TOP 20 HARRY POTTER PLOT HOLES

It says in the books that Hagrid got him as soon as it happened. He traveled on that Flying motorbike so he had to of taken more than 15 hours to drive to Surrey. Dumbledore had more than likely arranged a port key to get him there when it happened.

So many people commenting on speed, how many of you have ever traveled with a baby? I doubt it's many, here in the states it's actually illegal to take a child on a plane under the age of 6 months because it can be deeply damaging to a baby due to the air pressure exerted on an imperfect skull. Children under the age of 2 aren't supposed to be allowed to sit in a car longer then two hours at a time due to the massive ill effects it can have on their bone structure. I'm going to make it clear, if you think slow, careful travel with a baby doesn't make sense, you aren't fit to carry a child.

You wouldn't apperate with a baby they could get splinched which is why most wizards don't appaerate. Did you even read the books.

Babies cannot apparate. Apparating is not like using a portkey. Sirius' motorbike was probably the quickest and safest way to transport baby Harry. With regards to the journey taking such a long time: Lord Voldemort and the Death Eaters were universally feared in the wizarding world, and baby Harry (and baby Neville) were being hunted. Perhaps they waited to travel with Harry to ensure that the Dark Lord had in fact disappeared and it wasn't just a trap to lull them into a false sense of security.

duuudes, just accept it: Its a plot hole! Nobody is perfect, although JK damn near is!

Nowhere is it said Harry was left alone for hours. Snape was there soon after lily and james died. He could have easily stayed until hagrid or some other friend of the family got there. Also, Hagrid had to find Sirus borrow his bike get harry meet Dumbledore

It would take Hagrid almost a day to fly carefully and slowly with a little baby, and they would probably have to stop for food and rest along the way. And, also, "Hagrid doesn't Travel By Magic" isn't a plot hole. It was actually done on purpose, to have some connection to Sirius (it was Sirius' motorbike). It would probably be too dangerous to Apparate with a baby, anyway.

Didn't Snape go into the house where Lily died, almost right after it happened?

Your terrible grammar made me die a little inside.

i don't think your taking into account how long it would take for hagrid to travel to and from godrics hollow...it could have, for all we know, taken that long. Also, Hagrid was taking the baby right to Dumbledore and McGonagall, who are both pretty awesome wizards and might have been able to help him if something had gone wrong. The fact that Harry didn't die in the first place and wasn't unconcious is probably a sign that his health was fine, too.

"Hagrid doesn't travel by magic." is another plot hole. Would you send an untrained wizard who does not apparate to retrieve a baby from a dangerous situation? You can explain it by saying he happen to be on his way to visit the Potters and showed up barely after the house was blown up. He got Harry out and maybe made a call to Dumbledore using whatever wizards do to communicate and was told to bring him to Privet Drive. The distance still bother me England is not that big an island especially when flying. Paris to Heathrow is 30 minutes at worse. You spent more time checking in and checking out than flying. Say the flying motorbike only travel at a quarter the speed of the average airliner you still be able to join any two points in England in less than two hours.

Yet the flying motorbike was used again and it was fast enough to almost outrun death eater on broom. Did JK ever made a map of her magical world?

Hagrid doesn't travel by magic. It would take time for him to get from place to place. I'm not sure how he got to Godric's Hollow but I know he took the motorbike to get to the Dursley's, seems like a long bike ride.

No, dumbledore said that it was too risky too have him taken anyWhere after the event. The place was quarantined, and in a later book there was a debate over the scare being cursed. You have to read the entire series! Did u ever think that the news of what had happened had ot reached the wizarding people until morning and that serious and hagrid and dumbledore had been with Harry all day at the potter house trying to make sense of everything?

I know! They should have went back and SAVED DOBBY!!

if you mess with time, seriously bad things can happen, and there's no telling what they will be, and no matter how many times you go back, you may not be able to put things right. Plus they were all destroyed... JKR probably included this to avoid people thinking of anything like this.^^^^

the question is not "why don't harry, ron, and hermione use the time turner again," it's "why doesn't ANYONE use a time turner to solve serious problems?" stop saying "hermione had to give it back." you don't think dumbledore could have gotten another one? and i hate the idea that "people with time turners have to make sure the don't see themselves, or else they'd go crazy." if i had a time turner and saw myself, my first thought would be "hmm, i guess in a couple hours i'll use the time turner and come back to this time," not "oh my god, is that me? i'm going crazy!" and how long would it take for the future you to just explain "hey, don't worry, it's just me. i used the time turner." as long as you never went back beyond when you got the time turner, i think you'd be fine.

Yes, yes, no limitations... besides the Department of Mysteries which specifically controlled them and regulated their use. If you care to remember, Voldemort couldn't get into the Department of Mysteries until Harry broke into it. And all of the Time Turners were destroyed during the firefight that took place there.

Because somewhere it says that timeturners can only go back i time an hour or two which in most situations isn't worthwhile enough. You can't go ack and change 10 years, 1 ear, 1 month, 1 week, heck, 1 day ago. You probably cannot change 12 hours ago. You could change minor problems within the last couple hours like we all have but anyone wise and responsible will recognize that such petty things aren't work the risks of manipulating time

exactly like 2 comments back.

Why is everyone saying it was destroyed after HP5.What about the earlier time.Surely that thing was not created just for Hermione.It always existed.And if no one can bring the dead back.How Harry and Hermione were able to bring Buckbeak back from death?

Hermione has to give hers back. In the 4th book, the ministry is still in power and rigorously controls them. At the end of the fifth they get destroyed. Simple

That would create a paradox. Say, if Harry1 took a Time Turner before they were all destroyed in the 5th book, went back in time, killed Voldemort before Voldemort killed his parents, why would Harry2 go back if he had his parents and Voldemort is dead? Because he DOESN'T go back in time, the timeline reverts back to the first one, thus creating an infinite loop that oscilates back and forth between the two timelines (This is of course assuming nothing else happens and Harry doesn't, say, become his father or something). THAT IS NOT A GOOD STORY. Besides, I'm certain that Harry Potter doesn't use the "Time may be rewritten" time. If something happens, it happens, there is no stopping it, there is no going back in time to stop it, nothing. Besides, "No magic can revive the dead," were you not paying attention?

they were destroyed

Alright EVERYONE. it's obvious isn't it? Hermione was the best in her year. She wanted to take all the classes so professor mcgonagall, an extremely influential person, got her one. Also, they DID get destroyed and do you really think voldemort would have wanted to break into the ministry only to get a little thing that he'd have to turn for hours to UNDP what he did? no. He would have found it above him. Also, just ask yourself one question. In the space between when voldemort came back and when the time turners were destroyed, everyone thought voldemort was dead. Why would they go back in time to destroy him if he was dead? As for the people who knew he was back, why would they use the time turners? Would you do it? I most certainly would not.

Because all of the time-turners were destroyed in the Department of Mysteries, so Voldemort or anyone else couldn't have used one to go back in time. I'm also pretty sure Hermione got her time-turner confiscated because she used it for something other than school.

First of all how the hell would voldemort get hermione's time tuner? All the other time tuners were destroyed in the Order of the Phoenix when they were running away so that part does not make sense what you said... Harry didn't use the time tuner to kill voldemort because time travelling can be dangerous and there is certain laws... maybe if you read the books you would no some of this!!!

They didn't go back because the series would have been terrible if they had. J.K. Rowling just knows how to write a fantastic story. Duh.

Someone could have gone back in time and killed Voldermort when he was a kid!! Or his mother!!

-It's because in the third book, Harry and Hermione were ALWAYS going to go back in time to save Sirius and Buckbeak because Dumbledore came up with the plan while Sirius and Buckbeak were still alive and Dumbledore probably came up with this plan immediately after learning what happened. -Once someone is dead, you just can't bring them back through any means. -If they used the time turner to stop the ritual, Voldemort would have found another way to come to power because of his horcruxes! -Voldemort would not have been able to get his hands on a time-turner or tell anyone to get one for him, because he was so weak before the ritual and most of his followers were in Azkaban, and you saw how long it took for Voldemort to get in the Department of Ministries. Voldemort wouldn't be able to go back and not curse Harry (which by the way Voldemort never knew about marking Harry his equal so Voldemort didn't even have that advantage) because Harry was ALREADY marked his equal and you just can't go back in time and easily take back part of your soul once you put it in someone or something else.

Why does everyone always reason this with "they were destroyed at the end of book 5". What about book 4? after voldemort was revived? no excuse then. Besides messing with time of course, but 'book 5 they were destroyed' is not an excuse for not using them between book 3 and 5. Stop saying it.

Because they were all destroyed in the department of mysteries. EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM!

If I remember correctly, Hermione hands in her time-turner to Professor Mcgonigal, and she couldn't get a new one past the ending of Order of the Pheonix because they were all destroys when they battled in the Ministry of Magic.

Because you can't change when someone has died. But Sirius Black wasn't dead when Hermione used the time turner to make her and Harry go back in time. It could also be because Hermione did not have the time turner the next year. Does it say that she does have it or doesn't have it at any other point in the series?

The way the timeline works in Hp, in that is fixed, i.e. anything that happens when someone goes back in time, has already happened (thus preventing paradoxes)

You're forgetting that Hermione just wasn't some 'school girl' she was pretty much the best in their year and proved responsible enough to have one. Also, its like she said in PoA - if future Harry ran in on past Harry in Hagrids hut, past Harry could have killed future Harry thinking it was dark magic. Meddling with time is far too risky and it could change the whole future, something could have gone wrong which could have led to Voldemort succeeding in killing Harry and then risen to full power.

ahh don't give me that all time tuners were destroyed crap, if they were so rare and important they wouldn't give it to a school girl so she can take 2 extra classes , and i find it hard to believe that molfoy with all his influence would find it hard to obtain a single time tuner, there must defiantly be some left in some people homes or black goods shops, and in my opinion time travel must never have been used in harry potter, and for those guys who say past cannot be changed time travel just introduces a loop and that loop can be used to change many things in many places in series, like if they didnt go back in time sirus would have died by kiss so they went back and saved him just because we didnt see him die that day dosent mean he would have escaped if they didnt go back to save him, so the whole time travel concept is faulty.

Simply because it is not a series about time travel...

I had the same question but remember that a time turner can only go back a certain amount of hours and if someone sees you the whole future is in jeprody. Plus at the end of the Order of the Pheonix, when they broke into the ministry all the time turners were destroyed.

It could save Lily and she can marry Snape so Severus life won't be such miserable from beginning to the end. *wailing*

its dosnt matter if you go back in time whats done is done, going back wont make a differance, its a closed loop time structure, this actually makes more sense then going back in time and chaging things if it happens in the present then if you go back it will still happen

1. It is not true that they can only go back 24 hours. They can go back years, but the number of times you would need to turn one of the dang things would be very, very numerous. 2. They WERE destroyed during the Ministry Battle in OotP. 3. "Voldemort is many things, but he is not foolish." Are you serious? He is the biggest fool there ever was, making a LIVE SNAKE into a Horcrux, and also choosing to make such glorious objects/items as his Horcruxes. Had he just made Horcruxes out of paperclips and bottlecaps, the dummy might've lived past Harry Potter LOL!

I dont know why not on the fourth (it would have been too much and too soon of the time turner), but at the fifth, the time turners were destroyed when they got into the Department of Mysteries, and apparently they are hard to rebuild, or they did not have time after knowing about Voldemort reappearance.

:O Harry Potter 9 - Death Eaters use a time turner and revive voldemort? I guess JK just realised how stupid this idea was and tried to hide it after HP3.

I haven't read all of the comments here but you're forgetting the main point. You can't meddle with time! If someone died, its their destiny to die, and you mustn't save them. By saving them you could change the future and have a worse outcome. This has always bugged me how people overlooked Hermione saying you can't meddle with time.

Everyone is saying that they were destroyed, which doesn't seem a particularly legitimate answer to me. If the wizarding world can produce these things, and they are so unvaluable they're willing (even grudgingly) to give them to a schoolgirl, they must be able to make more. But I'm not just here to gripe about other answers. If it was a schoolgirl and the Time Turners were capable of dramatically altering the past, all the letters of recommendation in the world couldn't convince them. After all, Tom Riddle had them all fooled, didn't he? And who knows what those things could have meant for the future. Voldemort is many things, but he is not foolish. I think he would have been wise enough to not want to tempt the Fates, because who knew what repercussions his action could have? Perhaps, if Harry's death was not obviously at the hand of Voldemort as a more powerful wizard, people could make it out to be a cowardly thing for Voldemort to do, going back in time to kill him, too afraid to face whatever happened in the future. Maybe he would have been made into a martyr, something to make them fight even harder. And why is everyone forgetting about his mother's protection? Just because his mother isn't here now doesn't mean her protection doesn't still stand. What about in book one, when Voldemort can't even touch Harry? And all the Time Turners are in the custody of the Ministry. I can't particularly see Voldemort, or even when of his followers, waltzing in their there to grab one. How would Lucius Malfoy explain away being caught with an illegal stolen Time Turner in his pocket?

Hermoine gave back her time turner to McGonagall because the work was to much, and all the other ones were destroyed

In the 5th book, it states that all the Time Turner's were destroyed during the Battle at the Ministry, and Rowling also mentions that Time Turners are not used often, and she portrays them to be frowned upon...and not used often AT ALL

but harmione, ron, and harry are on the run from voldemort and trying to kill him. of all the people i think she WOULDNT turn over her time turner to a knowingly corrupted thing like the ministry. also if you cant change something but further it along instead then they couldnt technically save buckbeack or sirius but they did so that makes no sense. the only reason why they coudlnt do it would be because you have to re live the time u went back but even then if u just travel forward you cancel it out and voldemorts dead.

