (yes, loyalty is both a gryffindor and hufflepuff trait), and he had nerve. He kept Moony's secret through the school years and did not kill harry in the Malfoy Manor which may have been too late, but still showed his deeper, more innocent kid side from school. I do not think Wormtail was bad through out his life, it was daring and took nerve to join the death eaters. It may have been wrong from a certain point of view but he had that nerve. I do believe he always needed numbers. "friends" and so after school, felt his friends may not fancy him anymore, and tried to make some more permanent form of a "team" .. or of course he just asked the Sorting Hat to put him in Gryffindor.. :P

It's never said only Slytherin produces dark wizards, just that they have produced the most

the sorting hat considers what house you want to be put in

I think the better question is how come it was said only Slytherin produced dark wizards if Black was in Gryffindor and everyone believed him to be a Death Eater?

for all you that said he was loyal and thats why he was sorted to gryffindor first as was said before huf is the loyal house and secondly look what he did to his ''friends" he wasnt loyal at all and he was a down right coward always looking to be under the shadow of other more powerful people!! i still dont get how he made it to gryf!

Also, Ron was sorted into Gryffindor and could be cowardly at times. But, he shows his potential in the series.

I agree with the comment about Pettigrew having the potential to be a Gryffindor and the fact that he could be brave and courageous at times. But, those of you trying to explain why this isn't an error with "Pettigrew was loyal", I just wanted to point out the fact that loyalty is the main characteristic of a Hufflepuff.

When Peter was young his mind was clear and he had no intention of joining Voldemort, he began supporting Voldemort after he was sorted into Gryffindor and during his time at Hogwarts I feel like he deserved to be a Gryffindor but after that Pettigrew went towards the dark side but before he was a fine man.

I don't think that he chose to be in Gryffindor, that was a Harry thing alone. But I do think that Pettigrew was brave and loyal, like a Gryffindor should be. At times, yes, he was cowardly, but Harry was also, sometimes. Pettigrew still was loyal and fought against the good guys. And Slytherins aren't necessarily BAD, they're cunning, just like the books say, so Pettigrew SHOULDN'T be in Slytherin since he's not one bit cunning. Pettigrew should be in Gryffindor because he was courageous enough each day to live through Voldy's taunts and to fight for what he wanted.

The hat sorts according to one's potential. Peter had to potential to be a Gryffindor he just chose another path when he got older. Not everyone in Slytherin is bad they are cunning and ambitious. Peter was loyal,he had to have some degree of bravery in order to be a marauder. I

The hat takes your choice in to account as it did with Harry. Pettigrew must have wanted to be in Griffindor with his friends and so told the hat to put him in there

Just because you are afraid, doesn’t mean you aren’t brave. Courage is feeling fear, but continuing onwards. How can you be courageous if you aren’t really afraid of anything? Plus, every student has the ability to choose what House they want to be in, for example, in Harry’s case. He chose to be in Gryffindor. That’s a big thing in the books: It is YOUR decision, always. The hat just makes suggestions.

To the two people who said Neville and Ron were soted into Gryffindor because their parents were brave - I think you are extremely, EXTREMELY wrong, that you couldn't be farther from the truth. Ron and Neville were both very, very brave. Ancestory has nothing to do with it.

Though Pettigrew should have gone into Hufflepuff or Slytherin I think, he did hesitate to kill Harry. He probably didn't know what would happen if he did though, but if Voldemort HAD told him what would happen, only a true Gryffindor wouldn't have killed Harry.

Yeah, he should have been sorted into Hufflepuff

He was VERY loyal to Voldemort, though I suppose it was out of fear. I mean, he cut off his own hand.

I don't know why a lot of people assume that Hufflepuff would have suited him. Hufflepuff's are known for their loyalty, and Pettigrew wasn't loyal to his friends. He wasn't loyal to the Death Eaters or Voldemort either. He stayed with them out of fear. I imagine when he joined up, he did it because he was worried the Order would lose in the end so he wanted to be on the side that would most protect him. If you'll remember, it was a hufflepuff who stood up first to say that they wanted to stay and fight in book 7. I don't know what house he would belong to, to be honest. Gryffindor and hufflepuf don't suit him, he wasn't smart enough to be a ravenclaw and somehow I can't see him as a Slytherin either. Only thing I can agree on is that he asked to be a gryffindor.

Apologies, this was written over a beer. I meant Harry chose to be in Gryffindor, not slytherin. And pettigrew chose to be in gryffindor

As Dumbledore points out to Harry, (when Harry notes he can do all the things that Voldemort can do (I.e parseltongue, and with the fact the hat initially went to place him in slytherin, making him stress that he could become a dark wizard) he tells Harry that it is the CHOICES that make us who we are. Harry CHOSE to be in slytherin, and throughout the rest of the books demonstrated choices that showed who he was, and his character. The hat has no way of knowing what choices pettigrew might make later in life, just his potential to do things. Pettigrew could have been ambitious, courageous, and forceful in choosing grudgingly (much like Harry) but then he made his choices. Also the sorting hat in no way proclaims to be a 'beacon' fir bad wizards, as in it has no obligation or it seems desire to alert 'good' wizards to those it sees as 'bad', purely because it cannot see the future, merely the potential.

Could it possibly be because the sorting hat takes what you want into consideration? Harry specifically says that to Albus in "19 Years Later."

it isn't the Hat's place to judge, he is merely their to sort. working on this bases, the reason Peter was in Gryffindor could be simply he had no where TO go and asked to be in Gryffindor. he's not loyal and hardworking like a Hufflepuff. he's not cunning and ambitious like a slytherin, he's not smart like a Ravenclaw and he's not brave like a Gryffindor. so he asked to be in Gryffindor (because of his mother's pressure I'm assuming.

As other people (and Dumbledore) have said before me, people change over time. It's quite possible Pettigrew had the necessary traits to be sorted into Gryffindor in his first year at Hogwarts, but developed less desirable traits as time went on. Snape is a prime example of this: he was sorted into Slytherin when he was eleven, yet exemplified everything it means to be a Gryffindor at the time of his death.

The hat doesn't admit to making mistakes, but it does. This is probably one of them.

This is really simple if you think about it. The truth is that people change over time or possibly Peter felt diffently later. The sorting hat cannot tell the future no matter how powerful it is. While doing research into sorting you will find that only a worthy gryffindor would be able to pull the sword out of the sorting hat, I'm sure Peter would never be allowed to do so. But the saying "worthy" states that they're may be those that aren't quite as worthy. Not to mention as I said before, people change. Just because Draco was sorted into slytherin did not mean he became bad in the end, he seen the truth and became good. Peter was scared and worried and probably for tortured to gain information. Most death eaters are scared. It all goes into the fact that there is good and evil in everyone. Are choices make us who we are

1. Sorting hat takes your desires into consideration, so if Pettigrew *really* didn't want to be in Hufflepuff, Hat likely asked him which house he preferred. Perhaps he was brave in his first year. Who knows? 2. As far as I'm concerned, James Potter and Sirius Black SHOULD have both been in Slytherin. They were bullies, just like Goyle and Crabbe (only more charismatic). Both film and book canon paint them as bullies to Snape when they were children/at Hogwarts. The only one of the Marauders who I think deserved to be in Gryffindor was Lupin. 3. Did anyone else notice during Snape's last scene from the movie (Hallows 2) there was a Gryffindor scarf hanging in the boathouse ~just~ behind him? :)

If you remember the first book, nobody would believe Longbottom could have the required qualities to be in Gryffindor. Maybe the hat sees what is inside, but remember that the main message of Harry Potter series is that we are what we decide to be. So probably Pettigrew was just like Longbottom, but he ended to be very different from what he was expected to be.

I wrote the comment 8th down that said he was sort of brave in his own way. I hate Pettigrew. Don't get me wrong. But the elimination, I think, worked better than the bravery explanation. You say he would've made a better Hufflepuff? What's the main Hufflepuff trait? Loyalty. Oh, yeah, no one's more loyal than the scum who trades his friend's life for personal benefit. He's not exceptionally brave. Not really. But there are other Gryffindors who don't strike me as being extremely courageous. I mean, bravery isn't always a defining trait in a person. Someone can be brave but do some cowardly things. I think he desperately wanted to be brave, but was more concerned with what could better and elongate his life than what was right. The word "brave" doesn't constitute doing what is right. Voldemort is brave (to a certain extent), but I certainly can't see him being a Gryffindor. Also, he prized bravery. He practically hero-worshipped the Marauders. And people can change. He could have been braver when he was younger. Think of Snape; he went from being a deceitful, petty, jealous fool to the noble man he proved himself to be. James certainly acted like an 'arrogant toerag'. But he wasn't, not really. Sorry if this is kind of confusing. I have a lot of logic that I'm trying to dump on you.

@Comment above... Yeah well, hes telling snape that, not Pettigrew + I already know desires are a main factor with sorting. Pettigrew is just a pathetic, with no real desires or attibutes. Therefore he should have been in hufflepuff. If you want to retort this idea, please back up with related proof, not random quotes.

"you are a far braver man by far than karkoroff sometimes i think we sort to early' not an exact quote but there you go

LOL! The person always agreeing with the comment right above is clearly the same person. Not many people reply that close to each other, as this isn't a much visited website. “The Pot Hole in Kreacher's Tale (Deathly Hallows)”- On that as well, which further proves my accusation (sorry if I’m wrong, but hey, I’m just stating my opinion out there). Anyways, there is no exact proof that he had made friends of any kind in the train (as I have explained above). It was just Sirius and James (along with Snape and Lily). So you can not presume that he wanted to be with his non-made friends (yet). As explained above, attribute wise he is a Hufflepuff. However, he may have been just as confused as Harry as to which house to be sorted into (Harry didn't mind any house except Slytherin). The only two explanations I can think of is, as somebody stated above, Gryffindor is conveyed as the house of 'good' as opposed to 'evil' being Slytherin. So, Pettirgrew might have been scared of Slytherin so he chose to be in the house of 'good' were he won't be bullied. He may have desired to be in a house which consistent of the attributes of brave and incoherently strength- he wanted to find a 'good' and 'strong' house to which he could rely on. Throughout the book, it never, ever states that he wanted to be brave! So please, stop making assumptions with absolutely no proof. -AKZ

doesnt it say sumwhere that the sorting hat will listen to you if you really want to go in2 a house... like you can pretty much choose anyway? he probably just wanted to be with his m8s... i think its awkward how theres a 'best' house - gryffindor, and an obviously evil house that makes all the evil wizards, like shouldnt they put some early childhood education scheme in place for slytherins teaching the first years not to be evil?

^ this is what I believe is correct too. It is very possible Pettigrew was so desperate to be brave and courageous and heroic that the sorting hat saw this and put him into Gryffindor. As Harry specifically 'requested' not to be in Slytherin, Pettigrew could have been wishing for Gryffindor. The sorting hat looks at desires and wishes of the person it is sorting, not necessarily their actual qualities. This makes sense as all students are sorted at the age of 11 or 12, when we are not really sure who we are and what we want to be.

Takes choice into consideration. Come on now thats in the 2nd Book.

@The two guests above me- Contradictory to what you just said, I believe you are mistaken between bravery/ shivery and plain crowdedness/ saving your own skin. You could claim that Pettigrew traits are "brave" when you can quite easily say they are ‘great’, but being a "coward" is the exact opposite trait of a Gryffindor. Pettigrew work is far from intelligent (deducting Ravenclaw from the equation) and he’s not "evil" or an exceptionally great wizard for Slitherin. Therefore, through the process of "elimination" as you state, the only house to except "the rest", I believe he should have been sorted into Huffllepuff. Gryffindor never run away, this is further shown when the most amount of people stay for the battle of Hogwarts. However, less people stayed in Hufflepuff in comparison to Gryffindor. Therefore, loyalty and bravery are more purposeful for a trait of Gryffindor. As I stated above, he is much more of a coward then loyal, and he is unexceptional- therefore through the process of deduction/elimination; I believe he should have been in Hufflepuff. Also, I'm sure friendship would have rubbed off other Hufflepuff’s towards him- he would have no reason to betray them or need to be brave at all within Hufflepuff. -AKZ

According to Minerva McGonagall, all four of the houses have produced exceptional witches and wizards in their time, but due to Helga Hufflepuff's policy of accepting any student and its usually poor performance in the House Cup, Hufflepuff is often thought of as the place where students are sorted when they don't have any of the qualities of the other three houses, which have more defined attributes. Perhaps as a consequence of the broad principles of acceptance upon which it is founded, Hufflepuff has been stereotyped as the house of the unexceptional (or, more unkindly, as "a lot o' duffers"). This also corresponds with the Sorting Hat's song where it states: "Dear Hufflepuff, she took the rest and taught them all she knew." -AKZ

^ that is a really really good point about the process of elimination and how even in his weak backbone he did have a lot of bravery to pursue the things he did, I agree with your opinions and like your explanation

I think there was a side to Peter few others ever saw, one that he probably didn't even realize he had, but the hat did. If you analyze his actions, there is a sort of bravery. He's brave enough to go and befriend the Marauders when he was clearly not at their level, he was brave enough to go to Voldemort and be prepared to face their wrath if it didn't succeed. He was brave enough to orchestrate a whole scene showing Sirius as a murderer, brave enough to feign his own death, determined enough to stay a rat for years. He was brave enough to undergo the transformation into an Animagus for his friend, though it was obviously much harder for him then for the others. And it can't have been a fun experience being a tiny rat in a room with a rampaging werewolf, a dog, and a stag. Some of his manipulativeness is sort of Slytherin-esque, but I don't think he was clever or "evil" enough for that house. He's obviously not a Hufflepuff. Contradictory to what everyone seems to think, they aren't just leftovers. Hufflepuffs are very loyal--can't say that about Wormtail, now can you?--and accepting. He's not smart enough for Ravenclaw, that's for sure. So, by process of elimination and looking further into his actions, I would conclude that he's a Gryffindor, yeah.

For the Patel twins, they could have been muggle borns, plus one was smarter than the other, even with idential twins this happens. E.G. Zack and Cody (disney channel show)- one is braver, one is smarter by far. Hmm, Snape family was also in syltherin + he wanted to be in slytherin = that's he got into slytherin (bestowing the better judgement of the hat redundant). The choices you decide are the biggest factor in sorting. Like I just said, Sirius detested his family and he implied to James (on the train) "maybe I'll break the tradition". I just don't see how Pettigre would know which house he would want to be sorted into. In my opinion his he's way to useless, so he should have been in hufflepuff, J.K rowling doesn't state in any way, that he should have EVER been in gryfindoor. Although, she does state (indirectly) many factors why he should NOT be in gryfindoor. P.S= Why did you menstion Sirius mirror, that he gave to Harry? I know its not a plot hole, I wrote a whole article above stating why it is not a plot hole LOL.

Ok, which House your parents/family are/were in has no effect whatsoever on which House you are sorted into (the Patil twins are in two different Houses, Gryffindor & Ravenclaw, & Sirius was the first in his family to be in Gryffindor after generations of Slytherins!). There's a part in book 7 where Dumbledore says to Snape, "Sometimes I think we Sort too soon...", as in some people end up in Houses when they would be better suited to other Houses (in this case implying that Snape would have been better suited to Gryffindor, as Dumbledore says this after Snape says, "I am not such a coward as that."). So personally, I think it's that simple & not a pothole at all. (Nor is the thing about Harry's magic mirror, that is all perfectly explained in the books. Most of these things are not potholes if you'd only read the books a bunch of times.)

"I mean Nevelive, had the blood of 2 brave parents (ron was sorted into gryfindoor for the same reason, because of inhertiage). Pettigrew as far as we know, his hertiage has never been stated, we have no idea who are his parents." Sirius Black did state the he was always a cowards, and he always stayed with the people who were the toughest- therefore James was no longer considered to be the strongest, so he switched his allegiance (Pharaphrased). Therefore, I'm guessing he was always a coward- also in the 7th book, harry see's Pettigrew being overwhelmed by the fact that he was friends with James, Sirius and Lupin. Where did they say in the 3rd book, that he was similar to Neville? Hmm valid point there, that he could have matured into a cowards, contrary to Neville becoming brave. Also, Dumbledore saying the the sorting hat might sort too early (2nd book). Conversely, Pettigrew did not know sirius and james in the train (wasn't with them- in snape memory). Therefore, he couldn't have known which house he wanted to belong to, as he didn't know who was the strongest (which person he could depend on).

Perhaps Peter was different when he was in first year. The earliest we see of him when he is in fifth year in Snape's memory and at that point he doesn't seem very disloyal or overly cowardly. These negative traits might only have been his defining traits as he matured over the years. The teachers also compare him to Neville in the third book but I can't quite remember exactly what they say that could either refute or reject my suggestion

Additonal comment to the one posted above: I mean, this is a plothole, if pettigrew was in hufflepuff, james and lily would never had their fedelious charm broken- leading to arry not having a scar- leadin gto the prohecy not being created about him etc. So pettigrew being in gryffindor is key. In my opnion, J.K rowling should have spent more time thinking about pettigrew and as to why he was sorted into gryffindor. Please do reply back, and give me some feedback as to what you think :) Please do mind my grammer mistakes, I couldn't be asked to read it back :P

hmmmmm, OK. Many people have given reasons as to why he was sorted in to it, and I would like to state they are all wrong (unless proven otherwise). Did pettigrew even know James potter before he was sorted? If i recall, it was sirus and james talking alongisde lily and snape. NO PETTIGREW. Loyaliy can be shown in many forms, but when pettigrew owed his life to harry, I do not believe this be loyality. I mean, owing somebody and loyality are 2 different things. I mean, if you owed somebody money, it wouldn't mean you are loyal if you pay them back, it just means you are fuffling your in-depth. It makes you 'even' with the other person. I can understand if pettigrew never, but he has remorse- he isn't a bad guy, but that still doesn't make him loyal- because he does betray them many more times (just hesitating and showing a sign of remorse, meant betraying voldermort- which got him killed lol). He is much more suited for hufflepuff. I mean nevelive, had the blood of 2 brave parents (ron was sorted into gryfindoor for the same reason, because of inhertiage). Pettigrew as far as we know, his hertiage has never been stated, we have no idea who are his parents. For me, I just believe this is a miscalcuation on J.K rowling part- she never was good at maths. I mean she states in a interview, that she thought there should be many thousands of students within hogwards (and states it is the only school within britain- britain population is millions). In all fairness it is the best school, as it is under the best head master (best wizard in his generation) dumbledore (parahrased from hagrid, and the choclate frog card- and obviously we all know this- through conclusive information given to us about dumbledore greatness).

I ask that same question to myself all the time ¬_¬. Could anybody please explain this?

The memory could have easily been altered by a wizard of dumbledore's skill. Slughorn had power but was lacking in finesse. dumbledore had power AND finesse and could have easily altered the memory without leaving any telltale "footprints". And don't forget that Dumbledore is the only wizard Voldemort was ever scared of and it was widely known. and Fudge had his head too far up his a$$ to see the truth

You're missing the point. Fudge wouldn't have believed it, no matter how convincing. He was so scared that it might be true, he wouldn't allow himself to face the terrible possibility.