This had me thinking about plot holes in the first place. Are they telling me that Voldemort, splitter of souls, can't handle a little time meddling?

Just before similar questions like from Aaaaa are asked, Hermione says at the end of the third book (p.314): "...That Time-Turner, it was driving me mad. I've handed it in..."

You cannot use it to change the past directly. Going back in time to kill someone would be detrimental to the furture. Hermione going back to take more classes did not effect anyone. Remember in the book when Harry wanted to grab Wormtail and kill him, and Hermione said that he couldn't do that because it would change their whole future.

You can only go back 24 hours

you need to get ministry permission to use thejm and there storm of timeturners was distroyed in book5

This is a quick question, How come Hermione and Harry didn't use the time turner to go back in time to save Cedric and warn Dumbledore that TWT cup is bewitched or tell him that voldy is coming back from the "dead" in the graveyard?

you cant change something, just further it along. in PoA harry sees a Patronus he thinks is his dads but its his. If they hadnt gone back there wouldnt have been a Patronus. Its a closed loop. (sorry if thats confusing)

It's said in the 6th book I think that all the time-turners were destroyed when Harry was in the Department of Mysteries.

The following is written on the time turner: "My use and value unto you are gauged by what you have to do. I mark the hours every one nor have I yet outrun the sun." This suggests that the time turner cannot actually change anything, the user can only do what they have already done.

I think it's mainly because it'd be way too complicated to add that part in. If Harry/Voldie went back in time, they could be seen, do some dastardly deeds, creating a lot of havoc, confusion, etc., and I think the reader might be lost. -Shrugs-

*sorry about my spelling--my keyboard is having problems.

Sirius Black is in no way proper parenting material. Regardless of 'when' Harry discovered the mirror, Sirius could have easily told him about it. I don't know what was running through Lily's mind when she allowed James to select Sirius as godfather. Remus would have been much better. Too bad about that werewolf thing...

Harry didn't know about the mirror, since Sirius couldn't tell him at the station - it was too risky. Sirius could obviously tell that Harry was in a bit of a hurry and needed information. If Sirius had told Harry to use the mirror right there, Harry would have to leave Umbridge's office, go to his dorm, dig through his trunk until he found it, and THEN talked to Sirius. Harry just didn't have that kind of time. And Sirius may have been going to tell Harry, but Umbridge caught them before the coversation was over.

Harry never opened the mirror, until the end of the book. He had completely forgotten about it.

Harry didn't open the mirror until the end of the book when he was packing up his things when Sirius was dead. He had no idea that it was a two way mirror. If he did open it beforehand and contacted Sirius through it, they would never have gone to the ministry, the death eaters would never have been arrested, Sirius wouldn't have died and the Ministry would have never seen Voldemort and still thought Harry and Dumbledore were lying. And when he did contact Sirius in the fireplace Sirius had things to tell him about the Order and the outside that he probably forgot about the mirror himself. Also, Harry isn't perfect, his rash decision to use the fireplace shows a flaw in his character that many of the readers will be able to relate too.

Sirius couldn't tell him at the station because Harry had to go. And sending an owl would have been too risky. Marry forgot about the package and he eventually opened it after Sirius had died and smashed it. Because he was so angry. But because of the mirror remember that dumbledore's bother saved him from the ms toys dungeon and promised death.

No way Harry didn't know how the mirror worked. Sirius has explained it to him. Using the mirror also will not harm Sirius at all since he was comfortably staying in Grimauld Place and can use it without the need of showing himself anywhere. It's a big big plot hole.

Harry never knew it was a two way mirror until after Sirius' death. And after what was going on, I agree with a comment above that the last thing Sirius would think about is the mirror with so many things to talk about.

not a plot hole just lack of advice

You have kind have answered yourself "Harry says he just wanted to talk about his dad" Sirius missed James aswell and knew how much it meant to Harry, He probably didnt want to tell Harry to use the Mirror as a thought of insensitvity.

Sorry guys of the grammer mistakes/ typo's, there is no edit button, so I can't go back and change it (maybe because I don't have an account, as I am a guest). I just read it back, there are quite a few mistakes- e.g. serious = sirius , preent = present + repeating word at the start and end of a sentence- like 'now'= "Now you may be thinking now" it should be: 'Now you may be thinking', (removing the double now). Or= "Aside from his already menstioned mistakes he mensions" when it should be 'aside from his already menstioned mistakes,' (cutting out the "he mensions"- being a repeat). Wow, I wrote a lot and I have a english exam tomorrow ¬_¬ LOL. Explains why I wrote so much.

Spelling check= Serious= sirius (sorry for that mistake) portayed= portrayed (typo) Additional comment: Therefore, you can't blame Harry at all, he never knew what it did- all he wanted to do, was avoid using it as he never wanted sirius to get in trouble- can you see the irony now, its absolutely absurd, but in a good/ fustrating way. Now you may be thinking now, it's sirius black falut- well to an extent I agree with you, however he did have his reasons as to why he doesn't menstion it. Firstly, sirius black was in an arguement with snape. He was planning on giving the mirror to harry, before snape intruded. Out of fustration he gave harry the mirror, and said: (paraphrasing) if you ever have a problem with snape, just use this *gives the mirror, wrapped up- so harry had no clue as to what it is*. Sirius out of fustration and running out of time, proberly thought he had explained/ thought harry knew what it would do, by the way he gave it. Harry obviously, through it was something that would get sirius into further trouble, so he swore never to open it (biggest mistake , on serious half/ tiny bit on harry part.) Serious black should have given this at the begging of the year, as he wouldn't have had to do all those fireplace metting then- In the end he was stopped by umbridge from doing anymore, as he was almost caught. However, dumbledore knew of the mirror function. Finally we get down to dumblefore being at falut. Ok, as he menstioned he made a grave mistake; being smarter, than normal men, his mistakes tend to be bigger than other- paraphrased from his talk with harry. Aside from his already menstioned mistakes he mensions, his decision not to talk to harry also meant that harry could not talk about sirius black preent, which would have lead to dumbledore telling him function of the mirror. Overall, I don't think this is a unintended plot hole, it was planned by J.K Rowling. Just to add a ironic twist, to the plot.

This was quite ironic/ absurd in a sense. Harry could have comunicated with serious through the mirror, to double check if serious was there. Whats ironic, is the fact that they communicated dangerously (through the fireplace) but always had the chance to communicate safely. Harry instinctively went in a hurry to save serious through rash measures, when sirius black had given him an item which was to be used if harry was ever in trouble, but on the contrary it was the other way around. Because of that, it didn't even flash harry mind to use it- showing the mirror at the end, just added to the irony- which can be comprehended 2 books later, in the 7th book, after we understand the significance of the mirror. J.K rowling was very well aware of this fact, and she even portayed the writing at the end of the 5th book in such a significant way (read the 5th book back, you will be killing yourself over, why harry doesn't look at the darn mirror).

When Harry was being handed it he tried to resist, telling Sirus that he didn't want him to get caught; in the end he gave in to keep his uncle happy, but never planned on using it. He threw it in his trunk and forgot about it; we are told that Sirus saw James in Harry; and James and Sirus would have thought it great craic to break into a teachers office to contact someone on the outside world, and was so happy to see Harry that he would have completely forgotten about the two way mirror.

Does everyone remember everything? Harry had so many things to tell him, and so did Sirius, so is the first think that you think about a mirror? No, I didn't think so. And by the way, Harry didn't know what the mirror did, and he was kind of afraid of using it. Did you actually read the books thouroughly?

I think book 5 has the most plot holes. Sirius had a chance to tell Harry to use the mirror when he first appeared at the fireplace but he didn't. I also find it weird that the magical community hasn't so much invented a popular communication device like mobile phones while Sirius had been using a 3G mirror for years. Surely if it was possible to do that with magic then everyone else would do it instead of using owls (which is so impractical) and there's just no way to intercept a 3G mirror like that

I personally dont understand why molly would have dissaproved of the mirror, it was a safe way for harry to communicate. It seems a little dumb not to just have told harry even if he didnt open it right then and there

sirius liked recklessness, he wanted harry to be a rebel like his dad... he would have thought it an adventure to break in to umbridge's office. Also he was probably a little concern, about harry coming to talk maybe he simply forgot.

Harry didn't know about the mirror until after Sirius died. athough i think that sirius should have told him to open the present, but harry didn't want to open it once he got it bec. he thought that whatever it was was going to expose sirius to the public. sirius told him it was something to use when he needed him (harry thought it would bring sirius to him.) that is the way i understood it.

-Oh cool! My godson broke into that fat frog's office just to use the floo! I'm so prou- oh wait, he wants to talk about his father (serious moment). As for Harry not using the mirror: he thought that it get sirius in trouble, so he stuffed in his trunk and promptly forgot about it. Even if he wasn't stressed out he wouldn't have even think about it.

For an attention-starved orphan with an easy ticket to ranting through a mirror that could safely communicate with his godfather. I think it was weak writing and characterization on Harry's part. He should have jumped at every opportunity to get to know Sirius.

he didn't open the package until after Sirius died :(

Harry was panicking. He thought Sirius was dead. How would the mirror have worked then? -_-

I don't know why Sirius didn't remind him, maybe just weak thinking on Sirius's part, but when Harry fell asleep during the HIstory of Magic examination, I thought that it was Harry's default thinking...he usually is this rash, so it would be likely of him to forget the mirror. But I dont know why Sirius didn't tell him. :/

This was one of the most retarded parts in that book.

that always made me so mad, that he didnt just look at the mirror. oh well.

I might be wrong, but I don't think that Harry ever opened the package that the mirror was in until after sirius died. But yeah, if Harry used it after seeing Voldemort torturing sirius, sirius wouldn't have died.

Could he have thought Harry had broken it and decided not to mention it?

Wouldn't Harry have seen the thestrals the entire time? I mean he did see his parents die when he was 1 yr old...

The comment about whether or not Harry saw Quirrel's death is redundant. Why would the death of someone who was trying to kill him cause Harry grief? Thestrals appear to those who have had the experience of grieving. Although Rowling allegedly admitted that it was a minor plothole, I hold with the ideas (as mentioned in previous comments) that 1 Hermione was the one that looked in the Thestral's direction or that Harry was in a state of shock and denial.

Cause Cedric's death still hadn't "sunk in" in Harry yet.

They don't go back on the Thestrals, they walk back to the train

Anyone ever hear of 'shock'?

Wow! You people don't pay attention! You don't see the thestrals because you see someone die! You see them because you can accept and understand death!

What about the fact that Harry never actually saw Cedric die either. Read GoF carefully, He had his eyes closed the whole time, only seeing cedric dead once he opened them.

He was in denial. DABDA, anyone? This is officially explained at some point in the series.

This is the one that bugs the crap out of me. He sees Cedric die, and doesn't see the thestrals until the beginning of book 5? I understand if he doesn't see the thestrals after seeing his parents die because he was a baby, but he sees them because of Cedric's death, but not until the next year. Hmmm, something wrong there. I even went back and reread, and the end of book four makes mention of the fact that the carriages are pulled by nothing and Harry is at least aware of this.

I know the answer to this: Its because he was to young to remember, I mean can you remember anything when you were one years old. No you can't.

It doesn't matter if he couldn't understand his parent's deaths because at the end of GoF he had ALREADY seen Cedric die so he should be able to see the thestrals.

NOT A PLOTHOLE. Explained by Rowling: Death needs to "sink in." I take that to mean one needs to perceive and understand what is happening. A one-year-old doesn't understand death.

When Harry's parents died he didn't understand the true meaning of death, and when he was older, although he understood that they had died, he couldn't actually remember seeing someone die so therefore could not see them. Cedric dying and the school term ending happened in a short space of time- the death of someone doesn't sink in that quickly for some people, especially if he had seen someone die, saw Voldemort come back, almost died himself, then with all the stuff about mad eye it probably wouldn't have sunk in until he got back to the Dursley's when he was alone and able to think about what had really happened.

He never saw his parents die. In the movie if you watch the seen it looks like he did. But in the book he was asleep or looking the other way. But in the Goblet of Firehe sees Cedric die therefore he can see the threstrals

^^ Harry didn't leave by other means after 4th year. The train ride as well as Hermione giving him a kiss on the cheek is sufficiently covered at the end of GOF to put that idea to rest. Please stick to the original material. The books and movies don't always agree and they can't both be canon.

if you read it properly, you'll see that the book never mentions harry looking at the carriages. "Hermione turned away, smiling at the horseless carriages...." its actually hermione who looks at the carriages, not harry.

It could be that Harry left hogwarts in a different manor. Since mrs weary was there and a lot of ministry officials, it's quite possible they didn't want him speaking with other students about this incident and therefor they avoided him riding on the carriages and possibly even using the train to get home. Maybe flu power or a port key, since we know harrys first side by side apparition wasn't till later

What I have asked myself is, Why Harry didnt see the thestrals in his first year at Hogwards. Thestrals were seen by people who have seen death. Even that Harry was a baby, he saw his mother dying. He wouldnt remember, but he was a witness of it, and it was in his subconscience, as his encounter with the first dementor let us know. He could hear his mother screaming. So, wasnt he supposed to see the thestrals since the first year?

I would understand this not letting the death "sink in" if it had been Sirius's death in Book 5 that he first saw. That's what I would call not letting a death "sink in". I'm pretty sure he came to terms with Cedric's death before the end of Book 4.

No they don't walk. It says they take the carriages.

Calling other peoples' questions "completely idiotic" when yours is quite easily explained is unbelievably ignorant.

I honestly think they Walk to the Station, They just get the Carridges when they got off the train because of the time and how tired they would be. The Arrive at night leave During Day.

I think it makes alot of sense that you need to come to terms with someones death before seeing the thestrals. If you're ignorant, you shouldn't have the opportunity to see such unique creatures.

If the death needs to 'sink in', it does seem fair enough that his parents deaths hadn't sunk in for the first 10 years of his life, he was only a year old at the time. If the Dursleys' were nice and treated literally as their son, he would have no reason to believe that they in fact weren't his parents and the death of his parents would never sink in because he can't even remember them (except for green light in dreams, but he would never attribute that to his parents death). However when he find the mirror of Erised he sees his whole family and cries his eyes out and goes back repeatedly, surely the death truely sunk in then?

So basically someone could see thestrals if they could convince themselves or could be convinced by someone else that they had seen someone dying. The actual seeing of someone dying doesn't matter, all that matters is if you thought they had died?

Well, actually he should have been able to see them since year one, considering he watched his mom die. Yes, this is a big hole, but surely no one can get everything perfect!

I think he didn't see them because he was more thinkig about voldemort and holidays

Well, introducing a new mystery at the end makes people even more eager to get their hands on the next book, so why wouldn't she want that? 'sunk in' I'd think he had enough time to let it sink in, don't you? It seemed like when he was screaming 'Cedric, no!' He realised the dude was dead, no?

She says on her fanpage that she didn't want to open that can of worms at the end of the book, and that few enough would notice this. Those that would notice would probably check her page for FAQs.

it never actually mentions the ride in the carriages maybe they don't ride in them on the way back

^^ He saw Quirrel die in the first MOVIE, but not in the book. If we are to pick on plot holes, we should probably stick to the original material.

also he saw Quirrel die in the first movie but he still couldnt see the thestrals

Also, Rowling didn't want to introduce a new "mystery" that wouln't be resolved until the next book came out.

Previous comment is correct, except that Cedric's death HADN'T sunk in at the end of the fourth book. It took a while before Harry came to terms with seeing him die.

Everyone commenting here is misinterpreting what people are saying. Harry should have seen the Thestrals at THE END of the FOURTH book, after seeing CEDRIC DIE, instead of in the beginning of the fifth book. When you're all saying J.K. Rowling said "it didn't sink in", she was talking about the years Harry had taken the carriages BEFORE Cedric's death. I think there's no explanation for this one, it's just a plot hole.

-_- Either way, end of fourth book is in hermionie's perspective. Harry was too cut to realise the thestrals were even there

I would have to check, but I thought they only rode the carriages when they are arriving at the castle? Again, you all seem to be in agreement, so I'm probably wrong, but I thought I'd throw it out there.

^^I kind of agree, but wouldn't that kind of ruin the story a bit? When you're reading it, you don't want to be thinking "ah, she made a mistake here". Everyone makes mistakes and it makes sense for her to make it like she meant to. Even if she didn't.

"He hadn't let it sink yet"? Wow. That's the weakest explanation I've ever seen. I wish Rowling would admit when she screws up, as opposed to trying to explain her plotholes with BS like that.

rowling has said that the death has to be accepted, so on his way home, he had not fully come to terms with what he had witnessed.

It says in the Deathly Hallows, when he "becomes" Voldemort and it tells us how Voldemort saw the night the Potters died and he tried to kill harry, that Harry thought his parents were only pretending to die. He didnt understand that his parents died right in front of his eyes, so when he saw Cedric die, he had finally seen (and understood) someone die right in front of his eyes.

It is as bri1234 said, he hadn't let Cedric's death sink in.

I never got this either. You`d think someone would notice huge black horses that look like skeletons with wings.

J.K said that Harry wasn't old enough to understand death when his parents died. He wasn't able to let it "sink in." He was when Cedric died because he was much older.

Maybe Harry just wasn't paying attention. It never says that Harry looked at the carriages but saw no thestrals. He might have been looking at the ground, or busy talking to Ron.

Peter held it for safekeeping

he did not become a spirit, he sort of became another being, as when he made Harry a hulcrox, he had ripped his soul too many times, I think maybe his wand transformed with him.

No longer a plot hole, it was but JKR answered it. "Upon his curse rebounding upon himself, Voldemort's wand was blasted from his body and landed not far away from his body in the ruin of the Potter home. After Rubeus Hagrid rescued the infant Harry from the wreckage of the house later that evening, Peter Pettigrew returned to the house and discovered the Dark Lord's wand in the wreckage[1], taking it with him as he fled the scene in order to prevent the wand from falling into the Ministry's hands and possibly exposing him as a traitor since all wands have a record of the spells they have cast and can be examined by those trained to do so. He would keep this wand in an undisclosed location for twelve long years afterwards, until the time when he could locate its true owner once again" Source: harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Tom_Riddle%27s_wand

From the Harry Potter Wiki and sourced from JKR, Pettigrew returned to the Potter house that evening after Hagrid left with baby Harry, found the wand hidden amongst the rubble, and took it with him so as to prevent the Ministry from finding it and discovering his treachery. Peter hid the wand in an undisclosed location before Sirius tracked him down and confronted him.

for anyone who tried to make the argument of Voldemort simply using another person's wand; you're forgetting the priori incantatum effect of the wands locking. It is specifically stated that this is the result of the brother cores of Harry's and Voldemort's wands.

snape was still working as a double agent at the time, he would have been one of the first to enter the house, and he would have been the one who knew about voldemorts plans to kill the potters, as he told dumbledore before it had happened. unfortunately they trusted the wrong person. obviously it wasn't mentioned in the novels, however my guess would be that snape took it shortly after finding the potters dead. just a guess

in the film it shows snape showing up to find lily's body - he could have taken the wand

1. His body DID very much go poof. He said he was ripped from his body. If he had been able to carry and/or use a wand, he would not have needed pettigrew to help him so much. If he could still do magic when dead, what is the point of being alive even. 2. Snape would not have returned the wand b/c SPOILER... he was a good guy 3. Voldemort never mentioned followers being with him in his memory. 4. Pettigrew has been covered. 5. It was either Dennis Kucinich or this is a plot hole

Is it specified in the book that his wand survived the attempted killing of Harry? Couldn't it have been destroyed with him, and he stole a wand from somebody else when he returned?

1. Anyone who spells his name "VoldeRmort" should not be commenting about the intricacies of Potter. 2. Movie canon *is* J.K. Rowling approved; she is the one who wrote in the scene in the first movie where it is shown that Voldemort travelled ALONE to the Potter's house. And because movie canon is JKR approved additional canon to the books, that means that Snape was one of the first to arrive to the Potter house to find James and Lily dead (as per DH Part 2). Also to correct another mistake from some other comment, OBVIOUSLY Snape also knew that the Potters were going to be targeted. 3. We can assume it wasn't Snape who took Voldemort's wand, though--no connection. 4. In one of the books it did say that the curse rebounded upon Voldemort but didn't say exactly the state he was left in. Whether it was that gaseous form or a very weak body (because by then he had already made Horcruxes). Though his body was not at the Potter's, that doesn't mean it just went *poof*.

Peter had all the time in the world to fetch the wand. If you look at it, it does not say how long the Potters were dead before the officials arrived.

I havent read the book (dont kill me) but in movie 7:2 Snape is seen crying and holding Lily potter after her death. He could have picked it up and given it to him 14 years later or possibly just given it to wormtail...

The accio spell doesn't work on most objects of importance throughout the series. If it did dumbledore could've disarmed voldemort from the world over cuz he is effin dumbledore. Poor reasoning.

^wormtail didn't have a wand but I see your point. He could have just used another's wand and summoned it or maybe he doesn't need a wand to summon stuff cuz he's effing Voldemort.

Accio Wand. Duh. He'd have to use wormtails wand but so what?

ok.....so dobby's evil brother we will call him steve. Follows Voldy to the Potter house. Then after Tom Riddle turns to dust on the floor steals away the wand and puts it on Ebay (registered trademark) it sells to Dennis Kucinich for a large sum who hopes to protect himself from the imminent threat of alien invaders. when the aliens dont come he lists it on Craigs List and sells it to lucious molfoys younger brother Frank. Well Frank does not know what to do with it so he chucks it int the bin where peter petigrew living as a rat snatches it up and hides it next to the goul in rons attic. then after seeing that sirrus escaped from azkaban grabs it in his maw and lugs it around until he finds voldy...just as likely as the rest of you guys...no that's not what happened . there is no explanation. period

to the post of .......Voldemort could have travelled to the house with an entourage of Death Eaters. Lucius Malfoy among them, quite likely. Just because the house was destroyed and Voldemort "killed" doesn't mean the rest of the Death Eaters would have been. One of them could have easily grabbed the wand before any Ministry person showed up. Why? Save it for Voldemort, or just as a relic.......not possible the book covers this when harry is attacked by nagini in godrics hollow. Voldy relives the night and with no mention of his followers. clearly a plot hole

Who ever thought of this plot hole is a mad genius and is a brilliant person I to was wondering about this. U deserve a award for this... I want to marry Harry potter lol

there is no answer, every one who thinks there is an answer you are all idiots!

Not a plot hole: Voldemort could have travelled to the house with an entourage of Death Eaters. Lucius Malfoy among them, quite likely. Just because the house was destroyed and Voldemort "killed" doesn't mean the rest of the Death Eaters would have been. One of them could have easily grabbed the wand before any Ministry person showed up. Why? Save it for Voldemort, or just as a relic. ~PA

I believe that Wormtail got Voldemort's wand and used it instead of his own. Wormtails wand was left when he faked his own death and while some wizards do not need a wand, Pettigrew needed his. I believe the wand works on the same principle of their clothes re-appearing even though they left them behind when they transformed. After turning back into a human they are always dressed even though they lost their clothes when they turned into their respected animal.

Additional comment, to the one I posed above (can't exceed 2000 characters): When Sirius tracked down pettigrew, he may have killed the 13 muggles with his own wand or voldermorts (note that pettigrew didn't meet voldermort till the end of Harry's 3rd grade- about 12-13 years after voldermort mysterious disappearance). If pettirgrew didn't retrieve the wand for his master (Voldermort) when Sirius had tracked him down, then he would have done so straight afterwards and then hidden it, as I'm sure, he wouldn't have guessed Voldermort was really dead (this was probably on the very same day he died, or a few days after)- however, I'm sure he thought Voldermort was dead later on, thus deciding to reside in a wizarding house (the weeselys). But I'm sure, throughout this ordeal, he knew were voldermort wand was hidden. The ministry of magic aurors must have checked out the scene of the crime (Voldermort dissapearance) much later, as they would have been wary to approach it- anywhere between this time, Pettigrew would have surely retrieved his Voldermort's want from the Potters house. -Akz645 Since I don't have an account, I'll be stating my gamer Initials now, lol.

Out of all of these suggestions, I believe I have the answer: My answer is going to be based off the wiki answers (just about how sirius got into prison), which I had replied on (so I'm not plagiarizing). For you to understand, I will be going through a brief reminder as to how sirius went to prison insead of pettigrew. Sirius Black was sent to Azkaban because when Lily and James were going into hiding they decided on Sirius as their secret keeper however they changed at the last moment without telling anybody, including Dumbledore. Peter then betrayed Lily and James on the same night that Sirius decided to go check on him and after discovering Peter was gone he went straight to the Potter's house, which was of course destroyed. (At this point he gave Hagrid the motorbike telling him he wouldn't need it again, Hagrid then used it to deliver Harry to his aunt and uncle's). Sirius knew he would be blamed but he managed to track down Peter and he yelled out to the whole street (full of muggles) what Peter had done. Peter then cut off his finger, blasted the street apart killing thirteen muggles and turned into a rat making it look like Sirius had killed all the muggles as well as betrayed the Potter's. Dumbledore himself gave evidence that Sirius was the Potter's secret keeper.

I suppose he could have possessed some animal and hid it somewhere in the village himself. Assuming he figured out that he could do this within hours of it happening to him.

Not all of Voldemort's followers abandoned him after he disappeared - the Lestranges were not imprisoned until they tortured the Longbottoms, as they believed they may had information on Voldemort's whereabouts. It is unlikely Voldemort didn't tell any of the death eaters where he was going, since this was such a big event. It is likely he had some nearby, and after discovering he had been torn from his body, it was likely one retrieved the wand and kept it safe, in case of his return. The Lestranges could have easily placed it in one of the other death eater's possession, for example the Malfoys, who avoided prison time by saying that had been imperiused, ready to be returned should he ever arise.

Impossible to explain this is. The biggest plothole and the thing is, if JKR must cover this she has to rewrite the whole set of the novel

^ /agreed. No remotely believable solution exists for this.

^quirrel would of been the first person he could have gotten to do it for him, and that makes NO sense, b/c someone would have found it by then... wasn't dumbledore himself investigating voldemort's entire life, the ministry, hagrid, ANYONE! Secondly, peter doesn't make sense either, as sirius chased him down, and he didn't even have HIS OWN WAND after those years as scabbers. why in the h would you think he had voldy's wand. Obvious plot hole.

voldemort got his wand by making quirel get it or another previous victim that fell across his path

^Wrong, a rat...