They would have said Dumbledore tampered with it. And I'm sure he could have done so much better than Slughorn did.

In the film version, the Pensieve is said to show past memories, but the conversation between Harry and Dumbledore in the book says it shows memories AND thoughts; AD: "It is called a Pensieve. I sometimes use find . . . that I simply have too many thoughts and memories crammed into my mind. AD: "One simply siphons the excess thoughts from one's mind . . . and examines them at one's leisure." HP: "You mean . . . that stuff's your thoughts?" AD: "Certainly" So Fudge and the rest of the Ministry could easily say that the vision is just what Harry THOUGHT happened.

@ comments talking about memory training and memories being altered .... 1.Slughorn's memory is tampered with, you can tell because it goes cloudy and stuff... Harry's memory of the graveyard would be crystal clear... 2. You don't need training to extract memories from someone, in HBP, Slughorn was very drunk, in DH, Snape was virtually dead, etc. 3. Fudge not believing Harry's crystal clear memory would be absolutely insane, just a way of JKR getting out of a situation where she's beaten herself in the universe she's created . This is the biggest plot hole there is, along with questions like why Time Turners,Veritaserum and FF aren't used more often. These people are WIZARDS, Wizards of extreme skill, as well as the Department of Mysteries, can INVENT spells... Voldy and Snape learn to fly, Snape invents Sectumsempra, Muffliato etc... when you think of it like that, the whole plot can almost fall to pieces... so we wouldn't have the engaging books that we do if JKR started bringing in really advanced magic too much.

Showing it to Fudge wouldn't have proven anything. Recall that Slughorn altered his memory before giving it to Dumbledore. Harry could have done the same. Also, for making Harry recount the events, it's possible that you have to be trained to be able to extract your own memories. Note that only adult wizards are shown to extract memories. Harry has had no training.

The same can be asked for Sirius' sake. Why would he spend years eluding capture when Harry, Ron, Hermione, and Lupin were available to show Peter Pettigrew was alive in the Shrieking Shack?

for the bit about Dumbledore making Harry relive the horror, its only because "Understanding is the first step to acceptance, and only with acceptance can there be recovery" also Harry needed to talk about it because "numbing the pain for a while will make it worse when you finally feel it." It was better for Harry to tell Dumbledore and Sirius what happened than for them to see it because it would help Harry to accept the death and to get over the death of Cedric, he would recover quicker, it would be less painful for him.- Jedhev

Actually this goes back to someone elses point about the truth potion. Why wouldn't they give Harry the truth potion? Do they really believe that a small kid who knows no mental magic or very little at this point can defeat it. Well get a moggle truth detector. Also why isn't Dumbledores word enough alone? He is the most powerful and trusted wizard around and yet people just dismis what he says?

But Harry didn't know how to pull the memories from his mind... And like others said, the MoM wouldn't believe his memories anyway

Because the point of this whole endeavour is to torture three young teenagers, with the bulk of the torture on Harry. Why else?

memories can be changed and modified just like Professor Slughorn modified his memory to make it look like he yelled at Tom Riddle

No matter what Harry said or did, the Ministry would make up some weak excuse to say that he was lying. They would say that Dumbledore had modified Harry’s memory or taught Harry how to change his own memory. There was no problem that Harry didn’t have evidence (he had a dead body, Cedric, Barty Crouch Jr., a portkey, the burning dark mark of Snape, the fleeing of Karkoroff, a dead Barty Crouch Sr. and Winky’s testimony of Barty Crouch Jr.’s life. The problem was that the Ministry just didn’t want to believe he was back. Fudge was weak-minded and didn’t want to deal with the problems that would have arose.

Just saying but Dumbledore never seemed to want the ministry knowing he even had the pensieve as to my guessing it was an ancient rune artifact (I think it was in the 4th or 5th book he noted quickly hiding it from them when they entered his office), maybe the trade of letting the ministry know of Voldemort and risking loosing the pensieve was just not worth it and he had a different plan for it.

Yes, people can tamper with memories, but it's hard to do and when most do, they end up looking like Slughorn's memory. But do you really think that a 4th year student like Harry Potter would've known how to tamper with his own memory? I think this is a legitimate plothole. They could've just extracted his memory/he would probably give it up voluntarily to them if it meant that he didn't have to relive it himself.

Well Snape was able to procure memories of when he was only ten years old so it is possible to get memories of your childhood though maybe not when you still are a child. Regardless I think that would have been a better way of dealing with it since Dumbledore uses exact quotes from Voldemort when talking to Harry in the Half Blood Prince which I just think seems a bit unlikely. After all the trauma he;d been through I doubt Harry would be directly quoting word for word everything everyone said.

Not only that, they did mention at one point that extracting a memory is not as easy as it seems and usually only adults can give memories. And it usually cannot be done of memories when they were "children" I do not know if this means a certain age like 16?

People can tamper with their memories. I imagine that if someone got really good at it, the fog wouldn't show up like it did with Slughorn.

Additional comment: by relived, I mean re-told the story by means of the pensieve.

F & G definitely would have thought that Peter was just another roommate. They never asked Ron about Dean, who must have been around Ron a lot of the time.

To those people saying that Hogwarts is sooo crowded...there were at MOST 280 students total. I mean think about it, in all of Gryffindor, there are only 5 guys in Harry's year! do the math.

Scabbers used to sneak out and roam through the castle all the time, especially at night. Ron and Harry used to sneak out of bed too. he chances of the twins finding PP next to Ron are low.

One small think I would add is that Scabbers was not always Rons' rat. In the book, Scabbers was given to Ron after Percy was bought an owl (and new robes) after becoming a prefect during Ron and Harry's first year. Presumably, Scabbers could have been seen in or around Percy's room prior to the start of the series. As many comments suggest that is not in the nature of the twins to check on their younger brother; might it have been in their nature to check on their older brother (perhaps to plan a prank) during the first year?

To the people who keep saying that the twins wouldn't have ever checked up on Ron, keep in mind that Ron is Harry Potter's best friend, and that they are well known for sneaking out of bed. Think to 1st year when they get all the hassle for the dragon incident. Also with everything that happens to and around Harry and Ron, you think they wouldn't be looking 2nd year to try and find out about the Heir of Slytherin, or 3rd year with Sirius? It does take them a bit to give it to him that year after all. Beyond that, the sorting at the beginning of the year ensures that they know more or less who is sorted. With this being Harry Potter's dorm, they'd notice the students living there. There's only 5, not hard to remember.

I think that this plot hole has already been explained pretty well so I just want to comment the second to last comment: How could no-one create something similar to the Marauder's Map? Because not only were the Marauder's clever, they came up with the orginial idea to make the map and never told anyone, thus making it hard for others to do the same since they'd never thought of it.

I think there was probably so many people in Hogwarts and crowded together, it was really hard to see anyone. They probably used the map when they were sneaking around and Filch was the only one in the halls. Or maybe they thought Peter was a roommate.

While i think it's definitely an issue that Fred and George never noticed Peter, I think the biggest problem is - if this magic existed and could be wielded by a few students - how on earth could dumbledore, none of the teachers or the ministry of magic create something similar? And in that case, how would anyone be able to hide anywhere? Or be able to fool anyone with a polyjuice potion or animagus or the like?

hardly anyone had heard of Peter Pettigrew. McGonagall has to explain to adult wizards (who would've seen it in the news at the time) who exactly he was. How would Fred and George know?

Yeah, a plot hole. There are many plot holes in the seven books, lets see how many you spot.

no, ron's always had scabbers. hes on the train in the first movie; 'turn this stupid fat rat yellow' etc

I agree with the person who pointed out the twins said they didn't need it anymore since they knew all the passages. But anyway, you clearly don't understand the characters of Fred and George at all. (Or teenage brothers for that matter). No, they would not have pulled out the map to check on their little brother. As for whipping out the map to check on him while he was sleeping- are you kidding???

did anybody ever think that since peter was in on creating the map that it wouldnt show him especially since they all were reffered to in their animagus forms

They assumed it was a child in bed next to Ron but was sleep walking, honestly check JKRs website or the interview she gave mugglenet.com

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet, but when Fred and George hand the map to Harry, they say they don't need it for they already know all the secret passages and stuff, so what leads us to think the even used it? Besides since they used it for the secret passages, they'd only be looking for Filch. I read a comment about them taking the map to their house, correct me if wrong but the map was intended to show just Hogwarts, not the place where the map was at layout.

readers commonly forget that there are ghosts in these books. since peter was assumed dead, could they not have thought he was simply a ghost lingering around but too afraid to show himself? i mean "everyone" supposedly knew how he died and all that was left was his finger, who knows? the boys may have even tried to rouse peter's spirit thinking he was a ghost and just wouldn't reveal himself so they discarded the fact after said failed attempt. it's a book, you're supposed to use your "imagination."

I'm pretty sure the Marauders Map doesn't show the common rooms and dormitories, this is because only members of a house know where their own common rooms (and dorms) are. The only way Harry Potter was able to find and go into the Ravenclaw and Slytherin common rooms was because he was led there. He followed some Slytherins to their common room and Luna led him to the Ravenclaw common room.

They didn't know who Peter Pettigrew was and they wouldn't have cared, and not bothered really checking up on Ron. Remember Harry only knew who Peter was because he learned it earlier, Fred and George weren't there.

even if they were in bunk beds ron and pettigrew would still have appeared on top of each other on the map a lot of the time

maybe they were intended to be in bunk beds? so maybe fred and george just thought peter was another kid on the top bunk or the bottom bunk

When one is out marauding through the castle you have more important things to worry about than what's going on in your idiot brother's room. Look at how Harry uses it. The Map is too big and complex to take in all its information at once and they wouldn't've whipped it out just to see if Ron's up in his room, anyone could've seen what they were up to. It was only when he was far from Hogwarts and missing one person in partucular that Harry thought of taking it out and checking to see if Ginny was okay. The twins wouldn't have had that kind of quiet time on their hands to say nothing of their lack of interest in what Ron was up to.

easy, they thought he was gay with some guy named Peter & wanted to avoid an awkward conversation.

Fred and George say to Ron that they have been trying to deny that he is related to them for years, I think this shows exactly how un-parental they are. Why would they have bothered looking exactly at Rons dorms.. When they themselves share the same common room which is also only accessible to gryffindors. They used the map for sneaking around other parts of the HUGE castle where there are HUNDREDS of students and they also said they had it pretty much memorised by the time they gave it to harry.

Do you really think that they know every Gryffindor students name? Even if they did, do you think they would bother looking at a map of Gryffindor tower when they were out and about searching Hogwarts? Scabbers was described as being frequently lost. Ron loses him on a number of occasions and Hagrid had to return Scabbers just before they all went to the shrieking shack. Peter was probably outside of Hogwarts doing things to try and bring back Voldemort so he wouldn't show up on the map.

he always loses scabbers, scabbers is not faithfully with him all the time.. in fact i think the book covers this saying that scabbers goes out at night sometimes and randomly reapears after days and ron has no idea wher ehe was" stupid useless rat is never even around" .. weak writing yes.. plot hole no..

First of all, Peter would ALWAYS show on the map as Peter, not Scabbers. In GoF, Barty Crouch shows up as Barty Crouch even when he is polyjuiced as Moody. Second, Fred and George only used the map to sneak about, not to spy on their brother. Third, Peter was hardly ever mentioned to be with Ron unless it was an important part of the book. I mean, really, who would want to sleep with a rat in their bed?

i highly doubt they paid all that much attention to who peter pettigrew was, for all they knew he was in ron's year, and they proabiliy only paid attention to teacher's names, flinches, ms. Norris's and the actually lay-out of Hogwarts

Fred and George gave the map to Harry because they thought Harry had more of a need for it than they did. It's likely that they already knew it by heart and wouldn't have given it away if they used it very often; since they memorized all the secret passageways, they probably wouldn't use it very much, let alone for the purpose of looking up on their sibling. Plus, they are hardly the parental type. I doubt they spent much time stalking Ron.

Everyone seems to think that Fred and George would KNOW who Peter Pettigrew was- but they obviously would NOT. I mean, if they had the map, they are obviously not going to know excactly who everyone is-sure, they could've saw Pettigrew's name on the map, but why would they CARE??? He'd just be another Gryffindor student, and it's not like Fred and George would know or even want to know every single person they saw on that map. Plus, they'd probably just assume that Pettigrew was in the same grade as Ron, so younger then them, and so they would never have a need to hang out with Pettigrew or meet him. Plus, why would they care about Ron's friends? If you have siblings, you know that sure, you might know who your brother's BEST friend is, but you won't know/care/remember everyone he hangs out with.

Fred and George does not know who Peter Pettigrew was in the same way we guys dont know all the names of our parent's friends when they were in high school.

Yup. Plot hole.

Well its a big school and why would they want to look in their own dormitory when they're already there; they could've just missed it

Aidditionaly, Harry did use the map in his dormitory. How could he not notice Peter Pettigrew?

Also Scabbers is not always around

Do you actually think Fred and Goerge usedthe map to "keep an ey on Ron". They used it for secret passageways and to see where the teachers were. Besides the map isn't very big. It shows ALL of the students at Hogwarts, most of the names must be very close anyway. Fred and George can't remember who Ron's friends are and who is in Gryffindor.

Quote: " I might be wrong but I think Scabbers was genuinely a rat for years and then he died and Petter Pettigrew replaced himself as 'Scabbers'. That's what I thought anyway and I thought that was explained in Book 3." Umm, no, not at all... it explains in Book 3 that Percy got Scabbers years ago and he was already missing one finger. Scabbers was always Peter Pettigrew, there was never a real rat named Scabbers. I always assumed that they either didn't care enough or use the map enough to notice. I also assumed that they used the map more for finding hidden entrances to the castle than creeping on people. Furthermore, think of how many students and teachers there are at Hogwarts (not to mention ghosts, house elves, etc) how likely do you think it would be that in that rare offchance that Fred and George decided to creep on their brother, he was by himself so they only saw two small dots? Most of the time, I'm sure he was with a few people, and they most likely wouldn't bother to read every name around him.

It's is possible that Fred and George didnt know who Peter Pettigrew was as the map refers to it's creators in their animagus form, Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs.

Who's to say they didn't know who Pettigrew was and simply thought he was a friend of Ron's? I'm sure they didn't care ALL THAT much, and seeing another name on the map that they didn't recognize probably wasn't to foreign of an experience.

wasn't Scabbers running away all the time?

I don't think J.K. the books say WHEN the twins first learned how to operate the map? That could be the answer to why they didn't notice Pettigrew when Percy still had Scabbers. Why they never noticed him around Ron? They didn't care about Ron I suppose.

Fred and George would have used the map for trouble making, not people watching. They really wouldn't care where Ron was, they would be more interested in where Filch and Mrs Norris were so they could use the secret passages. Harry noticed him because a)it was at night and he was one of the only people moving and b)it was a name that was in his head at the time.

to the comment about the number of students, it's a little bit iffy, but it's not necessary for J.K to name every single person in their year, they are simply the ones in Harry's dorm, and several y of the most common yearmates he associates with. And also, it's possible that the twins might have only had the map for even a minimum of a year before they ended up giving it to Harry. And Peter Pettigrew, by that time, was not a commonly referrred to name, so it's possible they didn't recognise it.

It was confiscated by filch before harry went there. Remember?

Umm they had even longer than Ron's time at school to have noticed Peter. You forget, Scabbers belonged to Percy previously. They had from whenever they nicked the map in their 1st year to the end of the year and all of their 2nd year to notice. And Percy was one of their favorite targets.

But there aren't thousands of students at Hogwarts. In Harry's year, there are 4 other male Gryffindor students (Ron, Neville, Dean and Seamus). That tells us that the total counts of students in a year should be about 40, and the total amount adding up to somewhere around 280. I agree, this is just a plot hole.

Seeing as there are possibly thousands of students at Hogwarts, it's easy to assume Peter Pettigrew got lost in the crowd, especially as Fred and George weren't specifically looking for him. If they did decide to check up on Ron on the map (but why bother, seeing as they could check up on him in person in the Common Room?) they would assume Peter Pettigrew was another student. Who knows the names of all the students two years below them? Harry, of course, would have noticed the name because it was on his mind, but the connection was not made to Scabbers because the rat was conveniently lost and the map conveniently confiscated for appropriate lengths of time.

Not necessarily, You can change the past if in the intended use of the time machine was not interfered or changed to begin with. Like HG Wells the Time Machine, in order of the Time machine to exist, his wife had to die, since the ONLY reason why he created it was to save her. If he had built it before she died then he could save her and change the future, because it was built not for that sole use. Although, because if she lived, the time machine would have never been built, hence the Paradox. But in this case, it wouldn't be used to change something that it wasn't created to change, therefore the change could be done. LIke in BTTF,book Marty bought, and Biff stole changed the past, So they had to go back to fix it. In Deja Vu with Denzel Washington, he went back in the past before the blast happened saved Paula Patton from being killed, and stopped hundreds of people from dying in an explosion. So since there is no specific date as to when the time turner was created or why it was created, it can be used to change the past. There are obviously more than just the one. So I am willing to bet that the sole purpose was not to Kill Tom Riddle. Therefore, he could have been killed.

The one 18 below this comment makes the perfect point. I recommend reading the short story "Wikihistory" by Desmond Warzel, it is rather illuminating (sorry, can't link directly, just google it).

The one 4 below me i think i recognise, i think its the plot of a harry potter fanfiction

Because changing something that happened to long ago is so wrong. It would change everything and it is unethical and immoral. That's just common time travel knowledge. The only reason harry and hermione went back in the third book was because they could change things yet the events still happen. Dumbledore knew this he would not of sent them back otherwise. It's very complicated sometimes. But you would never change something so long ago as voldemort being born or something.

The one below I think is fake because I have never heard of it. But I will plus it anyway for being such an amazing story.

It is used again, after the events of the last book. Voldemort is actually Harry Potter in the future. After the events of the 7 books, Harry starts to dip into some darker magic. He begins his descent into evil and decides the he has become a monster, become too similar to the evil that he had faced while still in school. In his torment, he decides to rid the world of his evil ways, and performs a miraculous feat, Voldemort's "final spell", which is essentially an extended version of the Time Turner spell. He goes back in time to attempt to kill himself as a baby, so that he will never grow up to be who he became. He is, however, unable to kill himself (for obvious reasons) and ends up just leaving a scar on Harry's face (his own). You don't think that a powerful spell cast by an extrememly powerful wizard would be able to be stopped by... a child? He attempts to kill himself as a baby, fails, and he is instantly crushed by the realization that he is actually Voldemort himself. He spins out of control and throughout the years that follow, furiously attempts to kill himself, over and over.