Pettigrew is an Animagus that can turn in to a mouse. He could've easily sneaked in.

Pretty gaping plot hole considering the wand's importance to the plot. The ministry finding it and holding it for protection could have made sense and Voldy could have stolen it back later, but instead Peter "magically" (spoken ironically) has it after spending over a decade as a rat. Pretty obvious on the first read even. J.K. must have realized this one and ignored it

^ No, it isn't. DH clearly states that theFfidelius charm is broken, due to the death of those who it was cast upon. Direct evidence is that many people were able to see the house and write on the sign, even though we may safely assume that Peter Pettigrew didn't tell the entire Wizarding World where the house was.

The house is still under Fidelius.

Pettigrew might have gone back and collected it right away, once he heard that Voldemort had been destroyed. He was the only one, other than Voldemort himself, who knew that Harry Potter was being targeted that night; he may even have been hiding out nearby in his rat disguise, and actually witnessed the event, then went in to see what had happened. Finding Harry alive and Voldemort gone, he picked up his former master's wand in trembling fingers, hardly daring to believe what had happened... and then disapperated in a panic when other wizards began to arrive. It's not in the books, but it COULD have happened.

The Potter house was memorialized, so it's entirely possible that it was somehow missed. Pettigrew is the only means by which it could have been retrieved. It stands to reason that had the Ministry found it, it would have been destroyed or taken for protection by the Ministry. On that note, Ministry seems to do some shoddy work when it comes to investigations. Just sayin'

good point, i don't know...

V It may be the official answer, but that sounds like splitting hairs to cover a "whoopsie" to me.

False Memory Charm =/= Memory Charm. The scriptwriters for the movie, for whatever reason, decided that a False Memory Charm has the same incantation; however, JKR has said that they're two different spells.

Hermione modified her parents memories she didn't obliviate them. Acording to JKR (I know someone who wrote her) they are different.

Hermione never performed a Memory charm. She modified her parent's memories. They are two completely different things. A memory charm erases the memories that the caster chooses. When you Modify a memory, all you are doing is altering certain aspects of the memory. Also, she wouldn't have confunded them, because all that does is confuse the opponent momentarily.

she never did wipe her parent memory's because if she did she wouldn't have been able to find them again in Australia would she? there memory's would have been gone forever like professor Lockhart's was

hermione had performed a memory charm before, however, this was a complete memory wipe. you said that it must've been a powerful memory charm, but it was simply making them forget she was there, not know she existed. all the things she did, everywhere she went, they were simply forgotten

In the movie, Hermione used a memory charm on her parents, when in the book it doesn't confirm which spell Hermione used- it just says that she made them think that they didn't have a daughter, they had completely different names and wanted to go to Australia. That would take a completely different spell than just simply wiping the Death Eaters memory.

She confunded her parents to the point they though they were someone else, she hadn't used a memory charm before in the book. The movie used the wrong wording (obliviate).

Hermione a complected memory charm on her parents, she modified their memories to make them believe that they didn't even have a daughter! It wasn't a simple Obliviate! However in the movie that charm shown is Obliviate and thus the scene where she says she hasn't used it before has been left out!

She never used a memory charm on her parents, she just changed their memories

I was thinking about that one, and I'm glad someone mentioned it! It was bothering me...

Yeah, if she confunded her parents or something similar, that would not be a memory charm.

JK Rowling answered this. Changing someone's memory to make them think they are someone else is a different spell than completely wiping someone's memory. And no, Hermione did not make the death eater think he was someone else, she just wiped his memory.

^WTF are you talking about? making someone totally forget who they are sounds alot harder than just a basic memory wipe. In fact, Hermione probably did make the death eater think he was someone else, so he wouldn't be a threat anymore.

Actually, Hermione hasn't done a memory charm until she did it on the Death Eater. What she did on her parents wasn't a memory charm, because she didn't wipe their memories. She just made her parents think they were different people. They are two completely different things.

it's possible that hermione intended to say she never performed a memory charm on a wizard before (seeing as both her parents are muggles). maybe muggle minds are easier to alter

I don't get this either. Plot hole by JKR's faulty writing. This *cannot* be explained, unless Hermione forgot she used a complex memory charm to send her parents to Australia just days earlier. -__- unlikely

Lily*

It was when voldy tried to kill Harry, not lay, that he made the horcrux..

The horcrux was not under anyones control. When V created the horcruxes deliberately he was prepared. He had the item he wanted to store it in and had any necessary spells to encourage/force the horcruc to bind with what he wanted. The one that took up residence in Harry was under no one's control so it took the closest easiest place.

First of all I want to know how a shoe sole would latch to a living being. But seriously, Voldemort's soul latched on to Harry because it gave off a feeling of life. His blanket or rattle did not, obviously.

since thehorcrux was unintended, the soul part naturally goes to the only living thin.

i believe that you need to have the desire to want to make a horcrux to have your soul fragment put into something you specifically want it to. my opinion is when voldemort kills someone his soul breaks but does not enter anything. just stays in voldemort giving him broken soul. yet if he wants it in nagini or the locket or what have you then it would go in them. when he killed lilly and then failed to kill harry the soul entered harry as it couldnt return to voldemort. just a thought

You have to go through some horrible ritual to make a horcrux (apparantly the description to do it is going to be in the encyclopedia JKR is meant to me making) which is why wizards who have killed haven't got horcruxes. Voldemort killed so many people and he had already made too many horcruxes that his soul was pretty much on its last leg as it had been ripped into too many pieces. The rebounded killing curse destroyed Voldemorts body, but not his soul- but it couldn't just float around and because it was in pieces it couldn't 'move on' so it went onto the nearest living thing. He obviously hadn't done the horcrux ritual thing because he hadn't intended to. If he had- then it could have been a rattle or whatever.

To answer the question: "why isnt there people all over the world walking around as horcrux's because dark wizards kill all of the time not intending to make horcruxs".........I'd imagine this is a rare occasion where a dark wizard doesn't just kill somebody, but is killed himself by at that exact moment with his own killing curse. So you have an extremely powerful dark wizard capable of creating horcuxes (which not all can), AND who split his soul by using the killing curse to kill someone, AND who was killed at that exact same moment soul-splitting by his own reflected powerful curse, AND who already had other horcruxes in use tethering him to life instead of just killing him outright. I'm sure that combination of events was not particularly common in the annals of wizarding history.

His soul needed another host. And he would of had to have a specific object laid aside to make a horcrux but he hadn't at the time and it was an accidental horcrux. Remember his soul is broken. He lost the last piece and it needed somewhere else to live when he killed lily. But since there are no laws for the way hot fuzes work, you just have to let it be.

It could be to do with the prophecy, as Dumbledore explained. Harry was given the tools he needed to defeat Voldemort. So maybe that is the reason that his soul latched onto Harry's, to fulfil the prophecy and allow Harry to see into his mind, speak Parseltongue, etc etc

^^When the book says "Harry is the horcrux that Voldemort never meant to make." It means that he never meant to make HARRY into a horcrux. Not that he never meant to make another horcrux. As for the op, although a murder is required to make a horcrux, killing someone doesn't automatically create a horcrux. I imagine it takes a complex spell or ritual to do that. That's why there's not a bunch of people walking around as horcruxes. I think that Voldemort was planning to make a horcrux from Harry's death. But he only completed part of the ritual before he arrived at the house. Then after he "died" and a piece of his soul was freed (because of the possible ritual he did before hand, and he did kill Lilly and James so it would have still worked) the soul went into the closest living being because the second half of the spell/ritual wasn't completed, which is probably to direct the soul into an object of your choice. Though this is just my guess of what happened from what little we're told of horcruxes. We'll never know for sure because the creation of horcruxes was never explained to us in detail. But that doesn't make this scene a plot hole.

Because it's a story and Harry's the protagonist and Voldemort's the main antagonist. They need to be special. It would also be kinda lame if harry died and Ron and Hermione had to find Harry's binky in order to bring him back.

Voldemort couldn't have originally meant to make another Horcrux, it says that Harry was the horcrux that he had never meant to make, therefore he would not have created one because of an unfinished incantation or something. I think it had something to do with the love protection Lily placed on Harry when she died for him; when Voldemort tried to kill Harry, not only did the curse rebound, the force chipped off a piece of his soul and latched itself onto Harry. Because Voldemort never meant to make this Horcrux, the soul is not acclimated to a non-living "house", and frantically searches for the only living thing nearby: Harry. On the other hand, it may just be a plot hole/device.

it remains that this could be a plot device. However accepting this if we assume that something must be done to intend to make a horcrux it is a plot hole seeing as riddle planned to split his soul in seven or was it seven horcruxes? refer to slughorn memory reviewed by harry and dumbledore. if its six horcruxes then it is a plot hole he would not prepare to make another

^ this is highly likely, obviously wizards kill each other, does that mean everyone splits their soul when they kill someone? No. I hadn;t specifically envisioned it as such but I believe the Harry thing can be explained by the magic and protection of the sacrifice/ the fact that voldy may have been under some type of vow (unbreakable?) with snape as explained by a google search for said essay on snape

I imagined that there was some sort of foresight or planning necessary to create a horcrux, that the spell or ritual had already been done in preparation, and then when something went wrong, the piece of soul he had been planning to attach to something just sort of flew off and went to the only living thing because life is a soul's "native environment."

Since there are no real-life rules about how fragments of soul behave in different circumstances, I think that J.K. is at liberty to invent what they do when left to their own devices. There's a difference between a plot hole and a plot device.

^ask their mom she always latches onto things...

it just does

excactly whay i am saying, Voldemort killed more than just to make horcruxs, then where are the others....he used the muggle at the riddle house to create the "nagini" horcrux and the book tells is that he killed at least two others.....so where are the horcruxs from those two murders

It could be self-refilling, however the time with Kreacher, he knew he was going to leave him there so he filled it himself to make sure kreacher didn't take it out when he left.

its bloody magic.!!!!!

If it's magically refilling, why did Voldemort fill the cup when he left Kreacher on the island?

no, not really a plot hole... more a tiny detail that you can explain for yourself if you want to (magically refilling basin)

Definitely a plot hole

But Voldemort left Kreacher for dead. He was expecting him to die and was thus expecting an Inferior attack, so wouldn't he have expected the basin to refill itself? Why would he need to refill it if he thought Kreacher would die?

Maybe it resets itself once the inferi attack or the person drinking dies. Since Kreacher never died/ the inferi never attacked Voldemort had to refill it himself

If it is magically refilling, why did Voldemort need to fill it up himself the first time? Why couldn't he just leave it to fill for itself?

maybe its a magic refiling basin :)

It's quite possible that sometime after he returned to his full form, he could have re-filled the basin! Or even have a charm on the basin to refill on its own just like he put the charm on the goblet next to the basin to not hold water in any form!

Hmmm, I did not think about that, because at first I believed that Voldemort might have fixed the enchantment that, whenever the locket was back in place, it would fill up again after he did the test with Kreacher, but it makes no sense. Why he would do that for? Maybe after all the basin was meant to be filled up again after the intruder drinks the potion to protect the locket again?

clearly a plot hole, dumbledore had to drink the potion, furthermore Voldy himself turned to potion clear to see the bottom so it refilled after albus drunk it ....very good point

I agree with above. The potion weakens and dehydrates the drinker, but the amount needed in order to completely incapacitate a person might vary. Also, Voldemort would need the potion to refill completely within a very short time, in case another wizard came soon after the first wizard had drunk most or all of the potion. A trap that cannot reset itself would be of little use if he did not plan to check it periodically. (In other words, being able to tell if it had been tampered with was not the goal of the potion at all. Voldemort could vanish the potion to see that.) As for Kreacher, maybe he just meant Voldemort caused more potion to appear immediately, rather than guard the locket and wait for Kreacher to die, or leave the locket unguarded with Kreacher nearby.

You need to understand the Nature of the Potion before you call this a Plothole. The potion needs to be drunk, nothing else will empty it, it needs the Human sacrifce. This could also provide some evidence that it refils itself. Also there is the Sketchy House-Elf Magic, Kreacher could have beeen ordered to fill the basin back up.

Additonal comment, to the one I posted above: I doubt dumbledore knew that he was going to be invaded by deatheaters on that night, so he can't have been in a hurry. Therefore, giving him more time to think things through, and if hermoine can think of an idea like that in front of dementors and an attack from the ministry (that's huge amounts of pressure), I don't see how a more gifted and more intellectual teacher could not have. Also, I'm sure he thought the attack would hapeen from outside hogwards (penetrating the defence of hogsmeade, that's why he put aurors there), not from within the school. Also, that it wouldn't hapen at that specific time (when they went to the cave) because, he wanted snape to kill him without interference from the deatheaters- who would be attacking his school from within, which could cause a fataility amoung the students. His plan, was that the school wouldn't be endagered anymore and snape could flee the scene of the crime undetected (to report to voldermort), not that deatheaters would try to kill him off beforehand. -Akz

@The guy who mosted above me + others...- If that's the case, how would voldermort ever know if its been emptied? That's defintely a stupid idea. Regulus told kreature to replace it with a locket, correct? Why wouldn't he ask to also fill in a potion, harry didn't want to know the exact details, just about the locket! Note that kreature does tremble and go of speech, I'm sure, like Harry, kreature doesn't want to re-call the excact specfics of that dreadful day (especially since he was 'ordered' by regulus not be speak to anybody about that day, so he could have simple forgotten). Additionally, Hermoine was able to conjur up a 'fake locket' out of thin air (7th book, to replace umbridge locket), I don't understand why harry/dumbledore didn't think of that beforehand (that the potion might refill itself, with something else inside it). Dumbledore could have speculated, that in order for Voldermort to never suspect the locket to have gone missing, as he would eventually go looking for it (harry horcrux venture could take years, and voldermort could find out about 1 of them- which indeed did happen)- thus, should have given Harry a fake locket, if not also a fake potion. Weak writing by J.K rowling? Maybe....