It Voldemort had gone back in time to kill Harry as he failed to do so in the Graveyard, then Harry would have died in the graveyard. Do you know what this means? Future Voldemort would have no MOTIVATION to go back in time to kill Harry as another Voldemort would have been there when HE was trying to kill Harry. Furthermore, they were all smashed at the end of the fifth book, and during all of Order of the Phoenix Harry was seen as an untrustworthy lunatic who would never had been allowed to apply for a time turner. Also, time turners turn back HOURS. One turn for one hour. They would have to calculate the exact number of hours to go that far back which would require some time and you might not even get it right.

Harry and Hermione did not change anything. they were free to act as agents with fore knowledge and so able to accomplish tasks that they could not do the first time around. Buckbeak did not die the first time around. Harry and pals heard the axe fall and Hagrid howl so they assumed Buckbeak was dead but when the executioner saw that Buckbeak had escaped he swung his axe into the chopping stump and Hagrid shouted in triumph. Later, Harry thought he saw his father then realised it was himself on the second time through. The time turner does not create new timelines things will happen as they have already happened. This is not because of events being predetermind just that whatever action is taken to change the events have already failed.

You shall all watch the movie '' butterfly's effect'' to see why it is not wise to try to change the past

going back that far in time has its complications, and the person to do tso has to waste 50 years of his lives even if he does manage 50 years will make him forget everything and he will just ruin the present and give far worse results and it would create a paradox he kills voldemort then how will he go back to a future without voldemort and so on....

In the third book, Hermione turns the time turner back in to McGonnagal.

Not really, as number 1 its illegal and number 2 this is a time travel issue not a JK plot hole. Even when talking about time travel generally, if anyone had done that then it obviously hadnt made a difference because voldemort was still alive. also its mentioned how dangerous it is to change time etc etc.

Because they destroyed all of them in the 5th year after they went to the ministry of magic!

In POA, there is an unresolved issue. I really do believe it was overlooked by JK, accidentally overlooked that is. The Harry and Hermione who return to the hospital wing belong to another time line, not the one they seem (as well as Dumbledore) happy to become part of as they go to join a three-hours-younger-than-them Ron. This on its own still isn't it, the two that left to go off to do their stuff, thus vacating and allowing the time-travellers back in, could themselves easily return three hours later. It is only readers' assumptions that this was dealt with, maybe that's fair enough but maybe it isn't, but it wasn't made clear in the book.

Oh & even if Dumbledore wanted to go back in time & destroy the horcruxes, he couldn't because they were all destroyed in OOTP, remember? And the couldn't kill a child saying 'OH HE'S GOIN TO BE AN EVIL WIZARD WHEN HE'S OLDER!', that'll just get them thrown in Azkaban. :)

They wouldn't have been able to kill voldemort anyway because they would have to destroy the horcruxes first & I doubt that dumbeldore knew about the horcruxes then. If he did, he would've set out to destroy them way earlier than the 6th book:)

>Spades Slick: Crowbar. Time turner. Make it happen.

They were all destroyed!?!? Why couldn't they just build more?!? Did they also destroy the "how-to-build-a-time-turner" instruction sheet?

It's because when Harry and the others went to the Ministry to "rescue" Sirius, they smashed the entire supply of time turners. There is reference made to this in the subsequent books.

Because of the simple rule of time travel that exists in all time travel books, movies, and songs that I've ever come across: You can't change the past. In fact, this is usually the main point of these time travel stories. Buckbeak wasn't 1st killed and then brought back to life. Sirius wasn't 1st kissed, then unkissed. Neither was Harry. The 2nd time that night was lived changed nothing. It showed what had happened the 1st time that readers and the 1st Harry, Ron, and Hermione had missed. It was like a story from the point of view of 2 characters, where the 1st character misses much of a story and makes assumptions. Then we see it from the 2nd characters point of view, and all is made clear. I thought this was explained when Harry realized that HE was the person who saved himself across the lake. Also when Hermione holds Harry back from stopped Wormtail from morphing- she says something like, "When we live through that moment the 1st time, no one stopped Wormtail from morphing. So we can't now. It just wouldn't work." When they experienced that night the 1st time, it was experienced the same way it was the 2nd time. Voldemort was not killed or arrested as an 11 year old. He was not taken out through a secret attack by the order before he attack the Potters. So no one could go back in history and make those events happen. Since no one had killed young voldemort, some one going back to do so would be prevented or he'd come back to life or who knows what. But it hadn't happened, so they knew that they couldn't go back and make it happen. Seeing how Dumbledore planned this use of the time turner (distracting the executioner, telling Hermione what to do, etc), I think there would have been at least a chance that the time turners would have been used in the future against Voldemort had they not been destroyed. But you'd have to plan in the past and set things up for your 2nd trip through the same time if you wanted them to work.

I would like to point out to someone who has commented previosly that Harry's magic was detected in the second because Dobby probably did it to make sure it was noticed. Third because Harry probably had extra surveillance because of the Sirius Black situation. And fifth of course because of Fudge's paranoia/ Umbridge's cruel/ ambitious desperation for promotion/ acknowledgement

well most time travel things that would have use (e.g. killing/ arresting tom riddle as a child or changing his childhood) would create a paradox where they would only end up doing it because they knew what he would become therefore if he didn't become what he did, there would be no reason to go back in time and it wouldn't be done. Also, when Harry, Ron and Hermione were "watching" Buckbeak's execution they couldn't see it clearly from their position. Dumbledore who knew of Sirius' innocence stalled the executioners with talk because he knew Hermione had the time turner and wouuld know they were smart enough to figure out the Buckbeak thing although if anyone would like to argue I would like proof from the book

Too risky, dumbledore wouldn't be that careless!

The books make it clear that using time-turners is extremely dangerous and heavily controlled by the ministry. Hermione HAD to hand it back to McGonagal at the end of her 3rd year because she no longer needed it (for any official reasons at least). Then later all the time-turners were destroyed anyway

just saying... the ministry can only detect magic being preformed not who preformed it i.e. whether the person was under age or not, this is why they expect parents to uphold this law... the reason harry was 'caught' in the 2nd, 3rd and 5th books is because he is the only wizard in the area and there for the only person likely to use magic- this is the reason they cant use magic when extracting harry from privet drive in the 7th book... this is also the reason that riddle wasnt accused of murdering his family (even though no one knew they were related-apart from dumbledore) as marvolo, an overage wizard lived within the area..

in the 5th book..it has been said that all time turners were destroyed during the fight in the DOM

Quite simply because Rowling realized that by introducing time travel in order to give the third book a novel ending she opened a Pandora's Box of "what ifs" and "why didn't theys" and had to slam it shut again. She made Hermione say that she handed her Time Turner back in and went even further to have "the Ministry's entire stock" of them destroyed and hope that the readership would forget about it. The damage, however, was done.

Easy. Hermione had to return the time turner at the end of book 3.

There is a scene in OOTP where all the time turners are destroyed. Also time travel is more complicated then you're implying.

Hermione gave the time turner back to McGonagall at the end of the third book.

It states in the series all magic used around someone who is underage is detected they just expect adult wizards to uphold th rule while in there house ... It doesnt matter he used someone else's wand to kill he's family they would have been able to tell someone underage was there and your telling me dumbledore who was keeping a close eye on Tom riddle would t have put it together when the riddle family dyed knowing voldemort was named after he's father Tom riddle

All magic used around someone underage is detected it states that in the series they just expect adult wizards to uphold the rule of no underage magic while in there house .. it would not have mattered if he used someone else's wand Harry didn't use a wand to make he's aunt blow up like a balloon but they still detected it so they would have known someone underage was atleast there and your telling me dumbledore wouldn't have put it together riddle family murdered when he was keeping a close eye on Tom riddle ...

It doenst matter if he used someone else's wand ... They can decected magic used in a wizards house with someone underage in it they just trust parents to manage it clearly states that in the book ... It was a giant over look on the book series they would Be able to tell it was someone underage who did it ... And your telling me dumbledore wouldn't have put two and two together riddle family murdered when he knew he was named after he's dad Tom riddle?

Gee, what do you think, should you go back in time two decades and then LIVE THE TIME AGAIN. I bet even Voldy would be feeling a bit tired after living 20 more years than necessary (technically, some 15 or so, but anyway)

Underaged magic can't be detected in an adult's witch or wizards house, and seeing as when voldermort attacked his uncle, he was in an adult's wizard's house, his use of underaged magic was not deteacted by the ministry. And the reason why his underaged magic was not deteacted when he killed his dad and grandparents in their muggle house was because he used his uncle's wand to kill them.

How is this even number one the biggest hole is underage magic when voldemort killed he's dad and grandparents he was in a non wizard house so why couldn't they tell a underage wizard did it? And he used all those spells on he's uncle but voldemort was underage so they would have know what spells where used and known morfin was innocent

Oh FFS guys this is really not hard. The series deals with destinies and prophecies therefore we know that this element of the plot is present. Now a time turner is obviously tied in with ones "destiny" not will. Time is in a closed loop, so when the Harry and hermione went back, they were destined to spin that time turner and do what had already happened, therefore closing the loop. If one decided to try to alter destiny then the loop would not be closed and they would Cease to exist.

This one is actually kind of easy. If you think about it, to use a time-turner, you must be standing in one particular place. When Sirius was put behind bars to be sent to Azkaban, Ron, Harry and Hermione were in the hospital. Hermione used the time turner in the hospital, which means that when time was reversed to a few hours ago, Hermione and Harry had to travel from the hospital to the rest of the places. They also had to make sure they ended up in the hospital before time caught up - otherwise they could really mess up things. Using the time turner means you have to go from the place you've used the time turner, to where you're trying to change things. Now if Harry had to go to save his parents, assume he apparates to Godric's Hollow and then uses the time turner (and that will take years i suppose). Now Harry will be the same old Harry (even age wise), but remember that during his parents' death, he's an infant. How can he kill Voldemort (or stop him from killing his parents) without being seen by anyone? And if he is seen, it is a dangerous thing in time. Also, he is changing events that are so major that they could completely mess up with time. So he'll be living in the turned time world, with his parents, with his infant form, until time finally catches up? Hello? There can't be two Harry's living amongst each other. That's why Harry and Hermione were so careful not to be seen by their past selves.

Hermione turned in her Time Turner in the third book then they were all destroyed in the fifth book at the Battle of the Department of Mysteries.

If you look up A Very Potter Sequel on Youtube by Starkidpotter then you'll see that Lucius Malfoy uses the time turner to go back in time to kill Harry. He fails. What happened happened.

All of you aren't thinking this through enough. The time turners can obviously be used to travel in time. It would not be good if you caused a paradox, like killing Voldemort early on. However, there are no restrictions on going back in time and causing something to happen later. Like, I go back in time, do something, use poison on him, then later, after I got back, he dies. Something like that could be achieved very easily. In the case of saving people who have died, that is also easy. When you know all that happened after and during the death, it should be easy to fake the death (they have MAGIC.) In both cases, there is no actual change that causes a paradox, and therefore could have no ill effects. -Gorton

In the third book Harry was saved by a patronus. It was only after the time turner was used that harry cast the patronus, indicating that time-turners negate free will, that everything to do with them is fixed, and will happen no matter what we do. hence, Voldemort couldn't be killed by one.

Time turners are dangerous. If you take a chance of going back in time, it could get you killed. Also, who says people weren't doing it? Events transpired as they did. Using time turners to go back and fix something that has occurred means that something, possibly your death took place to prevent you from changing it. Harry and Hermione did it before Sirius's fate was known. - Guy

In all of the Harry Potter books, and other books by J.K. Rowling about the wizarding world, the fact that you cannot bring the dead back to life has been reiterated over and over!!! Hermione was required to hand in the time turner- thats why they didnt use it again...and for other serious problems, well there'd be way too many things that could go wrong if the ministry intereferred.

Hermione was required to hand in the time-turner at the end of the third year, as in her fourth year she would be taking the normal amount of classes. In the fifth book, the ministry's stock of time-turners is destroyed, meaning, no time-turners, hence no time-travel. And also the Doctor decdied to appear as a snivveling Barty Crouch Jr without the Tardis.

Well, if you go to youtube and look up how Harry Potter should have ended. Snape goes back in time, using the time turner, and kills Voldemort.

Because there is a limit as to how long you can travel back (few turns will do). Plus you can only time-travel within the vicinity.

For those of you wo are say that they didn't use time-turners because the ministry's stock got destroyed. What about the other Time-Turners though, the one's that weren't in the ministry. Surley they could have used those?

YOU CANNOT CHANGE TIME. If someone dies you cannot go back in time and interfer, they are still going to die, perhaps even in a different way. Dumbledore is a lot more manipulative then people give him credit for, he needs Sirius and may as well do something nice for Hagrid and save buckbeak. Neither of them died in the 3rd book because they were always meant to save buckbeak and they went back in time (actually spinning the time turner) while Sirus was still in the holding cell, Harry was always ment to save him. The time turner is ministry Regulated and was only supposed to be used for educational purposes. They wer destroyed in the fifth book, in the fourth book they could not go to the ministry and say 'hey we need a time turner to go and stop voldemort from rising and cedric from dying' They would have said voldemort is not risen and that you cannot bring back the dead. Which you cant. And if you could a goverment could not go around giving a free pass for people to go back in time and make sure people didnt die. What if they mess up the time stream? What if they change something else? What if saving one person results in another ones death? Hermoine never changed anythng she was just in two places at once and they never changed the timeline, they were always going to save Sirus and Buckbeak

I know! They should have went back and SAVED DOBBY!!

if you mess with time, seriously bad things can happen, and there's no telling what they will be, and no matter how many times you go back, you may not be able to put things right. Plus they were all destroyed... JKR probably included this to avoid people thinking of anything like this.^^^^

the question is not "why don't harry, ron, and hermione use the time turner again," it's "why doesn't ANYONE use a time turner to solve serious problems?" stop saying "hermione had to give it back." you don't think dumbledore could have gotten another one? and i hate the idea that "people with time turners have to make sure the don't see themselves, or else they'd go crazy." if i had a time turner and saw myself, my first thought would be "hmm, i guess in a couple hours i'll use the time turner and come back to this time," not "oh my god, is that me? i'm going crazy!" and how long would it take for the future you to just explain "hey, don't worry, it's just me. i used the time turner." as long as you never went back beyond when you got the time turner, i think you'd be fine.

Yes, yes, no limitations... besides the Department of Mysteries which specifically controlled them and regulated their use. If you care to remember, Voldemort couldn't get into the Department of Mysteries until Harry broke into it. And all of the Time Turners were destroyed during the firefight that took place there.

Because somewhere it says that timeturners can only go back i time an hour or two which in most situations isn't worthwhile enough. You can't go ack and change 10 years, 1 ear, 1 month, 1 week, heck, 1 day ago. You probably cannot change 12 hours ago. You could change minor problems within the last couple hours like we all have but anyone wise and responsible will recognize that such petty things aren't work the risks of manipulating time

exactly like 2 comments back.

Why is everyone saying it was destroyed after HP5.What about the earlier time.Surely that thing was not created just for Hermione.It always existed.And if no one can bring the dead back.How Harry and Hermione were able to bring Buckbeak back from death?

Hermione has to give hers back. In the 4th book, the ministry is still in power and rigorously controls them. At the end of the fifth they get destroyed. Simple

That would create a paradox. Say, if Harry1 took a Time Turner before they were all destroyed in the 5th book, went back in time, killed Voldemort before Voldemort killed his parents, why would Harry2 go back if he had his parents and Voldemort is dead? Because he DOESN'T go back in time, the timeline reverts back to the first one, thus creating an infinite loop that oscilates back and forth between the two timelines (This is of course assuming nothing else happens and Harry doesn't, say, become his father or something). THAT IS NOT A GOOD STORY. Besides, I'm certain that Harry Potter doesn't use the "Time may be rewritten" time. If something happens, it happens, there is no stopping it, there is no going back in time to stop it, nothing. Besides, "No magic can revive the dead," were you not paying attention?

they were destroyed

Alright EVERYONE. it's obvious isn't it? Hermione was the best in her year. She wanted to take all the classes so professor mcgonagall, an extremely influential person, got her one. Also, they DID get destroyed and do you really think voldemort would have wanted to break into the ministry only to get a little thing that he'd have to turn for hours to UNDP what he did? no. He would have found it above him. Also, just ask yourself one question. In the space between when voldemort came back and when the time turners were destroyed, everyone thought voldemort was dead. Why would they go back in time to destroy him if he was dead? As for the people who knew he was back, why would they use the time turners? Would you do it? I most certainly would not.

Because all of the time-turners were destroyed in the Department of Mysteries, so Voldemort or anyone else couldn't have used one to go back in time. I'm also pretty sure Hermione got her time-turner confiscated because she used it for something other than school.

First of all how the hell would voldemort get hermione's time tuner? All the other time tuners were destroyed in the Order of the Phoenix when they were running away so that part does not make sense what you said... Harry didn't use the time tuner to kill voldemort because time travelling can be dangerous and there is certain laws... maybe if you read the books you would no some of this!!!

They didn't go back because the series would have been terrible if they had. J.K. Rowling just knows how to write a fantastic story. Duh.

Someone could have gone back in time and killed Voldermort when he was a kid!! Or his mother!!

-It's because in the third book, Harry and Hermione were ALWAYS going to go back in time to save Sirius and Buckbeak because Dumbledore came up with the plan while Sirius and Buckbeak were still alive and Dumbledore probably came up with this plan immediately after learning what happened. -Once someone is dead, you just can't bring them back through any means. -If they used the time turner to stop the ritual, Voldemort would have found another way to come to power because of his horcruxes! -Voldemort would not have been able to get his hands on a time-turner or tell anyone to get one for him, because he was so weak before the ritual and most of his followers were in Azkaban, and you saw how long it took for Voldemort to get in the Department of Ministries. Voldemort wouldn't be able to go back and not curse Harry (which by the way Voldemort never knew about marking Harry his equal so Voldemort didn't even have that advantage) because Harry was ALREADY marked his equal and you just can't go back in time and easily take back part of your soul once you put it in someone or something else.

Why does everyone always reason this with "they were destroyed at the end of book 5". What about book 4? after voldemort was revived? no excuse then. Besides messing with time of course, but 'book 5 they were destroyed' is not an excuse for not using them between book 3 and 5. Stop saying it.

Because they were all destroyed in the department of mysteries. EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM!

If I remember correctly, Hermione hands in her time-turner to Professor Mcgonigal, and she couldn't get a new one past the ending of Order of the Pheonix because they were all destroys when they battled in the Ministry of Magic.

Because you can't change when someone has died. But Sirius Black wasn't dead when Hermione used the time turner to make her and Harry go back in time. It could also be because Hermione did not have the time turner the next year. Does it say that she does have it or doesn't have it at any other point in the series?