I would imagine the potion just gets filled up when there is something to protect. Harry takes the locket out, and then the basin is empty. There is no reason to refill an empty basin if the purpose of the potion is to protect whatever lies in it, right??

Hmmm, kreture actually stops going into details about the cave after he says he saw regulus go into the water. Harry also didn't want to re-collect the awful memeroy of the cave. Regulus may very well gave given kreture a potion to refill the basin (something as strong as he could brew up, or bought). I mean kreture couldn't retell the story in much detail, as he was tramatised by the scene. Yes this is a plot-hole, but it is understandable as regulus may have came prepared with a potion, we can't we too sure- but we will have to make an assumption. Regulus would have gotten the logistic idea of the potion, through kreture desciption (maybe different/ weaker than voldermort orginial)- therefore dumbledore survived, or it just could be dumbledore survived and was able to do side along appartion through harry, because he was an exceptional wizard- either way, I don't think this is a major flaw in J.K rowling writing (compared to the, how did voldermort get his wand back, from the potters home).

Regulus wasn't killed by the potion at all, the potion merely weakened him and make him see things like it did to Dumbledore. He was killed by the inferi when they presumably dragged him under water.

voldermort must have put a spell to refill the potion after he tested it.

Regulus filled the basin back up before he died so it gives the illusion that the horcrux is still safe

For all we know when Voldermort refilled the basin he enchanted it to refill itself. Voldermort is certainly a powerful enough wizard to do so.

Regulus WAS killed by the potion. Sirius assumed that Regulus had been killed by Voldemort, but he never saw it happen (and actually, he specifically mentions that Regulus was probably killed by an underling, not Voldemort himself). Kreacher actually witnessed the event, and he was bound by the rules of the house-elf to speak the truth about it to Harry. Kreacher's account is the one to be believed.

Couple of things: 1) Regulus wasn't killed by the potion. Sirius tells us in book 5 that he was killed by Voldemort himself for trying to back out of being a Death Eater. 2) Kreacher was under the effects of the potion when he saw the basin fill up again. As we saw with Dumbledore, it greatly effects your mind, making you see things that weren't there (he saw his sister being killed again). How can we rely on Kreacher's version of how the basin was filled? 3) How do we know that Regulus didn't know what the potion was? Potions aren't a "Voldemort only" thing. Perhaps, upon Kreacher's return, he used that information and researched (just as he did to figure out Voldy was using horcruxes) and figured out what it was. It's not a plot hole. The explanation as to how and why the basin refilled itself wasn't relative to the over-all story, nor was it relative to Regulus' story so Jo didn't put in the books. If she explained every single little detain in the books, they would go on forever.

It obviously refills itself, seeing as there was potion in it when Voldemort was checking on his horcruxes near the end of the book.

I don't think it's a plot hole. Elf-magic isn't thesame as wizardmagic. When Harry asks Kreacher how he managed to get out of the cave, he said he did so because Regulus ordered him to. Harry doesn't understand, but Hermione does. House elfs have a different kind of magic. So it's possible that Regulus ordered Kreacher to do the exact same thing Voldemort did when he forced Kreacher to drink the potion. Plus, Kreacher doesn't get the chance to finish the entire story because Hermione tried to hug him. It's not a plot hole, there is no contradiction whatsoever.

The only resolution I can come up with here is that Kreacher may have been somewhat mistaken. He says that after he was forced to drink the potion, that Voldemort "put more potion into the bowl". But recall that at the time, Kreacher was suffering from the effects of the potion itself, which must have affected his perception of what was going on around him. He may have seen the bowl refill on its own, and simply assumed that Voldemort did it. It may also be that once Voldemort had tested the potion, he refilled the bowl and then cast a spell which would replenish the potion automatically from then on - something he wouldn't have wanted to do until the horcrux was actually in there, just in case it didn't work quite right. Neither explanation is directly supported by the books, but both are plausible.

Maybe Voldemort refilled it immediately because he didn't want the locket out there unprotected with Kreacher right beside the basin even though the basin would fill up automatically again. Or he just did it without any particular reason at all (like every little random action of a human doesn't need an explanation) again even though he knew it would fill up. Kreacher's memory and storytelling could be faulty too.

Voldemort never did know if someone had tampered with the basin, which was one of his mistakes. In fact, could Regulus have done the automatic refilling to ensure that Voldemort did not notice? I agree that it should be made clearer in the book, but then again, it's only a few people who need to know every detail about the books (myself included!).

I agree that this is a plot hole. The explanations offered do not make sense. Also, when Voldemort had Kreacher drink the potion the book clearly states that Voldemort filled the basin up again. It was not done automatically or by magic. When RAB goes back with Kreacher, and replaces the horcrux with the fake locket, there is no indication that the basin "magically" refilled. The same is true when Dumbledore drinks the potion. The basin doesn't magically refill. So, this is a plot hole, pure and simple. There should have been no potion in the basin when Dumbledore arrived long after Regulus drained the basin.

Guestb - that is a plausible explanation, but there is a flaw in the logic. If Voldemort charmed the basin to refill automatically after the "experiment" on Kreacher, how would Voldemort know if someone had tampered with the basin. Part of the trap in requiring intruders to drink the potion to get at the locket was the ability for Voldemort to know that someone had tampered with the basin as a result of its being now empty. And, if your theory is what happened, it should have been more specifically explained for us the readers because without such explanation, it is a huge plot hole.

Voldemort, being an immensly powerful wizard, could make the potion refill automatically. Kreacher was the first person to drink the potion. This was to test that it worked, so only after the "experiment" would the potion be charmed to refill automatically.

Kreacher does not state that any of those things happened when he tells his tale.

Perhaps Regulus was able to secret the ingredients and enchantments on the potion, revealing to Kreecher how to fill it up after drinking or to prepare before drinking - making it seem the same locket in case Voldemort came to check on his Horcrux, prolonging his ignorance of anyone else knowing of his Horcruxes, which he reveals his surprise to Harry in the 7th, even after finding the Marvolo Ring gone.

That doesn't work either. Kreacher's tale clearly states that Lord Voldemort actually refilled the basin himself after Kreacher drank the potion. It was not done automatically.

Magic basin that automatically fills with poison when you put something in/wait until a fullmoon/whatever?

Not a good explanation. First, Regulus would not know what the potion was before drinking it. Second, Kreacher does not tell Harry, Hermoine and Ron that he was instructed by Regulus to refill the basin nor does he state that he actually did so.

Well done guestB. It would have needed to look like nothing had changed, so he would have taught Kreacher how to make the poison to fill the basin.

MAGIC?!

Because then there would be no fourth book. It'd go: 'Hey, Harry, drink this, would you? From one dark-wizard chaser to another (potential) one...' OH **** IT'S VOLDEMORT! And Harry would be dead, having no dying boy to divert attention from himself. And the series would have ended.

Well the school was having the triwizard tournament anyway and Harry had to be on it because the whole book is about him and it just makes it more exciting that he survives all this and in the the cup is a portkey

Crouch Jr. never intended for anyone to find out that he was posing as Mad-Eye.

OR MAYBE YOU COULD ALL REALIZE THAT NO ONE KNEW THAT CROUCH JR. WAS REALLY MAD-EYE AND THAT HE SHOWS EXAMPLES OF BEING ABLE TO SECLUDE STUDENTS. I.E. NEVILLE AFTER SHOWING THE CLASS THE UNFORGIVABLE CURSES. Seriously it would not have been hard at all to "give harry detention" and make him write lines with a portkey quill or asked about him becoming an Auror??!?!?! COME ON PEOPLE. Are there only 12 year olds on here? Seriously? So many retarded comments....

You are forgetting that Dumbledore watches Harry 24/7. Need I say more? Seriously, I thought this page would make sense. All the things posted here are merely questions of people who didn't understand the series and didn't bother searching for canon answers. If you will be considerate enough to do the latter, you will actually find that JK has sensible answers to every HP question asked of her.

it would look much les suspicious

Yeah, JKR COULD have made the portkey some random object, like a book or something, but it would have made the GoF an amazingly stupid book, ruined the whole series, and whate would happen when some random kid decides they're really thirsty and a cup is right there, or that book on the shelf looks really interesting? All these loop holes are very stupid loop holes, and if you looked a little closer very easily explain. And some of the answers to these plot holes ate merely there because if JKR hadn't included them the stories would turn out completly different.

Crouch: hey Harry pass me that book Harry: okay *gets transported to graveyard* oh no, I'm in a random creepy graveyard for no reason. I should go back using the book portkey. That is what would have happened if Crouch hadn't put Harry in the TWT. As opposed to: Harry: look Cedric the triwizard cup! Let's grab it! *gets transported to creepy graveyard* wow, must be an extra part of the trial, let's stay and see what happens!

yeah i always saw this as Voldermort adding drama and intrigue to his return, setting harry up as a hero before murdering would make Voldermort look even more powerful than he was. when the plan in the cemetary failed he decided to tread more carefully afterwards and delay his public return

To the comment below, if it had ended just like that, people would start to wonder, where's the adventure, the drama, the thick spines!? Anyway it would be a VERY poor way to end The Goblet of Fire, not to mention, that it doesn't sound like J. K. Rowling AT ALL.

This is one of the things that bothered me about the whole series. Why go through all the trouble of getting Harry into the tournament, turning the cup into a teleporter, and helping Harry win the tournament? Why not just have Barty turn some other object into a teleporter (let's say a book), put it somewhere in his office, call Harry to his office, and casually say "Btw, can you pass me that book over there"? This made the whole plot of GOF pretty idiotic and unnecessary. And lol at the retards saying "Voldie's return was supposed to be a secret". WTF are you talking about? There would have been like a zillion ways of keeping it secret without going through all the trouble they went, like using the plan I just suggested >_> Added 1 year ago by guest Not even sorry this is a year later, but, Sorry - You think that you can do better than J.K Rowling? Good work, bro. YOU write a book, then tell someone else how to write. Good job, sport.

Some of the comments above are quite frustrating. Harry's not stupid and would not just be like 'oh yeah I'm dying for a cuppa' and take hold of a cup. Also, I agree with the comments saying that portkeys don't work in and out of Hogwarts unless Dumbledore authorises/creates them (he does this in OoP and apparates in HBP) therefore mad eye asking for a port key would set alarm bells ringing. Voldemort didn't want to have his return made public, therefore organising his return in the final and most deadly challenge of the TWT would be perfect- as it was already said that people died in the tournament. People would put both Harry and Cedrics deaths down to the horrors of the maze. And Voldemort thinks highly of himself- he'd want the death of Harry to be a momentous event in a graveyard with all his followers- not in a shed with wormtail there or anything.

Harry couldn't have died in the tasks because Barty Crouch Jr. made it so, he was helping him even when Harry didn't suspect! Secondly the reason that Harry had to go through the TWT could be that Voldemort needed time to contact his death eaters and start forming the little of his army again! Another reason Barty Crouch Jr. didn't just give Harry a portkey was, he possibly didn't want to blow his cover! besides if he had given Harry a random portkey and would have made Harry disappear, then everyone would know, and Dumbledore and the OOTP would be on alert! it had to be done discreetly and was to look like an accident! Voldemort's plan was to not notify the ministry of his return, which worked beautifully, just as he had planned!

PERHAPS the enchantments that dont allow anyone to apparate/disapparate from the castle ALSO dont allow anyone to use a portkey. And some of the enchantments were lifted on the maze, for some reason or another...

Voldemort was very materialistic. Obviously he would not make a paper cup or a tee bag a horcrux unlike at the triwizard tournament. Those port keys were ment to be hidden and things juggles wouldn't want.

Most people seem to forget that "Mad-eye" is already going to be the likely suspect because Dumbledore sent him to check on the cup. When someone suddenly disappears you always look at the last person to interact with them or interact with the means of their disappearance.

This was the biggest plot hole for me in the series. The entire 4th book seemed irrelevant because Crouch could have sent Harry to Voldemort in the first 100 pages. The entire drama of the Triwizard tournament was exciting reading but then when we saw why Harry was in it, it made no sense. In fact going through with the whole show ran the risk of so many things upsetting Voldemort's plans as Harry could have been easily killed or seriously injured in any of the tasks, rendering Voldemort's return indefinitely postponed.

Voldemort planned on returning Harry's corpse to the arena, making it look like Harry had died in the competition; no one would then have ever discovered him or Crouch Jr. The point was for Harry to be isolated in a deadly environment, get whisked away by the portkey for a few minutes, and get sent back dead.

People are saying the TWC was supposed to be a portkey to the beginning of the maze. I don't remember this being mentioned. I remembered Harry being really surprised by the fact it was a poertkey before he knew where it was taking him. I don't remember anyone saying it was supposed to be a portkey at all.