The way the timeline works in Hp, in that is fixed, i.e. anything that happens when someone goes back in time, has already happened (thus preventing paradoxes)

You're forgetting that Hermione just wasn't some 'school girl' she was pretty much the best in their year and proved responsible enough to have one. Also, its like she said in PoA - if future Harry ran in on past Harry in Hagrids hut, past Harry could have killed future Harry thinking it was dark magic. Meddling with time is far too risky and it could change the whole future, something could have gone wrong which could have led to Voldemort succeeding in killing Harry and then risen to full power.

ahh don't give me that all time tuners were destroyed crap, if they were so rare and important they wouldn't give it to a school girl so she can take 2 extra classes , and i find it hard to believe that molfoy with all his influence would find it hard to obtain a single time tuner, there must defiantly be some left in some people homes or black goods shops, and in my opinion time travel must never have been used in harry potter, and for those guys who say past cannot be changed time travel just introduces a loop and that loop can be used to change many things in many places in series, like if they didnt go back in time sirus would have died by kiss so they went back and saved him just because we didnt see him die that day dosent mean he would have escaped if they didnt go back to save him, so the whole time travel concept is faulty.

Simply because it is not a series about time travel...

I had the same question but remember that a time turner can only go back a certain amount of hours and if someone sees you the whole future is in jeprody. Plus at the end of the Order of the Pheonix, when they broke into the ministry all the time turners were destroyed.

It could save Lily and she can marry Snape so Severus life won't be such miserable from beginning to the end. *wailing*

its dosnt matter if you go back in time whats done is done, going back wont make a differance, its a closed loop time structure, this actually makes more sense then going back in time and chaging things if it happens in the present then if you go back it will still happen

1. It is not true that they can only go back 24 hours. They can go back years, but the number of times you would need to turn one of the dang things would be very, very numerous. 2. They WERE destroyed during the Ministry Battle in OotP. 3. "Voldemort is many things, but he is not foolish." Are you serious? He is the biggest fool there ever was, making a LIVE SNAKE into a Horcrux, and also choosing to make such glorious objects/items as his Horcruxes. Had he just made Horcruxes out of paperclips and bottlecaps, the dummy might've lived past Harry Potter LOL!

I dont know why not on the fourth (it would have been too much and too soon of the time turner), but at the fifth, the time turners were destroyed when they got into the Department of Mysteries, and apparently they are hard to rebuild, or they did not have time after knowing about Voldemort reappearance.

:O Harry Potter 9 - Death Eaters use a time turner and revive voldemort? I guess JK just realised how stupid this idea was and tried to hide it after HP3.

I haven't read all of the comments here but you're forgetting the main point. You can't meddle with time! If someone died, its their destiny to die, and you mustn't save them. By saving them you could change the future and have a worse outcome. This has always bugged me how people overlooked Hermione saying you can't meddle with time.

Everyone is saying that they were destroyed, which doesn't seem a particularly legitimate answer to me. If the wizarding world can produce these things, and they are so unvaluable they're willing (even grudgingly) to give them to a schoolgirl, they must be able to make more. But I'm not just here to gripe about other answers. If it was a schoolgirl and the Time Turners were capable of dramatically altering the past, all the letters of recommendation in the world couldn't convince them. After all, Tom Riddle had them all fooled, didn't he? And who knows what those things could have meant for the future. Voldemort is many things, but he is not foolish. I think he would have been wise enough to not want to tempt the Fates, because who knew what repercussions his action could have? Perhaps, if Harry's death was not obviously at the hand of Voldemort as a more powerful wizard, people could make it out to be a cowardly thing for Voldemort to do, going back in time to kill him, too afraid to face whatever happened in the future. Maybe he would have been made into a martyr, something to make them fight even harder. And why is everyone forgetting about his mother's protection? Just because his mother isn't here now doesn't mean her protection doesn't still stand. What about in book one, when Voldemort can't even touch Harry? And all the Time Turners are in the custody of the Ministry. I can't particularly see Voldemort, or even when of his followers, waltzing in their there to grab one. How would Lucius Malfoy explain away being caught with an illegal stolen Time Turner in his pocket?

Hermoine gave back her time turner to McGonagall because the work was to much, and all the other ones were destroyed

In the 5th book, it states that all the Time Turner's were destroyed during the Battle at the Ministry, and Rowling also mentions that Time Turners are not used often, and she portrays them to be frowned upon...and not used often AT ALL

but harmione, ron, and harry are on the run from voldemort and trying to kill him. of all the people i think she WOULDNT turn over her time turner to a knowingly corrupted thing like the ministry. also if you cant change something but further it along instead then they couldnt technically save buckbeack or sirius but they did so that makes no sense. the only reason why they coudlnt do it would be because you have to re live the time u went back but even then if u just travel forward you cancel it out and voldemorts dead.

This had me thinking about plot holes in the first place. Are they telling me that Voldemort, splitter of souls, can't handle a little time meddling?

Just before similar questions like from Aaaaa are asked, Hermione says at the end of the third book (p.314): "...That Time-Turner, it was driving me mad. I've handed it in..."

You cannot use it to change the past directly. Going back in time to kill someone would be detrimental to the furture. Hermione going back to take more classes did not effect anyone. Remember in the book when Harry wanted to grab Wormtail and kill him, and Hermione said that he couldn't do that because it would change their whole future.

You can only go back 24 hours

you need to get ministry permission to use thejm and there storm of timeturners was distroyed in book5

This is a quick question, How come Hermione and Harry didn't use the time turner to go back in time to save Cedric and warn Dumbledore that TWT cup is bewitched or tell him that voldy is coming back from the "dead" in the graveyard?

you cant change something, just further it along. in PoA harry sees a Patronus he thinks is his dads but its his. If they hadnt gone back there wouldnt have been a Patronus. Its a closed loop. (sorry if thats confusing)

It's said in the 6th book I think that all the time-turners were destroyed when Harry was in the Department of Mysteries.

The following is written on the time turner: "My use and value unto you are gauged by what you have to do. I mark the hours every one nor have I yet outrun the sun." This suggests that the time turner cannot actually change anything, the user can only do what they have already done.

I think it's mainly because it'd be way too complicated to add that part in. If Harry/Voldie went back in time, they could be seen, do some dastardly deeds, creating a lot of havoc, confusion, etc., and I think the reader might be lost. -Shrugs-

*sorry about my spelling--my keyboard is having problems.

Sirius gives Harry the badly wrapped package in chapter 24 of OotP. He says it's a "way of letting me know if Snape's giving [Harry] a hard time". Harry doesn't know what it is yet but vows not to use it in order to keep Sirius from doing something foolhardy. Anyone who thinks "there wasn't enough time to use or fetch the mirror" needs to read the book again. After receiving the mirror, Harry uses Umbridge's fireplace TWICE. The first time wasn't urgent at all because he just wanted to ask Sirius about his father. If Sirius cared at all about his godson, he would have asked why he didn't use the mirror then. In fact he could have given Harry the mirror long before Christmas. If he preferred Harry be a risk-taker like James, why give him the mirror at all?! It's not even a good plot point for tragic irony, as the irony of the mirror is completely lost on Harry when he finally opens the package. Instead of realizing he could have talked to Sirius the whole time, Harry tries to contact Sirius from the dead with the mirror. Rowling and her editors should have removed it from the book entirely.

Sirius clears to harry the mirrors function if my memory serves me correctly, however harry was intent on not using it so as not to make sirius do something rash like coming up to the school, no matter how bad snape treated him and after a year he forgot it at the bottom of his trunk, besides he couldnt think reasonabally since he fainted and was really scared for his godfathers fate. And sirius liked the way harry was more adventrous like james so he may have preffered harry to break into umbidges office to speak to him rather than use the mirror and sirius guiltily hoped harry might be expelled so he would go and stay with him.

Sirius gives Harry a wrapped parcel (containing the mirror) and Harry leaves it in the bottom of his trunk and forgets about it because, lets be honest, he has a rough year, and probably wouldn't remember it. Its a good plot point because it adds tragedy, when he finally finds the mirror after Sirius dies Harry realises that if he had remembered the package to start with then its possible that not of that would have happened and Sirius might still be alive.

Sirius didn't tell Harry to use the Mirror because Rowling didn't want it to happen that way. Plot Holes happen for a reason: The author is so caught up with having things happen in the way they have planned that they disregard logic and hope their readers overlook any alternative way that things could have been handled rather than revise their own plans to take such things into account. An easy solution for this would have been if Rowling written had Sirius tell Harry to use the Mirror for any further communication later on only to have Sirius suspiciously absent (being upstairs concerned with nursing an injured Buckbeak) when Harry called again, leaving Kreacher free to take the call and succeed in his mission by lying to Harry about what Sirius was up to.

This is really just another version of the same plot hole that starches the whole series: they can do magic only when it's time to introduce a new plot device; they forget they can do magic 90% of the time. If you had those skillz you wouldn't do anything without magic. Oops, must have forgot we know how to TURN BACK TIME OR BE IN TWO PLACES AT ONCE!

Here's something everyone seems to forget on all of these plotholes. In book five, harry's only fifteen and he really doesn't have an adult to turn to for guidance. They keep disappearing on him.

He didn't have time Harry wanted to talk about James immediately then had to leave quickly when he heard someone coming

Sirius Black is in no way proper parenting material. Regardless of 'when' Harry discovered the mirror, Sirius could have easily told him about it. I don't know what was running through Lily's mind when she allowed James to select Sirius as godfather. Remus would have been much better. Too bad about that werewolf thing...

Harry didn't know about the mirror, since Sirius couldn't tell him at the station - it was too risky. Sirius could obviously tell that Harry was in a bit of a hurry and needed information. If Sirius had told Harry to use the mirror right there, Harry would have to leave Umbridge's office, go to his dorm, dig through his trunk until he found it, and THEN talked to Sirius. Harry just didn't have that kind of time. And Sirius may have been going to tell Harry, but Umbridge caught them before the coversation was over.

Harry never opened the mirror, until the end of the book. He had completely forgotten about it.

Harry didn't open the mirror until the end of the book when he was packing up his things when Sirius was dead. He had no idea that it was a two way mirror. If he did open it beforehand and contacted Sirius through it, they would never have gone to the ministry, the death eaters would never have been arrested, Sirius wouldn't have died and the Ministry would have never seen Voldemort and still thought Harry and Dumbledore were lying. And when he did contact Sirius in the fireplace Sirius had things to tell him about the Order and the outside that he probably forgot about the mirror himself. Also, Harry isn't perfect, his rash decision to use the fireplace shows a flaw in his character that many of the readers will be able to relate too.

Sirius couldn't tell him at the station because Harry had to go. And sending an owl would have been too risky. Marry forgot about the package and he eventually opened it after Sirius had died and smashed it. Because he was so angry. But because of the mirror remember that dumbledore's bother saved him from the ms toys dungeon and promised death.

No way Harry didn't know how the mirror worked. Sirius has explained it to him. Using the mirror also will not harm Sirius at all since he was comfortably staying in Grimauld Place and can use it without the need of showing himself anywhere. It's a big big plot hole.

Harry never knew it was a two way mirror until after Sirius' death. And after what was going on, I agree with a comment above that the last thing Sirius would think about is the mirror with so many things to talk about.

not a plot hole just lack of advice

You have kind have answered yourself "Harry says he just wanted to talk about his dad" Sirius missed James aswell and knew how much it meant to Harry, He probably didnt want to tell Harry to use the Mirror as a thought of insensitvity.

Sorry guys of the grammer mistakes/ typo's, there is no edit button, so I can't go back and change it (maybe because I don't have an account, as I am a guest). I just read it back, there are quite a few mistakes- e.g. serious = sirius , preent = present + repeating word at the start and end of a sentence- like 'now'= "Now you may be thinking now" it should be: 'Now you may be thinking', (removing the double now). Or= "Aside from his already menstioned mistakes he mensions" when it should be 'aside from his already menstioned mistakes,' (cutting out the "he mensions"- being a repeat). Wow, I wrote a lot and I have a english exam tomorrow ¬_¬ LOL. Explains why I wrote so much.

Spelling check= Serious= sirius (sorry for that mistake) portayed= portrayed (typo) Additional comment: Therefore, you can't blame Harry at all, he never knew what it did- all he wanted to do, was avoid using it as he never wanted sirius to get in trouble- can you see the irony now, its absolutely absurd, but in a good/ fustrating way. Now you may be thinking now, it's sirius black falut- well to an extent I agree with you, however he did have his reasons as to why he doesn't menstion it. Firstly, sirius black was in an arguement with snape. He was planning on giving the mirror to harry, before snape intruded. Out of fustration he gave harry the mirror, and said: (paraphrasing) if you ever have a problem with snape, just use this *gives the mirror, wrapped up- so harry had no clue as to what it is*. Sirius out of fustration and running out of time, proberly thought he had explained/ thought harry knew what it would do, by the way he gave it. Harry obviously, through it was something that would get sirius into further trouble, so he swore never to open it (biggest mistake , on serious half/ tiny bit on harry part.) Serious black should have given this at the begging of the year, as he wouldn't have had to do all those fireplace metting then- In the end he was stopped by umbridge from doing anymore, as he was almost caught. However, dumbledore knew of the mirror function. Finally we get down to dumblefore being at falut. Ok, as he menstioned he made a grave mistake; being smarter, than normal men, his mistakes tend to be bigger than other- paraphrased from his talk with harry. Aside from his already menstioned mistakes he mensions, his decision not to talk to harry also meant that harry could not talk about sirius black preent, which would have lead to dumbledore telling him function of the mirror. Overall, I don't think this is a unintended plot hole, it was planned by J.K Rowling. Just to add a ironic twist, to the plot.

This was quite ironic/ absurd in a sense. Harry could have comunicated with serious through the mirror, to double check if serious was there. Whats ironic, is the fact that they communicated dangerously (through the fireplace) but always had the chance to communicate safely. Harry instinctively went in a hurry to save serious through rash measures, when sirius black had given him an item which was to be used if harry was ever in trouble, but on the contrary it was the other way around. Because of that, it didn't even flash harry mind to use it- showing the mirror at the end, just added to the irony- which can be comprehended 2 books later, in the 7th book, after we understand the significance of the mirror. J.K rowling was very well aware of this fact, and she even portayed the writing at the end of the 5th book in such a significant way (read the 5th book back, you will be killing yourself over, why harry doesn't look at the darn mirror).

When Harry was being handed it he tried to resist, telling Sirus that he didn't want him to get caught; in the end he gave in to keep his uncle happy, but never planned on using it. He threw it in his trunk and forgot about it; we are told that Sirus saw James in Harry; and James and Sirus would have thought it great craic to break into a teachers office to contact someone on the outside world, and was so happy to see Harry that he would have completely forgotten about the two way mirror.

Does everyone remember everything? Harry had so many things to tell him, and so did Sirius, so is the first think that you think about a mirror? No, I didn't think so. And by the way, Harry didn't know what the mirror did, and he was kind of afraid of using it. Did you actually read the books thouroughly?

I think book 5 has the most plot holes. Sirius had a chance to tell Harry to use the mirror when he first appeared at the fireplace but he didn't. I also find it weird that the magical community hasn't so much invented a popular communication device like mobile phones while Sirius had been using a 3G mirror for years. Surely if it was possible to do that with magic then everyone else would do it instead of using owls (which is so impractical) and there's just no way to intercept a 3G mirror like that

I personally dont understand why molly would have dissaproved of the mirror, it was a safe way for harry to communicate. It seems a little dumb not to just have told harry even if he didnt open it right then and there

sirius liked recklessness, he wanted harry to be a rebel like his dad... he would have thought it an adventure to break in to umbridge's office. Also he was probably a little concern, about harry coming to talk maybe he simply forgot.

Harry didn't know about the mirror until after Sirius died. athough i think that sirius should have told him to open the present, but harry didn't want to open it once he got it bec. he thought that whatever it was was going to expose sirius to the public. sirius told him it was something to use when he needed him (harry thought it would bring sirius to him.) that is the way i understood it.

-Oh cool! My godson broke into that fat frog's office just to use the floo! I'm so prou- oh wait, he wants to talk about his father (serious moment). As for Harry not using the mirror: he thought that it get sirius in trouble, so he stuffed in his trunk and promptly forgot about it. Even if he wasn't stressed out he wouldn't have even think about it.

For an attention-starved orphan with an easy ticket to ranting through a mirror that could safely communicate with his godfather. I think it was weak writing and characterization on Harry's part. He should have jumped at every opportunity to get to know Sirius.

he didn't open the package until after Sirius died :(

Harry was panicking. He thought Sirius was dead. How would the mirror have worked then? -_-

I don't know why Sirius didn't remind him, maybe just weak thinking on Sirius's part, but when Harry fell asleep during the HIstory of Magic examination, I thought that it was Harry's default thinking...he usually is this rash, so it would be likely of him to forget the mirror. But I dont know why Sirius didn't tell him. :/

This was one of the most retarded parts in that book.

that always made me so mad, that he didnt just look at the mirror. oh well.

I might be wrong, but I don't think that Harry ever opened the package that the mirror was in until after sirius died. But yeah, if Harry used it after seeing Voldemort torturing sirius, sirius wouldn't have died.

Could he have thought Harry had broken it and decided not to mention it?

Not only was using the TriWizard tournament totally unnecessary to get a little bit of Harry's Blood or transport him to the cemetery, but the TriWizard tournament itself is totally unnecessary. Why is a school encouraging teenagers to fight dragons, or encouraging them to volunteer to allow mermaids to try and drown them in a lake? What kind of school is Hogwarts, anyway?! They don't seem interesting in protecting kids very much. All the adults there seems like psychopaths for allowing this death trap tradition to continue.

Also, why didn't they just make it a single-use Portkey? Why give him the opportunity to escape, when most Portkeys are only active one-way? Because plot device and lackluster writing.

Dude you realize that the potion needs to brew and an alibi was needed

As someone else rightly said, Moody: Harry, pass me that book would you? Harry: OK (grabs hold of book and is transported) What am I doing here? (Grabs portkey and is transported back What really happened- (Diggory and Potter grab portkey at the same time) "Hey, maybe this is part of the trial, let's stay and see what happens!" That's not even a 'plot hole' anyway. It doesn't leave an error in the storyline so that point shouldn't even be there.

If Crouch Jr. needed to modify an existing portkey, really how hard was it to find one, modify it, and bring it to Hogwarts? If it would have made a boring story without the tournament, then Rowling should have revised her poor writing to get around this plot hole. If Voldermort wanted to return without arising suspicion, then sending Crouch disguised as Moody to Dumbledore's school for a year is just as risky. Not only that, but after Voldermort returns to full strength, he activates the dark mark which summons his death eaters, which definitely would have aroused suspicion since that would alert Snape and Karkaroff of his return one of whom might alert Dumbledore.