First of all LOL!!! "Hey Harry take a drink out of this giant cup" honestly though it does confuse me. I mean the whole thing with GoF is really interesting, so I guess it was just to make for a good story. But seriously, you could like make some object a portkey, have Harry touch it whilst in Moody's office and be like, "what, no I didn't see Harry!" and by the time people got around to thinking "hmmmm what happened to Harry?" voldys already killed him. I mean honestly the school won't go into a panic about Harry being missing for like an hour which is plenty of time for him to get killed. I mean if Crouch can manage to trick the GoF, which is some powerful Magic, surely he can get around the whole "no apparating in the castle" thing

A portkey can only go off at a specific designated time, and needs to be approved by the Ministry, which I presume would take a while. How can Moody-Crouch be sure when he establishes it that Harry will be in the exact right place when it is set to leave? He can't know that he'll have Harry in his office, alone, at that moment. One could argue that when Harry touches the Triwizard's Cup it left at his touch, but Moody was manipulating that task, wasn't he? Who's to say he couldn't ensure that Harry would have grasped it by the time it was about to leave? Moody-Crouch had been working up to this moment for a good deal of his life. I doubt there's any other possibility he could have overlooked. And anyway, wouldn't that idea have appealed to Voldemort--valiant Potter, the Triwizard champion, suddenly being flung to his death.

Dumbledore is the only person who has the ability to create a portkey within Hogwarts. I suspect only the headmaster has the ability but they never mentioned any other headmasters doing so. Also they did mention that Dumbledore had "Moody" place the cup because he was trusted, so he must have granted Moody access to make the portkey. Also when Hogwarts students visit Hogsmead there are extra protections placed, yes people are allowed to disaperate there but I doubt Harry didn't have aurors following him or friends of Dumbledore whenever he was there.

Like Moody/Crouch said, he could make it look like an accident if Harry died in the Tri-Wizard Tournament, because people have before. If Moody/Crouch handed Harry a Port-Key, it would have been more obvious someone was trying to kill Harry Potter. Ya know how Fleur was being pushed under the hedges during the maze? It would have taken them MONTHS to find her under there, and she would have been dead. It was so easy for Moody/Crouch to make it look like Harry died in the TWT, but on a regular day at school...not so much.

Voldemort wanted to show the world that there was nothing special about Harry, that Harry didn't have extra-ordinary powers that enabled the downfall of him; if Harry had have been taken easily such as you's have said about the office, etc.. Voldemort would have killed him on the spot. He also had to have an exact time for his plan to go right, he had to make sure that nothing went wrong, the triwizard tournment enabled Barty Crouch Jr to enter Hogwarts posing as Mad Eye, but why go to that bother with out putting Harry through a few near death experiences, making Harry fear each day as it came; use some empathy and think like Voldemort, he would obviously want Harry to suffer for what he had done to him.

Maybe the potion that Voldemort used to return to his body needed several months to be ready or something, and so it coincided with the end of the Tournament. Like Felix Felicis takes 6 months to be ready etc.

harry would win because fake moody would make it so. Harry would need to disappear in a way that doesn't connect him to barty crouch jr., a task that did not work but...

Another hole: why does the portkey go back to Hogwarts just as Harry grabs it?

he would have to get approval from the MoM and they would be suspicious of moody using a port key at hogwarts

^3 The comment three above is pristine but to add my opinion i think ^ lord V's under lining fear that harry is more powerful went into the planing so the use of the TWT was also to exhaust harry physicality and psychologically so their could be chance of his victory.

Portkeys are able to work In hogwarts

Also if harry touches a book, discovers it being a portkey and ending up at a graveyard he probably would be a little suspicious and maybe touch it again to go back. Whilst in the book he thought it was a part of the tournament at first.

The above comment is the most correct. The other explanations are part of it too though. Although it is impossible to make a portkey in Hogwarts (unless you are Dumbledore), there may have been other ways of getting Harry to Voldemort, like getting him while he was in Hogsmead and then disapperating. However, I think the factors like keeping his return secret, making Harry's death look like an accident, and Voldemort needing to use Harry only after he was fully prepared to transform- all make the Triwizard Cup the best plan to get Harry out of Hogwarts. Basically, this is not a plot hole, it just requires thinking.

Apparition is blocked in Hogwarts - portkeys likely are too, for the most part. When they were worried about Sirius Black getting in, no one seemed concerned about him using a portkey, so it likely isn't possible. An exception was made for the Triwizard Cup, which was obviously supposed to return the winner to the maze entrance. It was likely much easier for Barty Crouch to tweak this portkey which was already geared to work at Hogwarts, than it would have been for him to create a new portkey and circumvent those protections.

Harry's death needed to happen without anyone realising that he had been murdered. How else would you abduct and kill Harry Potter without it raising suspicion?

Well, i wouldn't like that part if it isn't like THAT, get it? There could be so much easier ways to bring Harry to the graveyard where Voldy waits, but that portkey thing transports Harry to the graveyard is 'more dramatic'!! I love JK's creativity.

Wormtail was busy preparing Voldy for the transformation! They couldnt have Harry arriving too early now could they?

yes like the comment above, voldemort wanted everyone to think that harry died in the TWT. Dumbledore would get really suspicious so he will investigate and find out if harry just disappeared suddenly. and the last thing voldemort want is dumbledore finding out about his return. this plus voldemort's love for grandeur. think about how he would feel the satisfaction when he successfully put together this grand scheme of him which enabled his return to power.

I know there are other ways it could have been a secret, but it would have been easier to find out who Harry had been with, when he was last seen etc. The fact that they did it in the maze meant that everybody would know that Harry disappeared in there, but there could have been a number of reasons and nobody would have known where he went (except Crouch, obviously).

This is one of the things that bothered me about the whole series. Why go through all the trouble of getting Harry into the tournament, turning the cup into a teleporter, and helping Harry win the tournament? Why not just have Barty turn some other object into a teleporter (let's say a book), put it somewhere in his office, call Harry to his office, and casually say "Btw, can you pass me that book over there"? This made the whole plot of GOF pretty idiotic and unnecessary. And lol at the retards saying "Voldie's return was supposed to be a secret". WTF are you talking about? There would have been like a zillion ways of keeping it secret without going through all the trouble they went, like using the plan I just suggested >_>

well one, i think harry would be VERY suspicious of a giant cup (but i see your point) and two, Moody (crouch) recommended quidditch to harry, which led to accio, and Moody impiriused Krum who got rid of fleur and himself. Harry saved Cedric twice, so Cedric could have been gone too. Cedric could have been a problem though. and something could have gone horribly wrong in the lake task, and i don't know how moody (crouch) would have prevented that.

No one was supposed to know about Voldemort returning, so there would be no resistance.

Well with all the big crowd around the maze it would be handy for the Death Eaters to go to Hogwarts via the cup and torture the nearby crowds.

It had to seem to be an accident. No one other than death eaters were supposed to know about Voldemorts return.

Perhaps it was the grandeur of Harry being in the TWT... Voldemort does love things of high significance and power.

I don't think that he chose to be in Gryffindor, that was a Harry thing alone. But I do think that Pettigrew was brave and loyal, like a Gryffindor should be. At times, yes, he was cowardly, but Harry was also, sometimes. Pettigrew still was loyal and fought against the good guys. And Slytherins aren't necessarily BAD, they're cunning, just like the books say, so Pettigrew SHOULDN'T be in Slytherin since he's not one bit cunning. Pettigrew should be in Gryffindor because he was courageous enough each day to live through Voldy's taunts and to fight for what he wanted.

The hat sorts according to one's potential. Peter had to potential to be a Gryffindor he just chose another path when he got older. Not everyone in Slytherin is bad they are cunning and ambitious. Peter was loyal,he had to have some degree of bravery in order to be a marauder. I

The hat takes your choice in to account as it did with Harry. Pettigrew must have wanted to be in Griffindor with his friends and so told the hat to put him in there

Just because you are afraid, doesn’t mean you aren’t brave. Courage is feeling fear, but continuing onwards. How can you be courageous if you aren’t really afraid of anything? Plus, every student has the ability to choose what House they want to be in, for example, in Harry’s case. He chose to be in Gryffindor. That’s a big thing in the books: It is YOUR decision, always. The hat just makes suggestions.

To the two people who said Neville and Ron were soted into Gryffindor because their parents were brave - I think you are extremely, EXTREMELY wrong, that you couldn't be farther from the truth. Ron and Neville were both very, very brave. Ancestory has nothing to do with it.

Though Pettigrew should have gone into Hufflepuff or Slytherin I think, he did hesitate to kill Harry. He probably didn't know what would happen if he did though, but if Voldemort HAD told him what would happen, only a true Gryffindor wouldn't have killed Harry.

Yeah, he should have been sorted into Hufflepuff

He was VERY loyal to Voldemort, though I suppose it was out of fear. I mean, he cut off his own hand.

I don't know why a lot of people assume that Hufflepuff would have suited him. Hufflepuff's are known for their loyalty, and Pettigrew wasn't loyal to his friends. He wasn't loyal to the Death Eaters or Voldemort either. He stayed with them out of fear. I imagine when he joined up, he did it because he was worried the Order would lose in the end so he wanted to be on the side that would most protect him. If you'll remember, it was a hufflepuff who stood up first to say that they wanted to stay and fight in book 7. I don't know what house he would belong to, to be honest. Gryffindor and hufflepuf don't suit him, he wasn't smart enough to be a ravenclaw and somehow I can't see him as a Slytherin either. Only thing I can agree on is that he asked to be a gryffindor.

Apologies, this was written over a beer. I meant Harry chose to be in Gryffindor, not slytherin. And pettigrew chose to be in gryffindor

As Dumbledore points out to Harry, (when Harry notes he can do all the things that Voldemort can do (I.e parseltongue, and with the fact the hat initially went to place him in slytherin, making him stress that he could become a dark wizard) he tells Harry that it is the CHOICES that make us who we are. Harry CHOSE to be in slytherin, and throughout the rest of the books demonstrated choices that showed who he was, and his character. The hat has no way of knowing what choices pettigrew might make later in life, just his potential to do things. Pettigrew could have been ambitious, courageous, and forceful in choosing grudgingly (much like Harry) but then he made his choices. Also the sorting hat in no way proclaims to be a 'beacon' fir bad wizards, as in it has no obligation or it seems desire to alert 'good' wizards to those it sees as 'bad', purely because it cannot see the future, merely the potential.

Could it possibly be because the sorting hat takes what you want into consideration? Harry specifically says that to Albus in "19 Years Later."

it isn't the Hat's place to judge, he is merely their to sort. working on this bases, the reason Peter was in Gryffindor could be simply he had no where TO go and asked to be in Gryffindor. he's not loyal and hardworking like a Hufflepuff. he's not cunning and ambitious like a slytherin, he's not smart like a Ravenclaw and he's not brave like a Gryffindor. so he asked to be in Gryffindor (because of his mother's pressure I'm assuming.

As other people (and Dumbledore) have said before me, people change over time. It's quite possible Pettigrew had the necessary traits to be sorted into Gryffindor in his first year at Hogwarts, but developed less desirable traits as time went on. Snape is a prime example of this: he was sorted into Slytherin when he was eleven, yet exemplified everything it means to be a Gryffindor at the time of his death.

The hat doesn't admit to making mistakes, but it does. This is probably one of them.

This is really simple if you think about it. The truth is that people change over time or possibly Peter felt diffently later. The sorting hat cannot tell the future no matter how powerful it is. While doing research into sorting you will find that only a worthy gryffindor would be able to pull the sword out of the sorting hat, I'm sure Peter would never be allowed to do so. But the saying "worthy" states that they're may be those that aren't quite as worthy. Not to mention as I said before, people change. Just because Draco was sorted into slytherin did not mean he became bad in the end, he seen the truth and became good. Peter was scared and worried and probably for tortured to gain information. Most death eaters are scared. It all goes into the fact that there is good and evil in everyone. Are choices make us who we are

1. Sorting hat takes your desires into consideration, so if Pettigrew *really* didn't want to be in Hufflepuff, Hat likely asked him which house he preferred. Perhaps he was brave in his first year. Who knows? 2. As far as I'm concerned, James Potter and Sirius Black SHOULD have both been in Slytherin. They were bullies, just like Goyle and Crabbe (only more charismatic). Both film and book canon paint them as bullies to Snape when they were children/at Hogwarts. The only one of the Marauders who I think deserved to be in Gryffindor was Lupin. 3. Did anyone else notice during Snape's last scene from the movie (Hallows 2) there was a Gryffindor scarf hanging in the boathouse ~just~ behind him? :)

If you remember the first book, nobody would believe Longbottom could have the required qualities to be in Gryffindor. Maybe the hat sees what is inside, but remember that the main message of Harry Potter series is that we are what we decide to be. So probably Pettigrew was just like Longbottom, but he ended to be very different from what he was expected to be.

I wrote the comment 8th down that said he was sort of brave in his own way. I hate Pettigrew. Don't get me wrong. But the elimination, I think, worked better than the bravery explanation. You say he would've made a better Hufflepuff? What's the main Hufflepuff trait? Loyalty. Oh, yeah, no one's more loyal than the scum who trades his friend's life for personal benefit. He's not exceptionally brave. Not really. But there are other Gryffindors who don't strike me as being extremely courageous. I mean, bravery isn't always a defining trait in a person. Someone can be brave but do some cowardly things. I think he desperately wanted to be brave, but was more concerned with what could better and elongate his life than what was right. The word "brave" doesn't constitute doing what is right. Voldemort is brave (to a certain extent), but I certainly can't see him being a Gryffindor. Also, he prized bravery. He practically hero-worshipped the Marauders. And people can change. He could have been braver when he was younger. Think of Snape; he went from being a deceitful, petty, jealous fool to the noble man he proved himself to be. James certainly acted like an 'arrogant toerag'. But he wasn't, not really. Sorry if this is kind of confusing. I have a lot of logic that I'm trying to dump on you.