First off, Voldemort had plenty a times to "just kill" Harry, but when he had the chances he never took them. He wanted to do more than to "just kill him" I guess you can say he had a sort of sentimental value in him. Also, Harry probably would not have died in the trials in the first place because Crouch made it so Harry would win. Plus going along with the Goblet of Fire, if Crouch gave him the cup, then everyone would know it was him. He was trying to get away with it without anyone knowing it was him. (which didn't work out anyway) but it was the whole point. Voldemort and his Death Eaters always have an elaborate plans and want to follow them through till the end.

voldemort wanted harry dead but he didnt want people to know hes back yet, so dying from a triwizard tournament task is far more rational than suddenly dissapearing or dying or found dead at voldemorts fathers grave.

okay guys obviously Voldemort is a psychopath who has a faulty sense of grandeur. He could have clearly done that but remember everything Voldemort does has to have a "special" meaning to him. For example Voldemort could have easily picked a random spoon to put his soul into, but he picked something of high value. its the same with defeating Harry. he wanted it to be special because he was the boy who lived and defeated him.

Crouch wanted to continue to be at Hogwarts. It would have been obvious otherwise. Also, Voldemort told him to. Voldemort is not the most rational person in the world.

Excuse me, but what is so bad about 12year olds?! I'm 12 and am reading the HP books for the 4th time!!!!!!!!!!!!

Very true. Moody had Harry's trust (having joined the legion of would-be Harry-Father-Figures). Even if Apparition and Portkeys don't (normally) work within Hogwarts grounds, it wouldn't have been difficult for Moody to get Harry off-grounds. Forbidden Forest and Hogsmeade are close by. A basic ploy to get Harry into either of these areas would be infinitely simpler than the magic needed to infiltrate and pervert the Triwizard Tournament.

I agree that this 1 is pathetic. Dumbledore talks to Harry about this specifically. He says that Voldemort was trying to act in secret so no one knew he was back. Not gonna work with an authorized portkey made a Hogwarts, and Harry , last seen entering crouch's office, suddenly not showing up to Herbology class and dinner where he's expected.

by making it in the center of the maze, where no one could see, it created doubt as to whether or not harry actually went anywhere. in the 5th book, there are people who believe him and people who don't, which is what happened in the first "war". The good guys didn't want to believe that voldemort was back. If they made it a random object, there is more of a chance that someone would see him disappear, and therefore have more reason to believe that something was wrong

He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named needed HP's blood. I agree with some of your "plot holes" but this one is just pathetic.

Because if that happened the Goblet of fire would be a picture book that looks pathetic on your Harry Potter bookshelf. Its not a plot hole, just sometimes fans need to give JKR some slack. I mean; it makes for a better story. This is a plot gap (simply absent from story) not a plot hole (a istake surrounded by correct info)

Everyone would've realized Harry was missing had he done it like that. Then they would've caught Crouch, interrogated him, and sent help to Harry. It would've been way too obvious.

the only reason i can think of that you might want to modify an existing portkey is to trick someone into going somewhere they don't want to go to, so if the ministry of magic regulate portkeys, why don't they stop people doing that

Portkeys are regulated by the Ministry of Magic, so Crouch Jr had to modify the existing one and ensure that Harry got to it first. It would've been very suspicious if the Ministry got word of an illegal Portkey being created inside the school.

Hey Voldemort wanted to resurrect himself during the summer equinox so that the ritual would be more powerful.

It was meant as a method to resurrect (or whatever you want to call it) Voldemort and to kill Harry without anyone becoming suspicious. There is a good chance that they intended to dump Harry's body back into the middle of the maze and hope everyone just thought "Crap, this thing really is deadly..." It was clearly stated by several people that no one was meant to know that Voldemort was returning. Harry being murdered MIGHT have sort of poked at that....

Seriously, Voldemort was still in that creepy baby body being toted around by wormtail. Would you want to sic dumbledore on your evil butt risk 13 years of rebuilding your body and soul when you could easily disguise it in a school tournament. Voldemort was still trying to be sneaky, and Harry was never supposed to survive to reveal Voldy was back. Seriously, voldemort only got his body back AFTER he captured Harry and used his blood in that voldy stew. If anything had gone wrong with that (seeing as wormtail was in charge of many of the potion preparations) Voldmort would want to have a back up plan. ie. nabbing Harry while he was hidden in the maze, and any injuries could be easily explained away through the tournament. No plothole

Maybe you cant make portkeys in Hogwarts, like you cant apparate in Hogwarts (except Dumbledore of course), and the cup was some sort of exception because it was supposed to bring you out of the maze instead of to the graveyard? Thats the only thing I can think of, and his death could be blamed on one of the creatures in the maze

Because then it would have been pretty obvious, voldemort wanted to return without anybody knowing. if crouch had sent him to voldemort out right they would have caught him and gotten the truth, but this way a monster might have eaten him in the maze

Because then there would be no fourth book. It'd go: 'Hey, Harry, drink this, would you? From one dark-wizard chaser to another (potential) one...' OH **** IT'S VOLDEMORT! And Harry would be dead, having no dying boy to divert attention from himself. And the series would have ended.

Well the school was having the triwizard tournament anyway and Harry had to be on it because the whole book is about him and it just makes it more exciting that he survives all this and in the the cup is a portkey

Crouch Jr. never intended for anyone to find out that he was posing as Mad-Eye.

OR MAYBE YOU COULD ALL REALIZE THAT NO ONE KNEW THAT CROUCH JR. WAS REALLY MAD-EYE AND THAT HE SHOWS EXAMPLES OF BEING ABLE TO SECLUDE STUDENTS. I.E. NEVILLE AFTER SHOWING THE CLASS THE UNFORGIVABLE CURSES. Seriously it would not have been hard at all to "give harry detention" and make him write lines with a portkey quill or asked about him becoming an Auror??!?!?! COME ON PEOPLE. Are there only 12 year olds on here? Seriously? So many retarded comments....

You are forgetting that Dumbledore watches Harry 24/7. Need I say more? Seriously, I thought this page would make sense. All the things posted here are merely questions of people who didn't understand the series and didn't bother searching for canon answers. If you will be considerate enough to do the latter, you will actually find that JK has sensible answers to every HP question asked of her.

it would look much les suspicious

Yeah, JKR COULD have made the portkey some random object, like a book or something, but it would have made the GoF an amazingly stupid book, ruined the whole series, and whate would happen when some random kid decides they're really thirsty and a cup is right there, or that book on the shelf looks really interesting? All these loop holes are very stupid loop holes, and if you looked a little closer very easily explain. And some of the answers to these plot holes ate merely there because if JKR hadn't included them the stories would turn out completly different.

Crouch: hey Harry pass me that book Harry: okay *gets transported to graveyard* oh no, I'm in a random creepy graveyard for no reason. I should go back using the book portkey. That is what would have happened if Crouch hadn't put Harry in the TWT. As opposed to: Harry: look Cedric the triwizard cup! Let's grab it! *gets transported to creepy graveyard* wow, must be an extra part of the trial, let's stay and see what happens!

yeah i always saw this as Voldermort adding drama and intrigue to his return, setting harry up as a hero before murdering would make Voldermort look even more powerful than he was. when the plan in the cemetary failed he decided to tread more carefully afterwards and delay his public return

To the comment below, if it had ended just like that, people would start to wonder, where's the adventure, the drama, the thick spines!? Anyway it would be a VERY poor way to end The Goblet of Fire, not to mention, that it doesn't sound like J. K. Rowling AT ALL.

This is one of the things that bothered me about the whole series. Why go through all the trouble of getting Harry into the tournament, turning the cup into a teleporter, and helping Harry win the tournament? Why not just have Barty turn some other object into a teleporter (let's say a book), put it somewhere in his office, call Harry to his office, and casually say "Btw, can you pass me that book over there"? This made the whole plot of GOF pretty idiotic and unnecessary. And lol at the retards saying "Voldie's return was supposed to be a secret". WTF are you talking about? There would have been like a zillion ways of keeping it secret without going through all the trouble they went, like using the plan I just suggested >_> Added 1 year ago by guest Not even sorry this is a year later, but, Sorry - You think that you can do better than J.K Rowling? Good work, bro. YOU write a book, then tell someone else how to write. Good job, sport.

Some of the comments above are quite frustrating. Harry's not stupid and would not just be like 'oh yeah I'm dying for a cuppa' and take hold of a cup. Also, I agree with the comments saying that portkeys don't work in and out of Hogwarts unless Dumbledore authorises/creates them (he does this in OoP and apparates in HBP) therefore mad eye asking for a port key would set alarm bells ringing. Voldemort didn't want to have his return made public, therefore organising his return in the final and most deadly challenge of the TWT would be perfect- as it was already said that people died in the tournament. People would put both Harry and Cedrics deaths down to the horrors of the maze. And Voldemort thinks highly of himself- he'd want the death of Harry to be a momentous event in a graveyard with all his followers- not in a shed with wormtail there or anything.

Harry couldn't have died in the tasks because Barty Crouch Jr. made it so, he was helping him even when Harry didn't suspect! Secondly the reason that Harry had to go through the TWT could be that Voldemort needed time to contact his death eaters and start forming the little of his army again! Another reason Barty Crouch Jr. didn't just give Harry a portkey was, he possibly didn't want to blow his cover! besides if he had given Harry a random portkey and would have made Harry disappear, then everyone would know, and Dumbledore and the OOTP would be on alert! it had to be done discreetly and was to look like an accident! Voldemort's plan was to not notify the ministry of his return, which worked beautifully, just as he had planned!

PERHAPS the enchantments that dont allow anyone to apparate/disapparate from the castle ALSO dont allow anyone to use a portkey. And some of the enchantments were lifted on the maze, for some reason or another...

Voldemort was very materialistic. Obviously he would not make a paper cup or a tee bag a horcrux unlike at the triwizard tournament. Those port keys were ment to be hidden and things juggles wouldn't want.

Most people seem to forget that "Mad-eye" is already going to be the likely suspect because Dumbledore sent him to check on the cup. When someone suddenly disappears you always look at the last person to interact with them or interact with the means of their disappearance.

This was the biggest plot hole for me in the series. The entire 4th book seemed irrelevant because Crouch could have sent Harry to Voldemort in the first 100 pages. The entire drama of the Triwizard tournament was exciting reading but then when we saw why Harry was in it, it made no sense. In fact going through with the whole show ran the risk of so many things upsetting Voldemort's plans as Harry could have been easily killed or seriously injured in any of the tasks, rendering Voldemort's return indefinitely postponed.

Voldemort planned on returning Harry's corpse to the arena, making it look like Harry had died in the competition; no one would then have ever discovered him or Crouch Jr. The point was for Harry to be isolated in a deadly environment, get whisked away by the portkey for a few minutes, and get sent back dead.

People are saying the TWC was supposed to be a portkey to the beginning of the maze. I don't remember this being mentioned. I remembered Harry being really surprised by the fact it was a poertkey before he knew where it was taking him. I don't remember anyone saying it was supposed to be a portkey at all.

First of all LOL!!! "Hey Harry take a drink out of this giant cup" honestly though it does confuse me. I mean the whole thing with GoF is really interesting, so I guess it was just to make for a good story. But seriously, you could like make some object a portkey, have Harry touch it whilst in Moody's office and be like, "what, no I didn't see Harry!" and by the time people got around to thinking "hmmmm what happened to Harry?" voldys already killed him. I mean honestly the school won't go into a panic about Harry being missing for like an hour which is plenty of time for him to get killed. I mean if Crouch can manage to trick the GoF, which is some powerful Magic, surely he can get around the whole "no apparating in the castle" thing

A portkey can only go off at a specific designated time, and needs to be approved by the Ministry, which I presume would take a while. How can Moody-Crouch be sure when he establishes it that Harry will be in the exact right place when it is set to leave? He can't know that he'll have Harry in his office, alone, at that moment. One could argue that when Harry touches the Triwizard's Cup it left at his touch, but Moody was manipulating that task, wasn't he? Who's to say he couldn't ensure that Harry would have grasped it by the time it was about to leave? Moody-Crouch had been working up to this moment for a good deal of his life. I doubt there's any other possibility he could have overlooked. And anyway, wouldn't that idea have appealed to Voldemort--valiant Potter, the Triwizard champion, suddenly being flung to his death.

Dumbledore is the only person who has the ability to create a portkey within Hogwarts. I suspect only the headmaster has the ability but they never mentioned any other headmasters doing so. Also they did mention that Dumbledore had "Moody" place the cup because he was trusted, so he must have granted Moody access to make the portkey. Also when Hogwarts students visit Hogsmead there are extra protections placed, yes people are allowed to disaperate there but I doubt Harry didn't have aurors following him or friends of Dumbledore whenever he was there.

Like Moody/Crouch said, he could make it look like an accident if Harry died in the Tri-Wizard Tournament, because people have before. If Moody/Crouch handed Harry a Port-Key, it would have been more obvious someone was trying to kill Harry Potter. Ya know how Fleur was being pushed under the hedges during the maze? It would have taken them MONTHS to find her under there, and she would have been dead. It was so easy for Moody/Crouch to make it look like Harry died in the TWT, but on a regular day at school...not so much.

Voldemort wanted to show the world that there was nothing special about Harry, that Harry didn't have extra-ordinary powers that enabled the downfall of him; if Harry had have been taken easily such as you's have said about the office, etc.. Voldemort would have killed him on the spot. He also had to have an exact time for his plan to go right, he had to make sure that nothing went wrong, the triwizard tournment enabled Barty Crouch Jr to enter Hogwarts posing as Mad Eye, but why go to that bother with out putting Harry through a few near death experiences, making Harry fear each day as it came; use some empathy and think like Voldemort, he would obviously want Harry to suffer for what he had done to him.

Maybe the potion that Voldemort used to return to his body needed several months to be ready or something, and so it coincided with the end of the Tournament. Like Felix Felicis takes 6 months to be ready etc.

harry would win because fake moody would make it so. Harry would need to disappear in a way that doesn't connect him to barty crouch jr., a task that did not work but...

Another hole: why does the portkey go back to Hogwarts just as Harry grabs it?

he would have to get approval from the MoM and they would be suspicious of moody using a port key at hogwarts

^3 The comment three above is pristine but to add my opinion i think ^ lord V's under lining fear that harry is more powerful went into the planing so the use of the TWT was also to exhaust harry physicality and psychologically so their could be chance of his victory.

Portkeys are able to work In hogwarts

Also if harry touches a book, discovers it being a portkey and ending up at a graveyard he probably would be a little suspicious and maybe touch it again to go back. Whilst in the book he thought it was a part of the tournament at first.

The above comment is the most correct. The other explanations are part of it too though. Although it is impossible to make a portkey in Hogwarts (unless you are Dumbledore), there may have been other ways of getting Harry to Voldemort, like getting him while he was in Hogsmead and then disapperating. However, I think the factors like keeping his return secret, making Harry's death look like an accident, and Voldemort needing to use Harry only after he was fully prepared to transform- all make the Triwizard Cup the best plan to get Harry out of Hogwarts. Basically, this is not a plot hole, it just requires thinking.

Apparition is blocked in Hogwarts - portkeys likely are too, for the most part. When they were worried about Sirius Black getting in, no one seemed concerned about him using a portkey, so it likely isn't possible. An exception was made for the Triwizard Cup, which was obviously supposed to return the winner to the maze entrance. It was likely much easier for Barty Crouch to tweak this portkey which was already geared to work at Hogwarts, than it would have been for him to create a new portkey and circumvent those protections.

Harry's death needed to happen without anyone realising that he had been murdered. How else would you abduct and kill Harry Potter without it raising suspicion?

Well, i wouldn't like that part if it isn't like THAT, get it? There could be so much easier ways to bring Harry to the graveyard where Voldy waits, but that portkey thing transports Harry to the graveyard is 'more dramatic'!! I love JK's creativity.

Wormtail was busy preparing Voldy for the transformation! They couldnt have Harry arriving too early now could they?

yes like the comment above, voldemort wanted everyone to think that harry died in the TWT. Dumbledore would get really suspicious so he will investigate and find out if harry just disappeared suddenly. and the last thing voldemort want is dumbledore finding out about his return. this plus voldemort's love for grandeur. think about how he would feel the satisfaction when he successfully put together this grand scheme of him which enabled his return to power.

I know there are other ways it could have been a secret, but it would have been easier to find out who Harry had been with, when he was last seen etc. The fact that they did it in the maze meant that everybody would know that Harry disappeared in there, but there could have been a number of reasons and nobody would have known where he went (except Crouch, obviously).

This is one of the things that bothered me about the whole series. Why go through all the trouble of getting Harry into the tournament, turning the cup into a teleporter, and helping Harry win the tournament? Why not just have Barty turn some other object into a teleporter (let's say a book), put it somewhere in his office, call Harry to his office, and casually say "Btw, can you pass me that book over there"? This made the whole plot of GOF pretty idiotic and unnecessary. And lol at the retards saying "Voldie's return was supposed to be a secret". WTF are you talking about? There would have been like a zillion ways of keeping it secret without going through all the trouble they went, like using the plan I just suggested >_>

well one, i think harry would be VERY suspicious of a giant cup (but i see your point) and two, Moody (crouch) recommended quidditch to harry, which led to accio, and Moody impiriused Krum who got rid of fleur and himself. Harry saved Cedric twice, so Cedric could have been gone too. Cedric could have been a problem though. and something could have gone horribly wrong in the lake task, and i don't know how moody (crouch) would have prevented that.

No one was supposed to know about Voldemort returning, so there would be no resistance.

Well with all the big crowd around the maze it would be handy for the Death Eaters to go to Hogwarts via the cup and torture the nearby crowds.

It had to seem to be an accident. No one other than death eaters were supposed to know about Voldemorts return.

Perhaps it was the grandeur of Harry being in the TWT... Voldemort does love things of high significance and power.

It's mentioned that if one takes the Felix Felicis in excess, it is toxic and has side effects such as excess giddiness and recklessness. It's also mentioned that the potion is amazingly complex and takes six months to make. And then it's most likely that a lot of the ingredients wouldn't be in the student's cupboard, so there would be quite a bit of stealing from Snape's private stores, and he would probably notice the missing ingredients, given that he noticed when small amounts disappeared (in CoS and GoF).

Slughorn said that if you use it too much or too often it becomes dangerous.

What did Slughorn do with the rest of the cauldron full of Felix?

It is a dangerous and probably illegal substance. Why would the magical world sell it and let the public use it when it makes the drinker completely lucky and practically unbeatable? Anyone could then use it to do crazy **** like kill the minister, rob houses, cheat in gambling, or whatever - but I don't think the ministry - or any government - would want a load of unbeatable people running round.

Slughorn clearly explains in his class that you cannot drink it regularly as it is highly toxic and has other negative side effects. Also about the other "plot hole" that he wouldn't have had time to make it in time for his class, I believe he had it from before. As we know Slughorn does not have a desire to become famous himself but rather prefers to show off with his "trophies". Therefor a potion like felix would not tempt him as a luck potion but rather as another trophy for him to show and award as he also states that it is extremely hard to make.