@Comment above... Yeah well, hes telling snape that, not Pettigrew + I already know desires are a main factor with sorting. Pettigrew is just a pathetic, with no real desires or attibutes. Therefore he should have been in hufflepuff. If you want to retort this idea, please back up with related proof, not random quotes.

"you are a far braver man by far than karkoroff sometimes i think we sort to early' not an exact quote but there you go

LOL! The person always agreeing with the comment right above is clearly the same person. Not many people reply that close to each other, as this isn't a much visited website. “The Pot Hole in Kreacher's Tale (Deathly Hallows)”- On that as well, which further proves my accusation (sorry if I’m wrong, but hey, I’m just stating my opinion out there). Anyways, there is no exact proof that he had made friends of any kind in the train (as I have explained above). It was just Sirius and James (along with Snape and Lily). So you can not presume that he wanted to be with his non-made friends (yet). As explained above, attribute wise he is a Hufflepuff. However, he may have been just as confused as Harry as to which house to be sorted into (Harry didn't mind any house except Slytherin). The only two explanations I can think of is, as somebody stated above, Gryffindor is conveyed as the house of 'good' as opposed to 'evil' being Slytherin. So, Pettirgrew might have been scared of Slytherin so he chose to be in the house of 'good' were he won't be bullied. He may have desired to be in a house which consistent of the attributes of brave and incoherently strength- he wanted to find a 'good' and 'strong' house to which he could rely on. Throughout the book, it never, ever states that he wanted to be brave! So please, stop making assumptions with absolutely no proof. -AKZ

doesnt it say sumwhere that the sorting hat will listen to you if you really want to go in2 a house... like you can pretty much choose anyway? he probably just wanted to be with his m8s... i think its awkward how theres a 'best' house - gryffindor, and an obviously evil house that makes all the evil wizards, like shouldnt they put some early childhood education scheme in place for slytherins teaching the first years not to be evil?

^ this is what I believe is correct too. It is very possible Pettigrew was so desperate to be brave and courageous and heroic that the sorting hat saw this and put him into Gryffindor. As Harry specifically 'requested' not to be in Slytherin, Pettigrew could have been wishing for Gryffindor. The sorting hat looks at desires and wishes of the person it is sorting, not necessarily their actual qualities. This makes sense as all students are sorted at the age of 11 or 12, when we are not really sure who we are and what we want to be.

Takes choice into consideration. Come on now thats in the 2nd Book.

@The two guests above me- Contradictory to what you just said, I believe you are mistaken between bravery/ shivery and plain crowdedness/ saving your own skin. You could claim that Pettigrew traits are "brave" when you can quite easily say they are ‘great’, but being a "coward" is the exact opposite trait of a Gryffindor. Pettigrew work is far from intelligent (deducting Ravenclaw from the equation) and he’s not "evil" or an exceptionally great wizard for Slitherin. Therefore, through the process of "elimination" as you state, the only house to except "the rest", I believe he should have been sorted into Huffllepuff. Gryffindor never run away, this is further shown when the most amount of people stay for the battle of Hogwarts. However, less people stayed in Hufflepuff in comparison to Gryffindor. Therefore, loyalty and bravery are more purposeful for a trait of Gryffindor. As I stated above, he is much more of a coward then loyal, and he is unexceptional- therefore through the process of deduction/elimination; I believe he should have been in Hufflepuff. Also, I'm sure friendship would have rubbed off other Hufflepuff’s towards him- he would have no reason to betray them or need to be brave at all within Hufflepuff. -AKZ

According to Minerva McGonagall, all four of the houses have produced exceptional witches and wizards in their time, but due to Helga Hufflepuff's policy of accepting any student and its usually poor performance in the House Cup, Hufflepuff is often thought of as the place where students are sorted when they don't have any of the qualities of the other three houses, which have more defined attributes. Perhaps as a consequence of the broad principles of acceptance upon which it is founded, Hufflepuff has been stereotyped as the house of the unexceptional (or, more unkindly, as "a lot o' duffers"). This also corresponds with the Sorting Hat's song where it states: "Dear Hufflepuff, she took the rest and taught them all she knew." -AKZ

^ that is a really really good point about the process of elimination and how even in his weak backbone he did have a lot of bravery to pursue the things he did, I agree with your opinions and like your explanation

I think there was a side to Peter few others ever saw, one that he probably didn't even realize he had, but the hat did. If you analyze his actions, there is a sort of bravery. He's brave enough to go and befriend the Marauders when he was clearly not at their level, he was brave enough to go to Voldemort and be prepared to face their wrath if it didn't succeed. He was brave enough to orchestrate a whole scene showing Sirius as a murderer, brave enough to feign his own death, determined enough to stay a rat for years. He was brave enough to undergo the transformation into an Animagus for his friend, though it was obviously much harder for him then for the others. And it can't have been a fun experience being a tiny rat in a room with a rampaging werewolf, a dog, and a stag. Some of his manipulativeness is sort of Slytherin-esque, but I don't think he was clever or "evil" enough for that house. He's obviously not a Hufflepuff. Contradictory to what everyone seems to think, they aren't just leftovers. Hufflepuffs are very loyal--can't say that about Wormtail, now can you?--and accepting. He's not smart enough for Ravenclaw, that's for sure. So, by process of elimination and looking further into his actions, I would conclude that he's a Gryffindor, yeah.

For the Patel twins, they could have been muggle borns, plus one was smarter than the other, even with idential twins this happens. E.G. Zack and Cody (disney channel show)- one is braver, one is smarter by far. Hmm, Snape family was also in syltherin + he wanted to be in slytherin = that's he got into slytherin (bestowing the better judgement of the hat redundant). The choices you decide are the biggest factor in sorting. Like I just said, Sirius detested his family and he implied to James (on the train) "maybe I'll break the tradition". I just don't see how Pettigre would know which house he would want to be sorted into. In my opinion his he's way to useless, so he should have been in hufflepuff, J.K rowling doesn't state in any way, that he should have EVER been in gryfindoor. Although, she does state (indirectly) many factors why he should NOT be in gryfindoor. P.S= Why did you menstion Sirius mirror, that he gave to Harry? I know its not a plot hole, I wrote a whole article above stating why it is not a plot hole LOL.

Ok, which House your parents/family are/were in has no effect whatsoever on which House you are sorted into (the Patil twins are in two different Houses, Gryffindor & Ravenclaw, & Sirius was the first in his family to be in Gryffindor after generations of Slytherins!). There's a part in book 7 where Dumbledore says to Snape, "Sometimes I think we Sort too soon...", as in some people end up in Houses when they would be better suited to other Houses (in this case implying that Snape would have been better suited to Gryffindor, as Dumbledore says this after Snape says, "I am not such a coward as that."). So personally, I think it's that simple & not a pothole at all. (Nor is the thing about Harry's magic mirror, that is all perfectly explained in the books. Most of these things are not potholes if you'd only read the books a bunch of times.)

"I mean Nevelive, had the blood of 2 brave parents (ron was sorted into gryfindoor for the same reason, because of inhertiage). Pettigrew as far as we know, his hertiage has never been stated, we have no idea who are his parents." Sirius Black did state the he was always a cowards, and he always stayed with the people who were the toughest- therefore James was no longer considered to be the strongest, so he switched his allegiance (Pharaphrased). Therefore, I'm guessing he was always a coward- also in the 7th book, harry see's Pettigrew being overwhelmed by the fact that he was friends with James, Sirius and Lupin. Where did they say in the 3rd book, that he was similar to Neville? Hmm valid point there, that he could have matured into a cowards, contrary to Neville becoming brave. Also, Dumbledore saying the the sorting hat might sort too early (2nd book). Conversely, Pettigrew did not know sirius and james in the train (wasn't with them- in snape memory). Therefore, he couldn't have known which house he wanted to belong to, as he didn't know who was the strongest (which person he could depend on).

Perhaps Peter was different when he was in first year. The earliest we see of him when he is in fifth year in Snape's memory and at that point he doesn't seem very disloyal or overly cowardly. These negative traits might only have been his defining traits as he matured over the years. The teachers also compare him to Neville in the third book but I can't quite remember exactly what they say that could either refute or reject my suggestion

Additonal comment to the one posted above: I mean, this is a plothole, if pettigrew was in hufflepuff, james and lily would never had their fedelious charm broken- leading to arry not having a scar- leadin gto the prohecy not being created about him etc. So pettigrew being in gryffindor is key. In my opnion, J.K rowling should have spent more time thinking about pettigrew and as to why he was sorted into gryffindor. Please do reply back, and give me some feedback as to what you think :) Please do mind my grammer mistakes, I couldn't be asked to read it back :P

hmmmmm, OK. Many people have given reasons as to why he was sorted in to it, and I would like to state they are all wrong (unless proven otherwise). Did pettigrew even know James potter before he was sorted? If i recall, it was sirus and james talking alongisde lily and snape. NO PETTIGREW. Loyaliy can be shown in many forms, but when pettigrew owed his life to harry, I do not believe this be loyality. I mean, owing somebody and loyality are 2 different things. I mean, if you owed somebody money, it wouldn't mean you are loyal if you pay them back, it just means you are fuffling your in-depth. It makes you 'even' with the other person. I can understand if pettigrew never, but he has remorse- he isn't a bad guy, but that still doesn't make him loyal- because he does betray them many more times (just hesitating and showing a sign of remorse, meant betraying voldermort- which got him killed lol). He is much more suited for hufflepuff. I mean nevelive, had the blood of 2 brave parents (ron was sorted into gryfindoor for the same reason, because of inhertiage). Pettigrew as far as we know, his hertiage has never been stated, we have no idea who are his parents. For me, I just believe this is a miscalcuation on J.K rowling part- she never was good at maths. I mean she states in a interview, that she thought there should be many thousands of students within hogwards (and states it is the only school within britain- britain population is millions). In all fairness it is the best school, as it is under the best head master (best wizard in his generation) dumbledore (parahrased from hagrid, and the choclate frog card- and obviously we all know this- through conclusive information given to us about dumbledore greatness).

I ask that same question to myself all the time ¬_¬. Could anybody please explain this?

Aidditionaly, Harry did use the map in his dormitory. How could he not notice Peter Pettigrew?

Percy gave Ron Scabbers in his 3rd year. And they found out he was Pettigrew in his 3rd year. What?D'you expect Fred and George to be keeping an eye on Ron at all times!

Also Scabbers is not always around

Do you actually think Fred and Goerge usedthe map to "keep an ey on Ron". They used it for secret passageways and to see where the teachers were. Besides the map isn't very big. It shows ALL of the students at Hogwarts, most of the names must be very close anyway. Fred and George can't remember who Ron's friends are and who is in Gryffindor.

Quote: " I might be wrong but I think Scabbers was genuinely a rat for years and then he died and Petter Pettigrew replaced himself as 'Scabbers'. That's what I thought anyway and I thought that was explained in Book 3." Umm, no, not at all... it explains in Book 3 that Percy got Scabbers years ago and he was already missing one finger. Scabbers was always Peter Pettigrew, there was never a real rat named Scabbers. I always assumed that they either didn't care enough or use the map enough to notice. I also assumed that they used the map more for finding hidden entrances to the castle than creeping on people. Furthermore, think of how many students and teachers there are at Hogwarts (not to mention ghosts, house elves, etc) how likely do you think it would be that in that rare offchance that Fred and George decided to creep on their brother, he was by himself so they only saw two small dots? Most of the time, I'm sure he was with a few people, and they most likely wouldn't bother to read every name around him.

It's is possible that Fred and George didnt know who Peter Pettigrew was as the map refers to it's creators in their animagus form, Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs.

Who's to say they didn't know who Pettigrew was and simply thought he was a friend of Ron's? I'm sure they didn't care ALL THAT much, and seeing another name on the map that they didn't recognize probably wasn't to foreign of an experience.

I might be wrong but I think Scabbers was genuinely a rat for years and then he died and Petter Pettigrew replaced himself as 'Scabbers'. That's what I thought anyway and I thought that was explained in Book 3.

wasn't Scabbers running away all the time?

I don't think J.K. the books say WHEN the twins first learned how to operate the map? That could be the answer to why they didn't notice Pettigrew when Percy still had Scabbers. Why they never noticed him around Ron? They didn't care about Ron I suppose.

Fred and George would have used the map for trouble making, not people watching. They really wouldn't care where Ron was, they would be more interested in where Filch and Mrs Norris were so they could use the secret passages. Harry noticed him because a)it was at night and he was one of the only people moving and b)it was a name that was in his head at the time.

to the comment about the number of students, it's a little bit iffy, but it's not necessary for J.K to name every single person in their year, they are simply the ones in Harry's dorm, and several y of the most common yearmates he associates with. And also, it's possible that the twins might have only had the map for even a minimum of a year before they ended up giving it to Harry. And Peter Pettigrew, by that time, was not a commonly referrred to name, so it's possible they didn't recognise it.

It was confiscated by filch before harry went there. Remember?

Umm they had even longer than Ron's time at school to have noticed Peter. You forget, Scabbers belonged to Percy previously. They had from whenever they nicked the map in their 1st year to the end of the year and all of their 2nd year to notice. And Percy was one of their favorite targets.