I think te bigger part of this plot-hole is at immediately at the beginning of the class. Harry is pcked up at the Dursley's and recruited Slughorn. OK, a fortnight, is what 14 days. Does that allow enough time to make Felix Felicis, veritaserum or Polyjuice poton for their first class? And where is Slughorn keeping these potions while they stew? Both veritaserum and polyjuice potion need to go thru a full-moon's cycle. And I think I remember somewhere that Felix Felicis takes months to prepare. So how is it that Slughorn had thse potions ready for their first class??

To the person who said it's psychological, I don't think so. Maybe you're mixing that up with when Harry made Ron think he drank it. A placebo type effect. To the person(s) saying Harry made the vial, no. He won it in his first potions class with Slughorn. To the person who said making the potion only yields a small amount (given what Harry won), that's also wrong. There was an entire cauldron full in that classroom. Slughorn only gave enough for 12 hours' luck on purpose - because FF is toxic in high amounts and he didn't want whoever won it to abuse it's magical properties. This whole note isn't a pothole. None of the main characters had the time or, in all cases but Hermione, skill to make it. And I doubt the potion is sold in Hogsmede, and even if it was, the school was being monitored that year to prevent potions and other objects vein brought into the school. They most likely couldn't have gotten hold of it around Hogwarts even if they had thought to buy it.

you can't take lots of felix felicis because it's toxic in large quantities, slughorn says so in his potion class

Would you want to drink a ton of milk? The effects wear off reasonably quickly and if it takes a long amount of time to make the small amount Slughorn does it would take much too long and a lot of work to do it.

It's a matter of pride and a lack of necessity, I believe. Why would Voldemort need it when he thinks he is invincible? Dumbledore has no occasion to take it, which day would he need it on? He can't just take it every day. Snape also has this problem. He probably could make it, but it would take him a long time and he is not rich enough to buy it. Bellatrix is too proud and confident to suspect she will need it. She is also insane.

Okay, first of all, Harry never made liquid luck, he won it...which is clear in both the movie and book, so I don't know where that idea even came from. slughorn says its "desperately tricky to make, and disasterous should you get it wrong." I would also assume that it only makes a small amount once its finished (hence the small vial given to harry) so, six months to make one small vial, probably lots of stealing from Snape's store cupboard, and the risk of getting it wrong and taking it (who knows what would happen? look at hermione when she took the polyjuice with the wrong hair...). Seems like it is just really impractical. Plus the side effects already mentioned...

Well, it's stated in the book that drinking too much of it can lead to bad side effects (mentioned below) and they would have gotten too cocky and risky in their behaviors. But it also takes six months to make, showing it's extremely complex. The directions on how to make it probably aren't even in the potions text book. Why would they book a recipe that is that complex in a sixth year potions student's book? And even if they did, do you think Harry could of made it? He's really not that great at potions... Maybe Hermione, but she probably has other things that she has to do in the upcoming six months. I doubt any of them would have been able to dedicate a full half year to make the potion, which they would probably have made wrong. And if they were to just buy it, it would have been so expensive. The selling and purchasing of luck is probably illegal anyways.

It's "bottled luck" so it can only really help you do something you would be capable of already. The complexity of the potion probably means that only a very, very rare few amount of wizards or witches in the world could even make it, coupled with the amount of time it would take to make, and also that it's not allowed to be used in competitive events. There really wouldn't be a lot of profit in anyone making large quantities of the stuff, and ingredients aren't free.

Look, although Sluggo says that it helps you succeed in all endeavours, I'm pretty sure he was talking about winning a Quidditch game, or finding a book, or passing an exam- not killing people. It's not that strong that it can turn you into a full blown master or magic :P

It was mentioned somewhere that it had some pretty nasty side effects on the long run, as well as causing dependence to it. You wouldn't be able to use it more than 2-3 times "safely" imo. A good idea would be to keep some around at all times just in case but there can be a thousand reasons why no one actually does this

Because JK Rowling had a very weird but wonderful ending, and it was very hard to make sure that Harry got back to Hogwarts. Maybe if they killed Harry, Voldemort would get inside Hogwarts via the Portkey? It's not like he wanted to close the death eater's way into Hogwarts!

So that when harry was killed, they could send him back to hogwarts so he does not just disappear. This whole triwizard tournament was important because its a cover up for harry dying. It would be suspicious if harry just disappeared. The tournament meant that if harry died in it, it would not be suspicious because people die in the tournament and no one would question it. Voldemort epididymis not want anyone to know he was alive yet so the tournament allows him to kill harry with it being suspicious. It's actually very smart you just need to think about it it's so obvious

The book isn't specific as to what Voldemort's plan was after he regained his body. The only thing he intended to do after he regained his body was to kill Harry in front of the Death Eaters so they would never doubt who is the better wizard. Remember, Voldemort wanted no one but his death eaters to know that he came back. He probably ordered Crouch Jr. to make it a 2-way portkey so Voldemort could transport Harry's body back to the maze. In that way, the everyone would have assumed Harry died trying to battle an obstacle in the maze. If it was just a one-way portkey, Harry's body would just disappear, probably causing a huge investigation and it might eventually lead to the discovering of the rebirth of Voldemort.

i think the portkeys are a semi-programmable object because of the way they were discarded in GoF after they used the old boot. and the way they were set to go at a specific time is to prevent arrival collisions when a large number of portkeys are used to travel to the same destination from multiple points of departure. As when there is only one being used, it is much more adaptable to "programming" it to act a certain way.

The cup was originally a portkey for the winner to be taken to the front of the maze, to the audience. Becuase they won, so when they touch the cup, the game is over. BUT, crouch made the portkey take a detour - to the graveyard where voldemore was waiting and blah, you know the rest. So once harry was already there, and everything happened, and cedric died, and so when he touched the portkey again - it took him back where it was originally supposed to go - the front of the maze.

Voldemort didn't intend people to know he was back just yet, but he needed harrys blood and wanted harry dead as soon as possible because since he knows the prophecy, he can't wait for harry to grow more in magic, secondly the portkey was intended to bring the winner back to the front hence why nobody was surprised on how suddenly they got there, so it was made to take them to the graveyard and when harry dies it would make it look like he died by accident while touching the cup, anyways this is just my theory ;P

In addition to what the others said, what about the potion itself? It may have taken that long to prepare it? Its known that some potions have to stew for at least a month, and you would think it would need quite some time for one as powerful as this. Also Voldemort didn't want to bring attention to himself immediately.

There is no comment in any of the other books that portkeys don't do 'return journeys'. For all we know, all portkey's act like this, and take you back to your original location once 're-touched'. And Moody didn't just send him off to Voldemort at the beginning of the book, because he had to stay at Hogwarts for the year (presumably do abit of spying on Dumbledore, and Voldemort doesn't return until the night of the third task, what would be the point of Moody sending Harry, before he was actually back?

because it was meant to take the winner to the entrance of the maze to be praised, a new spell was put on it to take the winner (harry) to the graveyard. but what i don't understand is why Cedric didn't get teleported to the entrance when he poked and kicked at it when they got to the graveyard>

Here is my thought: The cup could've been portkey before Crouch put another portkey thing on it. Perhaps Crouch's portkey wore off after being used once. Then the Orginal portkey started to work yet again. The original portkey couldve taken the person back to be declared the winner?

I think Crouch Jr. could only work one part of the already designed portkey- that was to take anyone who touches it to the Graveyard. What happened afterwards was what the original portkey was designed for-ie., taking the first person to touch it back to the grounds to declare the winner!

If they used a touch activated portkey to get to quidditch thing, then either everyone would have to grab it at the same time, or only one person at a time could use it. Touch activated portkeys are designed for one person

crouch jr. was intending for the plan not to fail and after voldemort was revived with harry's death they would then insta-port to hogwarts and kill everyone. that would have been game over had the events transpired as such.

It worked two ways because It had two portkey spells cast on it.. 1. the original TWT key to send them back the the entrance. 2. the key that 'Moody' aka crouch casts on it which I imagine became the primary key as it's been place over the original so when that key was used it got removed making the TWT key become the primary key again as it wasn't activated.

The original function of the Triwizard cup is to transport the winner to the front of the maze in this particular Tournament. I'm sure that it's main function couldn't be completely over ridden. Or maybe the portkey was allowed to return them back to the front of the maze because say Voldemort did killed Harry in the Graveyard, I think the first place he would go to flaunt would be to Hogwarts. He would want to show Dumbledore that he had done what he planned to do when Harry was a baby. So the portkey had a detour added and there you go.

explanation below only would make sence if it didnt have one flaw as well.. then how is it placed there, if no one can touch it without it transporting htem, the firs tperson to touch it, how do they put it on a table.. ect. bull its a plothole >>>>>>>. This is just my speculation: The Triwizard Cup was always meant to be a Portkey that transported the winner to the front of the maze. Maybe Moody was unable to remove this spell when he added a detour location to the Portkey and/or the spell for the return trip was convenient because it allowed Voldemort to make it seem that Harry died in the maze, perhaps in a deadly duel for the Cup. As for why not a timed Portkey: different spells for different uses. For the World Cup timed is better as it allows a large group to grab on to it before the spell activates and helps on the organisation front at the campsite. For the Cup, having it activate the moment it is touched for the first time helps to clearly mark out the winner

For the most part, portkeys and other magical transportation devices are closely watched and regulated by the Ministry of Magic. It's a very complex spell that not all witches and wizards can do.

well sence u cannot apperate diretly into Hogwarts and the vanishing closet didnt work at the time, the portkey was the only way voldemort and his followers would have easily been able to gain control over Hogwarts once harry had died, that being the plan, and it took him back to the frount of the maze so Voldemort and them didnt have to worry about finding there way out of the maze and through the challanges that lay inside the maze. Because, if u rember, the plan was not for harry to make it out of there alive.

in DH they used a timed portkey incase someone did die on the way. if the portkey went off for whoever touched it first, and someone died on the trip, there could have been a random portkey laying around for a death eater to touch and appear at the burrow without any trouble.

Also, in GoF, after the death eater attack, the MoM would be hard-pressed to organize thousands of portkeyes in a few hours, so they might have used old ones that brought the ticket holders there to take them back

This is just my speculation: The Triwizard Cup was always meant to be a Portkey that transported the winner to the front of the maze. Maybe Moody was unable to remove this spell when he added a detour location to the Portkey and/or the spell for the return trip was convenient because it allowed Voldemort to make it seem that Harry died in the maze, perhaps in a deadly duel for the Cup. As for why not a timed Portkey: different spells for different uses. For the World Cup timed is better as it allows a large group to grab on to it before the spell activates and helps on the organisation front at the campsite. For the Cup, having it activate the moment it is touched for the first time helps to clearly mark out the winner.

Voldemort thought he would definitely be able to kill Harry! He always thought he was the strongest person, and definitely stronger than a 14 year old

My theory on this is that Voldemort was intending to kill Harry right then and there. He didn't expect the twin core effect to occur and cause the disaster it did. I imagine that he wished to kill Harry there, then use the port key with the Death Eaters, and make his grand return in front of the majority of the wizard world there. Since his one true danger would be dead, and all 7 pieces of his soul intact (7 to his knowledge) and kept safe in the horcruxs, he would have nothing to fear, and since most of the wizards in Harry Potter kind of lose their balls at the very mention of his name, he would have no opposition and be able to take his throne. Seriously dude, do you have to have EVERYTHING explained to you? Use creative thinking when you read. Most of these "plot holes" on this list are ridiculously off, and I assume that most of them were written by people who either only saw the movies, or read the books very badly.

When Voldemort and Harry’s wands connected, shadows of Voldemort’s last victims came out. They all obviously knew what was going on and Harry’s parents were the ones who told him to go back to the cup. Right when they said that, the cup lit up again. It is assumed that they, somehow, turned the cup into a reverse portkey.

to the second comment, they didn't use "touch portkey" at the beginning of DH, probably because the two people would have to touch it exactly at the same time, plus having "timed" portkeys meant they knew if something had gone wrong and who was missing or hurt.

They didn't want to use timed portkeys because there would be a bigger chance of the death eaters being able to access them and take them to Order headquarters.

If you used touch portkeys too often, that could be really dangerous. A muggle could be walking around, step on some litter, and be flung into the Quidditch World Cup. I'm seeing some problems with that.

I don't know about why the Order didn't use this method, but Crouch Jr. made it work two ways in order to send Harry's body back. It would look as though Harry died in an accident along with Cedric.

they should make voice activated ones. like, "i am remus lupin and i am going to the burrow with george weasley!"

^yeah in GoF they used "timed" portkeys, but why did they used "timed" portkeys in the beginning of DH? Some of the groups missed their portkey, which was a huge inconvenience. Why couldn't they use "touch" portkeys then?

Not sure about the first question, but for the second, the portkeys would go at a specific time so that the right people catch the portkey. What if a muggle had touched the key first and ended up in the middle of the quidditch world cup?

Because J.K. was extremely upset at Dumbledore at the time. Who knows. They could have just emptied the basin without drinking it I assume, but nope!

to the comment below me, this is dark magic we are on about, its like saying why didn't dumbledore use dragons blood/another creatures blood to enter

what I don't get is why they didn't just fill the cup with potion, then dump it on the ground, fill it up, dump it, etc. Why drink it?

Am I the only one who thinks this is so far fetched: a horcrux - in a potion filled basin - on an island - in a huge cave - with a lake filled with dead people - that you can only get into by bleeding all over the rocks and swimming down a long tunnel - risking hypothermia? This hiding place is SO complicated compared to the others: the shack that any hobo could have squatted in; Gringots was not theft proof; and Hogwarts. The diadem didn't even have a curse, because Harry picked it up when he hid the potions book. Just wondering if it bothered anyone else?

Regulus probably had a suicide wish, a) because he had done bad things and wanted to repent in death, and/or b) he didn't want to run the risk of Voldemort finding out what he had done and torturing him. Also, I believe that only house elves can apparate in non-apparation zones (like Hogwarts), and Regulus probably would have died if Kreacher had taken him along. Maybe he actually wanted a chance to survive. As for dumping the potion on the floor, I'm sure the "barrier" prevented the drinker from emptying the shell anywhere other than in a mouth, and the same barrier would prevent someone from lifting the locket out of the potion with the shell. JK Rowling could have dedicated more time to "hmm, let's try this instead. no? OK let's try THIS instead" scenarios, but it would have made for a dull read. The planning? Dumbledore only knew where the Horcrux was, not how it was protected. Nice try, this isn't really a plothole.

or maybe, why couldn't they have scooped the potion out, an dumped it on the cave floor? Or used the cup to scoop out the locket?

Well, this isn't a plot hole at all, not in any way whatsoever. Dumbledore couldn't have anticipated the potion. And he's not perfect- maybe it didn't occur to Dumbledore to tell Harry what to do should he go crazy due to the potion as his thoughts were focused on acquiring the horcrux. As for why they didn't bring something to destroy the locket with, they clearly planned on bringing it back to Hogwarts with them.

dumbledore didn't really care about what would happen to him, as he was about to die anyway. he also trusted Harry much, which may have been foolish, but it was his reason.

This is just to answer the question: "The bigger plot-hole is: why didn't Regulus just allow himself to be apparated out of the cave alongside his house elf?". Regulas Black was a death-eater that had turned against Voldemort in the end. His last actions were the only proof of this. Had he returned and fought against the Dark Lord, it would have brought shame to his mother, who had already disowned Sirius. By dying in the cave and never revealing his last wishes to stop Voldemort, he in turn was protecting his family. Also, most of the big adventures in the HP books aren't well planned out....

Dumbledore does.not tell people everything they need to know. Harry didn't need to know Dumbledore no doubt wanted Harry to figure it out, or most likely Hermione. He knew he was going to die anywa, the potion effects didn't matter. Considering Regulus was a Death Eater he could have thought it obvious that he was going to.die.considering how kreacher was. He only returned because he master ordered him to. And house-elves are.bound by their masters orders

I must admit, this is the first question that I cannot easily answer - a legit plot hole. And an applause for the person who posted the phrase "stoned on voldy juice".

i think that Dimbledore knew where it was, knew it had to do with Voldemort which = bad, and knew that he didn't have much time left, in fact merely hours so he decided to wing it. as for Regulas he knew where it was cause he followed Voldemort and was starting to not like what Voldemort was doing, so he decided to stop it best he could, and knew he was proabiliy going to die so he took Kreacher with him and decided to wing it the rest of the way

RAB was a Death Eater, unlike Dumbledore, so he would be allowed much more inside information. Plus, it was Regulas that loaned Kreacher for the mission. Not only would Regulas know that Voldemort had Horcuxes, but Kreacher would be able to inform him how to get through the cave/get the locket/etc. Dumbledore and Harry did not have this inside knowledge. In the end, it did not come down to RAB being a better wizard than Dumbledore--he was just much more prepared, and had a house elf that had already experienced the journey once before. The bigger plot-hole is: why didn't Regulus just allow himself to be apparated out of the cave alongside his house elf?

well for starters dumbledore didn't need the sword to destroy horcruxs because he did destroy the ring. Plus if he was paralyzed he need to drink the whole thing and it would fade. As for the regulus part, he was to weak at thr time and Kreacher was only a house elf he didn't know what it was!!

Did Dumbledore bring Godric Gryffindor's sword, after all he was planning to DESTROY the Horcrux, not just find it. Why didn't Regulus or Kreacher try and find out how to destroy it?

Well Dumbledore knew that it wouldn't be inaccessible because voldemort might want to retrieve it. Also he said he trusted harry to do what was right, even if it meant leaving him to die. Also, dumbledore did leave clues on how to destroy the horcrux even if he didnt tell harry outright. Last, when Kreacher helped voldemort but in the horcrux, he knew what would happen, and told regulus about it when he was called back.

he needed snape to kill him anyway for the whole elder wand thing to work out, so he figured he might as well be the one to get stoned on voldy juice in the process.

After harry survived, a witch or wizard found Harry, kept him safe, sent word to Dumbledore, Minstry or whoever. Then Sirius took Harry because he was Harry's godfather. Then Sirius gave Harry to Hagrid to take to Dumbledore. Hagrid waited until it was dark to fly the motorbike to Surrey.

Voldemort kills Harry late at night on October 31, almost midnight. As to why nobody in the neighborhood would've noticed the house being blown to pieces...it was still under the Fidelius Charm, meaning it was invisible to those who aren't mean to see it. Anywho, Dumbledore is the first to find out about the attack since he cast the Fidelius Charm and would know if it was broken. He informed Sirius and Snape, who both go to the house. Sirius pisses Snape off to the point that Snape leaves, and shortly after, Hagrid arrives on Dumbledore's orders. I don't think it's wrong to assume that Dumbledore would trust Hagrid with the mission. At this point it's probably around dawn. Hagrid takes care of Harry until the next night, when he brings Harry to Dumbledore on Privet Drive.

Sirius came shortly afterwards to collect harry. (in the movie Snape came, and then sirius) so harry wasn't left alone. sirius gave harry to hagrid, who took care of him while dumbledore decided what to do with him.

I believe Severus Snape was there first. And Sirius most likely came a little later when ge checked on Peter and noticed him missing. Dumbledore was most likely aware someone was there, he is the almighty Dumbledore after all. Hagrid got Harry, most likely, after Severus left, seeing as e only mentioned Sirius being there.

well thjere was a case in russia that a 3 month girl lied under a rubble of 5 floor building after an earthquakle in Russian WINTER for 3 DAYS and survided, so the last statement isn't so miraculous

harry was definitely being watched by sirius. hagrid said sirius was there when he went to the house to get harry, he even lent him his bike.

Rowling said once in an interview she just messed up with time. She never figured out the time gap between Godric's Hollow attack and the night that Harry was left on the Durselys' doormat. By the way he didn't stay all that time in the house, he was with Hagrid somewhere. If you really have to explian it I'd say Hagrid made a few detours just to leave behind any possible Death Eater.

There are neighboring wizards and witches he could have stayed with for half a day. Godric's Hollow was full of them.

Just a thought. Wormtail was the Secret Keeper for James, Lily, and Harry. Harry couldn't be found by anyone who didn't already know where he was. Maybe it just took Sirius a little longer to hear of the Potter's demise (it certainly took him time to confront Wormtail about it), and then retrieved Harry from the wreckage and allowed Hagrid to bring him to Dumbledore as he was ordered to do. I might be totally wrong but that's just my first thought.

This is a bit of a reach. I guess you added this 1 because you needed an even 10 plot holes? A 1 year old could survive much, much longer without water or food, especially a well cared for one like Harry who had been fed and watered every day of his life. Considering Hagrid's ineptitude with magic, we can assume that Harry was not healed by him. As there is no mention of injuries to Harry, we can assume that he was, well, not injured. So could an uninjured, startled, confused 1 year old trapped in his crib have survived less than a day without food or water? Of course. But that's beside the point because I'm not sure what you read that shows you Harry was just picked up, either time Hagrid tells the story (This is the only reference to when Hagrid found Harry: he took right before the muggles began to swarm. If a house down the street from you blew up in the night, do you think you'd wait until evening to go check it out? We know from book 7 that it was a well populated street. It's very unlikely then that muggles did not swarm as soon as the first neighbor shouted out. Not only does the writing leave plenty of doubt about Hagrid grabbing Harry just before flying to Privet drive, it leaves little doubt about Hagrid grabbing Harry soon after the attack. To go beyond what the book actually says: do you think deatheaters hearing of Harry's survival wouldn't have done anything they could to kill or capture Harry immediately? Dumbledore, or any member of the order for that matter, wouldn't have left Harry there for protection of the wizarding world if not for humane reasons. Hagrid makes it clear also that he was acting on Dubledore's orders to a T. Dumbledore seemed to anticipate, and maybe even slightly understand Harry's scar when we see him see it for the 1st time. I have no trouble trusting that Dumbledore told Hagrid to take Harry right to him with no stops and that Hagrid trusted that.

Seriously saying Snape was there first? Are you guys stupid or not real fans. That was added in the movie. In the book Sirius was there before Hagrid, perhaps he had Harry. Does anyone even know how far Godrics Hollow is from surrey? Hmm? Its most likly far. As someone pointed out he was using a flying motorcycle, perhaps he.didn't even leave till night.

He wasn't there for a day, In the book he's picked up mere minutes afterwards by Hagrid, because Dumbledore cast the fiddelius(spelt Wrong I'm sure) charm so he was alerted once it had broken. So he could set things into action

remember, Hagrid is travelling by flying motor bike. at no point in the story does the author indicate how far Godric's Hollow is from Surrey. It is completely feasible that it took Hagrid all day to reach the residence of the Dursley's.

how would every one know Harry surivived if no one had gone to the potter house and seen him there alive? Heck, BATHILDA BAGSHOT probably heard the commotion and retrieved Harry. some people need everything spelled out directly infront of them... honestly

Honestly, with any hope that Lily fed Harry just before he died, perhaps Hagrid just did basic first aid magic spells to get rid of any cuts/bruises and Harry was okay. Kids have survived longer without decent food, with diseases, etc. so Harry surviving just a little longer shouldn't have been extremely hard. Also, how have the rest of you commenters missed the comment on being a super wizard ghost? OP, I seriously pity your intelligence. Or I respect your troll skills, whichever comes first.

In the books (I believe it was in Prisoner of Azkaban) Hagrid said he saw Sirius at the Potter's house and Sirius gave him the bike so he could take Harry. Who knows how long Sirius had been at Godric's Hollow before Hagrid turned up. Plus he wouldn't have just automatically flown to the Dursleys, he would have had to contact Dumbledore so they could arrange what should have happened to Harry. Also there is nothing to suggest that Harry wasn't taken to St Mungos during that day.

Hey did anyone consider the possibility that it isn't smart to drive a flying bike during any daylight hour in the muggle world? If you ask me, Snape took Harry, notified someone, most likely Dumbledore, and brought Harry to a safe place. If you remember correctly, Sirius is in Askaban at this time, so he couldn't have been with Sirius. The Order did have Sirius' house, though. Hagrid must have borrowed the bike after instructions from Dumbledore. Common sense said he drove late on the bike under the cover of night so he wouldn't attract too much attention.

Snape is the first one to get to Godric's Hollow just after Lily and James were killed. Harry was probably alone for a few hours at the most, the length of a nap. Seeing as how Snape was a death eater at the time he knew when Voldemort went to kill them. Or their dark marks signaled that Voldemort was gone just like they signaled when he returned. Feeling something was wrong Snape was there probably within the hour finding James, then Lily and Harry.

It would have taken Hagrid a while to safely get Harry there. Plus, he was on a flying motorbike, how often would a muggle see that? Hagrid would have waited with Harry somewhere until it got darker. As for the fire, Snape went to the house shortly after Lily and James death to see Lily, he would have stopped the fires.

I think the main thing to consider here is, it's Hagrid. How often has he messed things up. It was a hectic day. I'm sure he was the first one to get to Harry, and the one to drop him off, so it's easy for him to say, just brought him here straight from godrics hollow. He was talking to muggles. Is he really going to go into details about how he waited out for message from Dumbledore and there was some debate about where to bring him and trouble with owls that day because of so much owl traffic [or w/e the fictional hold up was.] No. He's going to give the muggles the main message, which is he was the one who picked up Harry directly, and as soon as he got word from Dumbledore took the journey via motorbike to the Dursleys.

This is the definition of 'reading too much into something'. Why doesn't someone ask JK Rowling the only person who can accurately respond?

Harry was being taken care of, either by Sirius or Hagrid, or McGonagall or Dumbledore himself.

If you remember, Hagrid got the bike from Sirius Black. It is quite likely that Sirius Black was looking after Harry, and also mourning the lost of his best friend, but when Hagrid arrived, gave both baby and bike to him so he could take him to the Durselys.

Can't figure out this plot hole because it only bears a semblance to English.

Yes they were celebrating during the day and yes harry was dropped off at night. They dont say when people found out or how. They knew Lily and James were dead and Harry had survived. Snape had to have told Dumbledore and he took Harry and had Hagrid bring him to the dursleys, the safest way a baby could be transported by magical means. You can only drive so fast with a sleeping infant. And I imagine one would drive considerably faster if being chased by death eaters. Hagrid could take his sweet time bringing baby Harry to Privet Drive, wizards were out in day light celebrating, they obviously didnt think any death eaters would be about.

One main theme in this series is how remarkable it was that Harry survived that day. If you read the books or watched the movies, you should know by now that Lily, Harry's mother, was the reason Harry was not killed by Voldemort as a baby. The only counter-spell to the killing curse is sacrificial protection, which Lily provided. If you read the series and understood it, then you shouldn't be confused as to why Harry is not a "super wizard ghost".

It says in the books that Hagrid got him as soon as it happened. He traveled on that Flying motorbike so he had to of taken more than 15 hours to drive to Surrey. Dumbledore had more than likely arranged a port key to get him there when it happened.

So many people commenting on speed, how many of you have ever traveled with a baby? I doubt it's many, here in the states it's actually illegal to take a child on a plane under the age of 6 months because it can be deeply damaging to a baby due to the air pressure exerted on an imperfect skull. Children under the age of 2 aren't supposed to be allowed to sit in a car longer then two hours at a time due to the massive ill effects it can have on their bone structure. I'm going to make it clear, if you think slow, careful travel with a baby doesn't make sense, you aren't fit to carry a child.

You wouldn't apperate with a baby they could get splinched which is why most wizards don't appaerate. Did you even read the books.

Babies cannot apparate. Apparating is not like using a portkey. Sirius' motorbike was probably the quickest and safest way to transport baby Harry. With regards to the journey taking such a long time: Lord Voldemort and the Death Eaters were universally feared in the wizarding world, and baby Harry (and baby Neville) were being hunted. Perhaps they waited to travel with Harry to ensure that the Dark Lord had in fact disappeared and it wasn't just a trap to lull them into a false sense of security.

duuudes, just accept it: Its a plot hole! Nobody is perfect, although JK damn near is!

Nowhere is it said Harry was left alone for hours. Snape was there soon after lily and james died. He could have easily stayed until hagrid or some other friend of the family got there. Also, Hagrid had to find Sirus borrow his bike get harry meet Dumbledore

It would take Hagrid almost a day to fly carefully and slowly with a little baby, and they would probably have to stop for food and rest along the way. And, also, "Hagrid doesn't Travel By Magic" isn't a plot hole. It was actually done on purpose, to have some connection to Sirius (it was Sirius' motorbike). It would probably be too dangerous to Apparate with a baby, anyway.

Didn't Snape go into the house where Lily died, almost right after it happened?

Your terrible grammar made me die a little inside.

i don't think your taking into account how long it would take for hagrid to travel to and from godrics hollow...it could have, for all we know, taken that long. Also, Hagrid was taking the baby right to Dumbledore and McGonagall, who are both pretty awesome wizards and might have been able to help him if something had gone wrong. The fact that Harry didn't die in the first place and wasn't unconcious is probably a sign that his health was fine, too.

"Hagrid doesn't travel by magic." is another plot hole. Would you send an untrained wizard who does not apparate to retrieve a baby from a dangerous situation? You can explain it by saying he happen to be on his way to visit the Potters and showed up barely after the house was blown up. He got Harry out and maybe made a call to Dumbledore using whatever wizards do to communicate and was told to bring him to Privet Drive. The distance still bother me England is not that big an island especially when flying. Paris to Heathrow is 30 minutes at worse. You spent more time checking in and checking out than flying. Say the flying motorbike only travel at a quarter the speed of the average airliner you still be able to join any two points in England in less than two hours.

Yet the flying motorbike was used again and it was fast enough to almost outrun death eater on broom. Did JK ever made a map of her magical world?

Hagrid doesn't travel by magic. It would take time for him to get from place to place. I'm not sure how he got to Godric's Hollow but I know he took the motorbike to get to the Dursley's, seems like a long bike ride.

No, dumbledore said that it was too risky too have him taken anyWhere after the event. The place was quarantined, and in a later book there was a debate over the scare being cursed. You have to read the entire series! Did u ever think that the news of what had happened had ot reached the wizarding people until morning and that serious and hagrid and dumbledore had been with Harry all day at the potter house trying to make sense of everything?

Hermione "obliviated" both Rowle and Dolohoff in the cafe, and later Xenophilius Lovegood. Yet they all get their memories back. Within a few pages Voldy is grilling R and D. Obviously "obliviate" is not a permanent wipe.

Did anyone read the book??? It clearly says that Hermione 'modified' her parents memory. I guess the Memory charm and Memory Modifying Charm must be different!!!!

Maybe she used a potion on her parents as she would have had more time (setting up a story etc) but memory charms are quicker and possibly less detailed

Don't think she had already mentioned that, she may have wanted to avoid saying it before then?

Hermione wouldn't want to just erase two peoples memory that had probably only worked for Voldemort to protect their families as if they didn't Voldemort would kill them and their families so she lied to the boys to evade doing the spell because if they thought Hermione couldn't do it they would not ask her.

I think she was just trying not to think about her parents.

Indeed, there is a big difference between a Memory Modification Charm and a Memory ERASING Charm. She modified her paren't memories, she did not use Obliviate as Emma Watson did in the movie. That was a movie mistake. Obliviate completely wipes the memories and cannot be brought back. The memory modification just alters their memories, not erasing them. Therefore, she'd done a modification charm, so she was correct in saying she'd never done a memory ERASING charm. Hollywood screwed it up.

There is a difference between a Memory Charm and a Memory Modification. In Chamber of Secrets Gilderoy Lockheart stated that a Memory Charm, which he was so gifted at, erased a person's memory. In Prisoner of Azkaban Cornelius Fudge mentioned that Harry's Aunt Marge had had her "memory modified" and that she would have "no memory of the event." Memory Modifications either hides, changes, or alters the information that's already in a person's mind whereas a Memory Charm attempts to destroy it. Hermione used Memory Modifacations on her parents, she didn't erase them, which is precisely what Harry asked her to do to the two Death Eaters in Deathly Hallows.

Maybe a muggles mind is easier to cast memory charms on then a wizard/witches 'complex' and gifted mind.

i believe this is just a mistake that JK wanted to mollify by saying they are two different spells. This of course is just my opinion, but I believe a spell to make someone completely lose their memory would be easier to preform. A spell to actually twist the users memory would be more complex because you would need to know how to change it to your specifications.

ok but if hermione still used a memory charm that waas different,,, only erasing her out of their min dthen how did she find them when she was travelling hmmm that woul dbe impossible in australia especially.. good point

Jo said that the memory charm she used on her parents was different because it was some sort of mind wipe as it didn't just get rid of their memories it got rid of every influence of her in their lives.

I noticed this in the book and I (being a complete Potterhead) choose to think that they were differant spells.

If i remember correctly, she never told the boys what she had done until after the wedding, but i may be mistaken. But anyway, probably did not want the boys to feel guilty for her having to give up her family, or maybe its the fact that guilt would compel them to try and send her back, to get it all fixed again..?

V It may be the official answer, but that sounds like splitting hairs to cover a "whoopsie" to me.

False Memory Charm =/= Memory Charm. The scriptwriters for the movie, for whatever reason, decided that a False Memory Charm has the same incantation; however, JKR has said that they're two different spells.

Hermione modified her parents memories she didn't obliviate them. Acording to JKR (I know someone who wrote her) they are different.

Hermione never performed a Memory charm. She modified her parent's memories. They are two completely different things. A memory charm erases the memories that the caster chooses. When you Modify a memory, all you are doing is altering certain aspects of the memory. Also, she wouldn't have confunded them, because all that does is confuse the opponent momentarily.

she never did wipe her parent memory's because if she did she wouldn't have been able to find them again in Australia would she? there memory's would have been gone forever like professor Lockhart's was

hermione had performed a memory charm before, however, this was a complete memory wipe. you said that it must've been a powerful memory charm, but it was simply making them forget she was there, not know she existed. all the things she did, everywhere she went, they were simply forgotten

In the movie, Hermione used a memory charm on her parents, when in the book it doesn't confirm which spell Hermione used- it just says that she made them think that they didn't have a daughter, they had completely different names and wanted to go to Australia. That would take a completely different spell than just simply wiping the Death Eaters memory.

She confunded her parents to the point they though they were someone else, she hadn't used a memory charm before in the book. The movie used the wrong wording (obliviate).

Hermione a complected memory charm on her parents, she modified their memories to make them believe that they didn't even have a daughter! It wasn't a simple Obliviate! However in the movie that charm shown is Obliviate and thus the scene where she says she hasn't used it before has been left out!

She never used a memory charm on her parents, she just changed their memories

I was thinking about that one, and I'm glad someone mentioned it! It was bothering me...

Yeah, if she confunded her parents or something similar, that would not be a memory charm.

JK Rowling answered this. Changing someone's memory to make them think they are someone else is a different spell than completely wiping someone's memory. And no, Hermione did not make the death eater think he was someone else, she just wiped his memory.

^WTF are you talking about? making someone totally forget who they are sounds alot harder than just a basic memory wipe. In fact, Hermione probably did make the death eater think he was someone else, so he wouldn't be a threat anymore.

Actually, Hermione hasn't done a memory charm until she did it on the Death Eater. What she did on her parents wasn't a memory charm, because she didn't wipe their memories. She just made her parents think they were different people. They are two completely different things.

it's possible that hermione intended to say she never performed a memory charm on a wizard before (seeing as both her parents are muggles). maybe muggle minds are easier to alter

I don't get this either. Plot hole by JKR's faulty writing. This *cannot* be explained, unless Hermione forgot she used a complex memory charm to send her parents to Australia just days earlier. -__- unlikely

JK Rowling has said that Pettigrew went to the Potter's house and found and kept Voldemort's wand somewhere safe, probably in hopes of being rewarded or doing powerful things. He later got it back for Voldemort.

I think that either Wormtail took it right after the Potter's death, or that he snuck back in his animagus form after finding what's left of Voldemort in Albania and brought it to him....

Peter held it for safekeeping

No longer a plot hole, it was but JKR answered it. "Upon his curse rebounding upon himself, Voldemort's wand was blasted from his body and landed not far away from his body in the ruin of the Potter home. After Rubeus Hagrid rescued the infant Harry from the wreckage of the house later that evening, Peter Pettigrew returned to the house and discovered the Dark Lord's wand in the wreckage[1], taking it with him as he fled the scene in order to prevent the wand from falling into the Ministry's hands and possibly exposing him as a traitor since all wands have a record of the spells they have cast and can be examined by those trained to do so. He would keep this wand in an undisclosed location for twelve long years afterwards, until the time when he could locate its true owner once again" Source: harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Tom_Riddle%27s_wand

From the Harry Potter Wiki and sourced from JKR, Pettigrew returned to the Potter house that evening after Hagrid left with baby Harry, found the wand hidden amongst the rubble, and took it with him so as to prevent the Ministry from finding it and discovering his treachery. Peter hid the wand in an undisclosed location before Sirius tracked him down and confronted him.

for anyone who tried to make the argument of Voldemort simply using another person's wand; you're forgetting the priori incantatum effect of the wands locking. It is specifically stated that this is the result of the brother cores of Harry's and Voldemort's wands.

snape was still working as a double agent at the time, he would have been one of the first to enter the house, and he would have been the one who knew about voldemorts plans to kill the potters, as he told dumbledore before it had happened. unfortunately they trusted the wrong person. obviously it wasn't mentioned in the novels, however my guess would be that snape took it shortly after finding the potters dead. just a guess

in the film it shows snape showing up to find lily's body - he could have taken the wand

1. His body DID very much go poof. He said he was ripped from his body. If he had been able to carry and/or use a wand, he would not have needed pettigrew to help him so much. If he could still do magic when dead, what is the point of being alive even. 2. Snape would not have returned the wand b/c SPOILER... he was a good guy 3. Voldemort never mentioned followers being with him in his memory. 4. Pettigrew has been covered. 5. It was either Dennis Kucinich or this is a plot hole

Is it specified in the book that his wand survived the attempted killing of Harry? Couldn't it have been destroyed with him, and he stole a wand from somebody else when he returned?

1. Anyone who spells his name "VoldeRmort" should not be commenting about the intricacies of Potter. 2. Movie canon *is* J.K. Rowling approved; she is the one who wrote in the scene in the first movie where it is shown that Voldemort travelled ALONE to the Potter's house. And because movie canon is JKR approved additional canon to the books, that means that Snape was one of the first to arrive to the Potter house to find James and Lily dead (as per DH Part 2). Also to correct another mistake from some other comment, OBVIOUSLY Snape also knew that the Potters were going to be targeted. 3. We can assume it wasn't Snape who took Voldemort's wand, though--no connection. 4. In one of the books it did say that the curse rebounded upon Voldemort but didn't say exactly the state he was left in. Whether it was that gaseous form or a very weak body (because by then he had already made Horcruxes). Though his body was not at the Potter's, that doesn't mean it just went *poof*.

Peter had all the time in the world to fetch the wand. If you look at it, it does not say how long the Potters were dead before the officials arrived.

I havent read the book (dont kill me) but in movie 7:2 Snape is seen crying and holding Lily potter after her death. He could have picked it up and given it to him 14 years later or possibly just given it to wormtail...

The accio spell doesn't work on most objects of importance throughout the series. If it did dumbledore could've disarmed voldemort from the world over cuz he is effin dumbledore. Poor reasoning.

^wormtail didn't have a wand but I see your point. He could have just used another's wand and summoned it or maybe he doesn't need a wand to summon stuff cuz he's effing Voldemort.

Accio Wand. Duh. He'd have to use wormtails wand but so what?

ok.....so dobby's evil brother we will call him steve. Follows Voldy to the Potter house. Then after Tom Riddle turns to dust on the floor steals away the wand and puts it on Ebay (registered trademark) it sells to Dennis Kucinich for a large sum who hopes to protect himself from the imminent threat of alien invaders. when the aliens dont come he lists it on Craigs List and sells it to lucious molfoys younger brother Frank. Well Frank does not know what to do with it so he chucks it int the bin where peter petigrew living as a rat snatches it up and hides it next to the goul in rons attic. then after seeing that sirrus escaped from azkaban grabs it in his maw and lugs it around until he finds voldy...just as likely as the rest of you guys...no that's not what happened . there is no explanation. period

to the post of .......Voldemort could have travelled to the house with an entourage of Death Eaters. Lucius Malfoy among them, quite likely. Just because the house was destroyed and Voldemort "killed" doesn't mean the rest of the Death Eaters would have been. One of them could have easily grabbed the wand before any Ministry person showed up. Why? Save it for Voldemort, or just as a relic.......not possible the book covers this when harry is attacked by nagini in godrics hollow. Voldy relives the night and with no mention of his followers. clearly a plot hole

Who ever thought of this plot hole is a mad genius and is a brilliant person I to was wondering about this. U deserve a award for this... I want to marry Harry potter lol

there is no answer, every one who thinks there is an answer you are all idiots!

Not a plot hole: Voldemort could have travelled to the house with an entourage of Death Eaters. Lucius Malfoy among them, quite likely. Just because the house was destroyed and Voldemort "killed" doesn't mean the rest of the Death Eaters would have been. One of them could have easily grabbed the wand before any Ministry person showed up. Why? Save it for Voldemort, or just as a relic. ~PA

I believe that Wormtail got Voldemort's wand and used it instead of his own. Wormtails wand was left when he faked his own death and while some wizards do not need a wand, Pettigrew needed his. I believe the wand works on the same principle of their clothes re-appearing even though they left them behind when they transformed. After turning back into a human they are always dressed even though they lost their clothes when they turned into their respected animal.

Additional comment, to the one I posed above (can't exceed 2000 characters): When Sirius tracked down pettigrew, he may have killed the 13 muggles with his own wand or voldermorts (note that pettigrew didn't meet voldermort till the end of Harry's 3rd grade- about 12-13 years after voldermort mysterious disappearance). If pettirgrew didn't retrieve the wand for his master (Voldermort) when Sirius had tracked him down, then he would have done so straight afterwards and then hidden it, as I'm sure, he wouldn't have guessed Voldermort was really dead (this was probably on the very same day he died, or a few days after)- however, I'm sure he thought Voldermort was dead later on, thus deciding to reside in a wizarding house (the weeselys). But I'm sure, throughout this ordeal, he knew were voldermort wand was hidden. The ministry of magic aurors must have checked out the scene of the crime (Voldermort dissapearance) much later, as they would have been wary to approach it- anywhere between this time, Pettigrew would have surely retrieved his Voldermort's want from the Potters house. -Akz645 Since I don't have an account, I'll be stating my gamer Initials now, lol.

Out of all of these suggestions, I believe I have the answer: My answer is going to be based off the wiki answers (just about how sirius got into prison), which I had replied on (so I'm not plagiarizing). For you to understand, I will be going through a brief reminder as to how sirius went to prison insead of pettigrew. Sirius Black was sent to Azkaban because when Lily and James were going into hiding they decided on Sirius as their secret keeper however they changed at the last moment without telling anybody, including Dumbledore. Peter then betrayed Lily and James on the same night that Sirius decided to go check on him and after discovering Peter was gone he went straight to the Potter's house, which was of course destroyed. (At this point he gave Hagrid the motorbike telling him he wouldn't need it again, Hagrid then used it to deliver Harry to his aunt and uncle's). Sirius knew he would be blamed but he managed to track down Peter and he yelled out to the whole street (full of muggles) what Peter had done. Peter then cut off his finger, blasted the street apart killing thirteen muggles and turned into a rat making it look like Sirius had killed all the muggles as well as betrayed the Potter's. Dumbledore himself gave evidence that Sirius was the Potter's secret keeper.

I suppose he could have possessed some animal and hid it somewhere in the village himself. Assuming he figured out that he could do this within hours of it happening to him.

Not all of Voldemort's followers abandoned him after he disappeared - the Lestranges were not imprisoned until they tortured the Longbottoms, as they believed they may had information on Voldemort's whereabouts. It is unlikely Voldemort didn't tell any of the death eaters where he was going, since this was such a big event. It is likely he had some nearby, and after discovering he had been torn from his body, it was likely one retrieved the wand and kept it safe, in case of his return. The Lestranges could have easily placed it in one of the other death eater's possession, for example the Malfoys, who avoided prison time by saying that had been imperiused, ready to be returned should he ever arise.

Impossible to explain this is. The biggest plothole and the thing is, if JKR must cover this she has to rewrite the whole set of the novel

^ /agreed. No remotely believable solution exists for this.

^quirrel would of been the first person he could have gotten to do it for him, and that makes NO sense, b/c someone would have found it by then... wasn't dumbledore himself investigating voldemort's entire life, the ministry, hagrid, ANYONE! Secondly, peter doesn't make sense either, as sirius chased him down, and he didn't even have HIS OWN WAND after those years as scabbers. why in the h would you think he had voldy's wand. Obvious plot hole.

voldemort got his wand by making quirel get it or another previous victim that fell across his path

^Wrong, a rat...

Pettigrew is an Animagus that can turn in to a mouse. He could've easily sneaked in.

Pretty gaping plot hole considering the wand's importance to the plot. The ministry finding it and holding it for protection could have made sense and Voldy could have stolen it back later, but instead Peter "magically" (spoken ironically) has it after spending over a decade as a rat. Pretty obvious on the first read even. J.K. must have realized this one and ignored it

^ No, it isn't. DH clearly states that theFfidelius charm is broken, due to the death of those who it was cast upon. Direct evidence is that many people were able to see the house and write on the sign, even though we may safely assume that Peter Pettigrew didn't tell the entire Wizarding World where the house was.

The house is still under Fidelius.

Pettigrew might have gone back and collected it right away, once he heard that Voldemort had been destroyed. He was the only one, other than Voldemort himself, who knew that Harry Potter was being targeted that night; he may even have been hiding out nearby in his rat disguise, and actually witnessed the event, then went in to see what had happened. Finding Harry alive and Voldemort gone, he picked up his former master's wand in trembling fingers, hardly daring to believe what had happened... and then disapperated in a panic when other wizards began to arrive. It's not in the books, but it COULD have happened.

The Potter house was memorialized, so it's entirely possible that it was somehow missed. Pettigrew is the only means by which it could have been retrieved. It stands to reason that had the Ministry found it, it would have been destroyed or taken for protection by the Ministry. On that note, Ministry seems to do some shoddy work when it comes to investigations. Just sayin'

good point, i don't know...

It specifically said that harry was closing his eyes when Cedric died, and therefore didn't see it. But what about his parents? Didn't he see them die???

Jk Rowling explained this one, he was still in shock and had not fully processed what he had seen.

I agree with HARRY NEVER SAW CEDRIC DIE. good god, some of these are ridiculously easy to answer.

I don't think he can remember his parents death because he was so young, so it doesn't count for the thestrals

hello, it clearlt states he saw his PARENTS die. so he shoud have been ble to see them since FIRST YEAR.

I'm gonna throw this out there as far as death "sinking in" goes. My dad died when I was fourteen. Within the week after he died we had the funeral and yada yada. Three months later it occurred to me - and it was like being hit with a brick - that he was never coming back. Up until then it felt like he had been on a long business trip. I know a lot of people who have felt the same way. That it takes weeks or months to really, fully understand that someone is never EVER coming back. For it to SINK IN. Perhaps the same happened with Harry - and perhaps that's what JK experienced when her mum died as well.

If anyone remembers right Harry saw his mother die when he was a baby... Why couldent he see them the entire time he was at Hogwarts?

Actually shouldn't the real plot hole is that Harry NEVER SEES CEDRIC DIE? Everyone needs to read Globet of Fire again. In chapter 33, when harry sees Wormtail his scar begins to hurt " his wand slipped from his fingers as he put his hands over his face; his knees buckled; he was on the ground and he could see nothing at all" It was only after Cedric's body falls to the ground that Harry finally opens his eyes.

J. K. Rowling said in an interview that Harry was still in shock from witnessing Cedric's death and the full realization that he had seen someone die was not fully set-in. As for his mother's death, she says that Harry was still a baby and would not have been able to understand what he saw; indeed, in the last book, when we see Voldemort remembering the incident, we see Harry laughing about his mother falling down, indicating he doesn't understand she is dead. Harry didn't see Quirrel die either; he fell unconscious before the Quirrel actually died. J. K. Rowling also says that if she had made the thestrals visible at the end of the fourth book, it wouldn't have made sense to the reader so she made the active decision to leave them out.

the biggest hole, is why hasnt harry seen them all along, as he witnessed his mothers death when he was one.

Does seeing death count as if you stepped on an ant?

When would Harry have seen thestrals at the end of the year? Does it specifically say, "Harry hopped onto one of the carriages completely oblivious of the big creepy effing winged horse pulling it." I mean jeez... Even if he DID take a carriage back to Hogsmeade Station... He was probably a bit distracted...

actually Jo said in some interview that Lily put Harry in his crib before Voldemort killed her, and Harry never actually saw it. He also passed out before seeing Quirrel die, and then in the BOOKS it is about witnessing, but also accepting death. Harry hasn't accepted it, as he kept refusing to believe it and having nightmares about it.

Okay, PEOPLE! What happens in the 4th book? CEDRIC dies right in front of Harry. He hadn't seen the Thestrals before because he was too young to remember seeing his parents die and he was passed out or "blacked out" when Quirrel died. And I think he didn't see them at the end because he was still unwilling to accept it. Has anyone around you ever died and you feel like it's not real for a while? Like, any moment they could walk through the door and you wouldn't really be surprised?

"this one i can't ignore the book clearly states someone who has seen death as explained by hermione, harry is clearly seen looking at his mother crying while she is dead in his bedroom" Harry is seen looking at Lily's body in the FILM. The FILM. They're don't count in terms of Rowling's Plot. And it's about accepting and understanding death, not just witnessing it.

He thought his parents died in a car accident. Obviously he doesn't recall their deaths

Harry had never actually seen death. He was probably too young to even realize his parents' had died, even though he had actually seen them die. Quirrel, however, died because of Harry...none the less, it is a plot hole. But nobody's perfect, right?

This is totally a problem. I've been bothered by it for years. But just to set the record straight- he didn't see Quirrel die. He was clearly alive when Dumbledore showed up. That doesn't really matter, of course, because this is still a hole regardless.

He also saw his parents die. So he should have seen him the very first day of his second year. I think 11 years is enough for the death to "sink in".

Because until he saw Cedric died he had never seen anyone die. He had been present but not witnessed it. Over the summer with the nightmares etc it all sunk in s when he returned for his 5th year walla. Neville could see them since first year but was to scred to say. Because no body mentioned them and was all mesmerised with th fact thy got pulled on there own.

the reason is because he hadnt yet accepted cedric diggory's death. it hadnt sunk in yet

he didn't see cedric die at all. he had his eyes shut. there's a plot hole pointed out further down which is that he wouldn't be able to see them in the 5th one

Its not about seeing death though is it? its about understanding death. Jk Rowling said that harry didn't see the thestrals in the fourth book because he needed time to let cedrics death sink in.

The first time he saw death, he was only 1 so wouldn't be able to remember. The second time, when quirrel died, he couldn't see for pain. It wasn't until when Cedric died that he truly saw death. On the way home though, he wasn't really concentrating on anything for all the feelings going on in his head. So he didn't notice them til on his way to hogwarts in his fifth year

I think that at such a young age death isn't understood and also nobody can remember anything from when they were a 1 year old. Quirrel was technically already dead from drinking the unicorn blood they said that because you have killed something so innocent you are no longer living a real live, a cursed life. But that's going by the movie. In the book Harry passes out and Quirrel is described as not dead only wounded. I think Harry didn't really see Cedric die, I think he only saw Cedric after he hit the ground. Remember he was looking around the graveyard and seeing Tom Riddle's tomb stone distracted him. Luna saw her mother die around the age of 9 so it makes sense why she could see them. Too young, too unconscious, and too distracted all add up to why he couldn't see them before Harry saw Sirius die.

this one i can't ignore the book clearly states someone who has seen death as explained by hermione, harry is clearly seen looking at his mother crying while she is dead in his bedroom and he is stand looking over the side of his crib, the you need death to sink in or to comprehend it, makes seeing death utterly pointless her saying she wanted to hide it from the audience until later because of story points doesn't stop it from being a plot hole it just means she accepted that it is a plot hole and decided screw it

he either rememebrs his parents death (because of aLLLLLLLLLL the flashbacks he has about it allllll thgrough the series... countless flashbacks of them dying nad him knowign they died later, still means he understood and acknowledged death, so either all the flashbacks he rmemebers are BULLSit or the thestrals or whatever are, but you harry potter fans cant have both its impossible, and j.k rowling has even said its a plot hole .. o well shes not jesus/

He was a baby when he saw his mother die. He was too young to comprehend that his mother was dead, and as for Quirrel, Harry was already knocked out before he died.

I've always wondered about this... I mean he noticed them in the 5th book but, he saw his parents, Quirrel (does he count?), Tom Riddle (does he count?), and Cedric. He should have been able to see them every year because he remembers his parents death and was there to see it happen

It did say that Harry thought that his parents would soon pop up and laugh...He thought it was a joke.. He didnt really know it...

Didn't Harry see his Mother get killed?

Harry MIGHT have seen the thestrals if he was actually LOOKING! It never says anything about harry seeing the carriages so therfore NO PLOT HOLE. Even if he did look he wouldn't see them because he did not yet process the thought that Cedric was truely dead. He did not understand Cedric's death and it did not sink in!

He did see his parents die as a baby and he did process it death is death even if your to stupid to get a clue the fact us you saw it regardless of age that's no excuse the writer just didn't create those creatures in the first book and the other then when she did she didn't fully think it through

you can only see the thestrals if you've seen someone die. When Harry was one years old, he might not've seen his parents actually die- he was a baby- he could've been closing his eyes or crying, or just simply not looking at the time! Or even if he had seen his parents die, to him it would've just seemed like they fell- when you're that young, you wouldn't have been able to tell right away. And also at the end of the 4th book harry took the TRAIN home, and even if the thestrals were there, he just wasn't looking in that direction!

yes, but he still saw death.

When Harry was a year old and saw his parrents die, he was too young to process it. When he 'saw' Quirrel's death, he didn't see it. He had passed out by then. When he saw Cedric's death, he didn't have time to process it. He was still processing the death by the time he was making his way 'home' from Hogwarts. This isn't a matter of a 'plot hole.' It is a matter of you being too stupid to understand English literature. Muggles these days. Jeez. *rolls eyes*

Wouldn't Harry have seen the thestrals the entire time? I mean he did see his parents die when he was 1 yr old...

The comment about whether or not Harry saw Quirrel's death is redundant. Why would the death of someone who was trying to kill him cause Harry grief? Thestrals appear to those who have had the experience of grieving. Although Rowling allegedly admitted that it was a minor plothole, I hold with the ideas (as mentioned in previous comments) that 1 Hermione was the one that looked in the Thestral's direction or that Harry was in a state of shock and denial.

Cause Cedric's death still hadn't "sunk in" in Harry yet.

They don't go back on the Thestrals, they walk back to the train

Anyone ever hear of 'shock'?

Wow! You people don't pay attention! You don't see the thestrals because you see someone die! You see them because you can accept and understand death!

What about the fact that Harry never actually saw Cedric die either. Read GoF carefully, He had his eyes closed the whole time, only seeing cedric dead once he opened them.

He was in denial. DABDA, anyone? This is officially explained at some point in the series.

This is the one that bugs the crap out of me. He sees Cedric die, and doesn't see the thestrals until the beginning of book 5? I understand if he doesn't see the thestrals after seeing his parents die because he was a baby, but he sees them because of Cedric's death, but not until the next year. Hmmm, something wrong there. I even went back and reread, and the end of book four makes mention of the fact that the carriages are pulled by nothing and Harry is at least aware of this.

I know the answer to this: Its because he was to young to remember, I mean can you remember anything when you were one years old. No you can't.

It doesn't matter if he couldn't understand his parent's deaths because at the end of GoF he had ALREADY seen Cedric die so he should be able to see the thestrals.

NOT A PLOTHOLE. Explained by Rowling: Death needs to "sink in." I take that to mean one needs to perceive and understand what is happening. A one-year-old doesn't understand death.

When Harry's parents died he didn't understand the true meaning of death, and when he was older, although he understood that they had died, he couldn't actually remember seeing someone die so therefore could not see them. Cedric dying and the school term ending happened in a short space of time- the death of someone doesn't sink in that quickly for some people, especially if he had seen someone die, saw Voldemort come back, almost died himself, then with all the stuff about mad eye it probably wouldn't have sunk in until he got back to the Dursley's when he was alone and able to think about what had really happened.