But there aren't thousands of students at Hogwarts. In Harry's year, there are 4 other male Gryffindor students (Ron, Neville, Dean and Seamus). That tells us that the total counts of students in a year should be about 40, and the total amount adding up to somewhere around 280. I agree, this is just a plot hole.

Seeing as there are possibly thousands of students at Hogwarts, it's easy to assume Peter Pettigrew got lost in the crowd, especially as Fred and George weren't specifically looking for him. If they did decide to check up on Ron on the map (but why bother, seeing as they could check up on him in person in the Common Room?) they would assume Peter Pettigrew was another student. Who knows the names of all the students two years below them? Harry, of course, would have noticed the name because it was on his mind, but the connection was not made to Scabbers because the rat was conveniently lost and the map conveniently confiscated for appropriate lengths of time.

Of course Mr. Weasley didn't know what a plumber was! Why would wizards need to hire a plumber?

You do realise the the Basilisk is probably A LOT larger than regular pipes nowadays, right? This implies that the plumbing is magical. The pipes could also have been added at a later date, it wouldn't be to hard CONSIDERING IT'S A SCHOOL DEDICATED TO MAGIC.

Plumbing is not necessarily mechanical could have been magical. Also note the ancient romans had baths with hot running water and flush toilets, the Minoans had some early plumbing as did the Chinese..

Its magic! They can do what ever they want!

It's not exactly very advanced plumbing. There's a chance that the drains and pipes existed before hand in a MAGIC CASTLE, but the plumbing closer to the surface was added later on.

Are we really going to pretend that indoor plumbing, whether it hadn't existed in the time frame or not, is unrealistic when we are talking about books that have wizards who cast spells and can transport themselves to a location of their choosing with a mere thought?

A wizard did it

The Chamber of Secrets was build under the school. It's quite possible that as the school modified and pipes added, the chamber connected itself to the pipes. Much like The Labyrinth in the Greek Mythology, it could have grown on its own accord to fit the growing size of the Basilisk as well as any changes in the castle! Salazar Slytherin was a powerful wizard, he could have bewitched the chamber as such!

No its not!

This confuses me too. Chamber of Secrets *clearly* shows that wizards use muggle-like plumbing systems. However at the beginning of OotP, Mr. Weasley doesn't know what a plumber is. Personally I assumed sinks and showers would simply create water, like the aguamenti spell, without the use of pipes, and a toliet would be like a vanishing bowl, where the contents would just disappear. However, then the wizards wouldn't use pipes, which would have created a major pothole in CoS

magical world is behind and ahead of muggles in different ways salizare slytherine planned this chamber

The Minoans and romans had indoor plumbing even 1700 years ago. It wouldn't be the same as modern plumbing, but I'm sure wizards wouldn't have forgotten it like muggles did.

The Chamber of Secrets was built under the school, not in it. It was probably concealed by magic and they did not come across it when bathrooms were later added to the castle. It was probably just the way things ended up working out that the basilisk could get around through the plumbing.

None of this is directly supported by the books, but it is plausible: In lieu of a modern bathroom, suppose that Slytherin had constructed his chamber entrance in a "garderobe" which was essentially the restroom in ancient castles, basically a bench with a hold that led into a cesspit. It's not unreasonable to think that there may have been some kind of well in the room where one could draw up water with which to wash, and that's where he put the actual entrance, carving a snake into the bucket to mark its spot. Over time, the garderobe was remodeled several times to bring it up-to-date (preserving historical architecture is fine and good, but people like modern bathroom facilities!). Remember that this isn't just some door that one could smash through; it's a magically concealed entrance. Tearing up the floors wouldn't reveal the Chamber of Secrets. But each time the room was remodeled, the entrance would re-establish itself in context. Sometime in the late 17th century, perhaps they replaced the well with a fountain, and the snake appeared on one of the fountainheads (which never worked). Then, they replaced the fountain with modern sinks, and the snake appeared on a faucet. The entrance, and the snake that marks it, remains no matter how they remodel the room. Like I said, unsupported by the books, but it sounds like the sort of thing that would happen in Harry Potter's world.

I remember reading that indoor plumbing existed more than a thousand years ago.

This creates all sorts of possibilities. Could Salazar Slytherin have been the first person to develop indoor plumbing?!

the idea of having actual plumbing running through the walls of a thousand year old magical castle is laughable anyway on multiple levels. If you could do magic, would you train as a plumber?

True, but is seems logical they installed that later. I mean, they couldn't really let these children go outside in a hole or something. And they have magic, so it should be possible...

Not in a magic castle its not!

Yes, but a castle is also way too early

Fair enough

It was because Lily had the choice to live but she chose to die instead. Those who use the killing curse either don't typically care about harming others, or they try to just attack the one person. Lily was never meant to die, so her sacrifice meant all .the more, and secured her son's safety

Now that is something I always thought of thanks for bringing it up

Because Snape asked voldemort to spare Lily and he told her she could live but she made a choice to die. She wanted to die to save Harry. Usually if you are going to kill someone (especially if you are voldemort) you don't ask them if they want to go.

off topic, but another plot hole is the fact that the potters trusted pettigrew. like, really? i ont care how good an actor he was--he was the most cowardly, disgusting character in the book. capable of murder, shady enough to stay as a rat for 12 years living as a pet to some small kids, retreating back as a slave to voldemort.... sure he did all this after they died, but he must have always been a truly coward. stupid on their part and sort of unbelievable.

Okay, first of all, when Pettigrew told Voldemort where to find the Potters, the Fidelius charm broke. Thus, the Potters' house in Godric's Hollow would be visible. Voldemort attempted to kill Harry, but instead the curse rebounded. The house took most of the curse (I believe that's why it collapsed/burned up, etc.). Also, Voldemort "died," or so the wizarding community believed, possibly due to the creation of a new horcrux in Harry (albeit unknowingly done; possibly because of Lily's protective charm). In addition, Lily was always good at charms. Her wand is specifically good for charm work, as Ollivander said in the first book when Harry shows up to purchase his wand. Thus, it isn't far off that she'd be the one to create such a powerful protective charm. However, since Godric's Hollow is a wizarding community, all the people who would be surrounding the Potters' house are wizards. To confirm that fact, when Sirius shows up at the Potters; house, he confronts Pettigrew. Pettigrew uses magic, which is totally acceptable because they are in a wizarding community. This the blown up/burnt up house, the "death" of Voldemort, the "death" of Pettigrew, and the infant left behind are spread throughout the wizarding community by eye witnesses, ie. residents of Godric's Hollow. Note the owls, etc. seen by Muggles because of the wizarding community. Also, in the third book, PoA, everyone says that Pettigrew's death was written in the papers (probably Daily Prophet? Sorry I don't remember; it's been so long since I read that book). Even McGonagall remembers Pettigrew as a "small weak boy" (I think that's what she says) "always tagging along after James and Sirius." She laments that such a fragile, presumably harmless, kid was killed that same night. Or so she thinks (she doesn't know that Pettigrew's alive at that point in the book). Hope this makes sense and clears up a little discussion here.

Regarding the side comment of the above plot-hole: As stated by Bartemius Crouch, Jr., there is no way to block, deflect, or prevent the killing curse in any way. Well, until Lily Potter uses that powerful charm to protect Harry. And I would say the reason it hadn't been done before is because of how rare it would be that someone would kill a baby in front of a loving mother who happened to be extraordinary at charms. (Also, the fact that Trelawney had made a prophesy about it means nothing; Dumbledore himself basically says it was a self-fulfilling prophesy in #6)

Obviously the word spread. Things happened in such a short amount of time but if people had come out of the imperius curse and the dark mark faded then people would be thinking that he had been defeated. Rumours spread about James and Lily being killed but Harry not- I don't think the wizarding world actually understood what really happened- but it's kind of like WW2, being British I still cannot fathom how we defeated the Nazi's but I'm not complaining- the wizarding world had no idea how Harry survived but weren't going to sit around moaning about the vagueness of the defeat. There might have been cases of people dying for loved ones, but not necessarily sacrificing themselves. Voldemort didn't have to kill Lily- he wasn't going to. He was going to quite happily let her live but she refused. It was't like, jumping in front of a bullet it was a proper 'I will die.' type thing.

someone asked about how harry survived the collapsing house--he's a horcrux now, remember? horcruxes are virtually indestructible. in fact...that actually raises another issue, if he's a horcrux, then how is it he can get hurt?

Probably because of the baby still alive amongst the wreckage of a demolished house with the dark mark above it.

How about the trace which can detect which magic is done, so the killing curse x3 done near harry would be noticed. and as its unlike a baby cast it, he must have survived it? also prior incantum or whatever its called would show voldermort's spells

The Dark Mark faded to nothing (nothing but maybe a raised, flesh-color outline) when Voldemort was "vanquished" the first time, so Snape would've been able to confirm to Dumbledore that Voldemort was gone. Speaking of which, it makes no sense that Sirius would not have known what the Dark Mark was in the Goblet of Fire when Harry told him about how Karkaroff was showing Snape something on his arm. Now THAT is a plot hole!

According to Minerva McGonagall, all four of the houses have produced exceptional witches and wizards in their time, but due to Helga Hufflepuff's policy of accepting any student and its usually poor performance in the House Cup, Hufflepuff is often thought of as the place where students are sorted when they don't have any of the qualities of the other three houses, which have more defined attributes. Perhaps as a consequence of the broad principles of acceptance upon which it is founded, Hufflepuff has been stereotyped as the house of the unexceptional (or, more unkindly, as "a lot o' duffers"). This also corresponds with the Sorting Hat's song where it states: "Dear Hufflepuff, she took the rest and taught them all she knew." -AKZ

I al not answering The question but i think we should give a little credit to harry i mean he is The son of two powerful wizards ant The chosen one so he has to have something else that males him special other than his mommy loved him which i think is common True he had The help of his parents for a long time but in The end it was him right? And if cedric could appear as a spirit or whatever lily could have done it and sealed herself in harry to later on protect him These aré my thoughts

someone asked how Harry survived the physical collapse of the house - J.K. has said that wizards are able to generally withstand greater amounts of physical trauma than we muggles. This explains how they're able to play a game like Quidditch, for instance, which would surely claim a few hundred lives each year otherwise.

its is because Lily said- "take me instead of him please, please" she did not just stand in front of harry and say to voldermort please dont kill me

Well that German woman didnt really try to save her children she tried to shut the door on voldemort.. And I think it might have been recorded far back, I mean Dumbledore always talks about acient magic, maybe some type of old acient runes was somewhere and Dumbledore was able to figure it out.

during fake moody's confession he distinctly mentions "themap " dumbledore asks him for a clarification, and moody/crouch replies"potter's map of hogwarts". dumbledore is also the one who opens moody's trunk, so wouldnt he have searched it again (after the interrogation,probably returned like that invisibility cloak was in the first book) and given harry his map back? especially so because it has been repeatedly mentioned that harry was dumbledore's favourite student at hogwarts, regardless of his rule-breaking, so he wouldnt have thought twice about returning it, since its also one of harry's last possesions from his father...

the same thing could have happened but because this time it was voldermort, it became famous, plus usually it wouldn't have hurt the murderer but it did this time beaus he accidentally created a horcrux, or maybe a murderer once failing to kill it victim would give up unlike voldemort

A little off topic, but how does Harry survive the fall from the second floor to the ground and the whole 'collapsing, burning house' scenario, anyway. He must be virtually indestructible.

The whole house was destroyed so it would have attracted wizard authority. They would have found voldemort's wand and done that spell where you can see the last spell cast by someone's wand. And then there were the bodies of Lilly and James but not Harry. Maybe...

^^ and the answer to that question is: They didn't know how Harry lived. No one except for Dumbledore, and later Voldemort, ever advanced a theory about it. Likely, the main thing that convinced people that Voldemort was "dead" was the reaction of the Death Eaters. All of them knew what had happened right away because the Dark Marks faded from their arms, and their reactions (whether it was to flee, turn themselves in, wake up from Impirius curse, etc.) told everyone else what had happened.

I'm shocked at how many people responding to these plot holes completely miss the question. It wasn't 'how did Harry survive' or 'why did Harry survive', the question was 'HOW DID THE WIZARDING COMMUNITY KNOW THE EXACT REASON HARRY LIVED WHEN HE WAS THE ONLY ONE WHO DID IT?'. Come on folks, read, it's not rocket science.

The thing is only Dumbledore knew the truth the rest world didn't know how it happened the first book says this and the reason Harry knows the truth is because Dumbledore told him.

It's not supposed to be one of a kind, if it happened before it just looked like any other murder. The protection was the result of voluntary sacrifice; Voldemort tried to spare Lily sin Snape has begged so. And Dumbledore knew about the whole thing so he could deduce what happened and spread the word (in the first book there's so many owls going around that it's on the news, also there's floo and aparition)

remember that those who had been Impiriused by Voldemort "came back" after he tried and failed to curse Harry. That would have been a significant indicator that Voldemort was defeated. It was probably a while before people figured out the details; they simply knew that he died while trying to kill Harry Potter, and that somehow this baby survived and the Dark Lord perished. As for the "sacrifice protection" never before having been recorded, even Dumbledore didn't fully understand what had really happened, and there may have been some other magic at work besides what we know about.

James's death could've given protection to Harry n Lilly like lilly's gave protection to Harry... Its because James had no choice, but to die... Lilly had an option, she can save her life... But she sacrificed her life for Harry... It comes like this... Only if someone really sacrificed, the killing curse re bounces... This may be rare case...

The difference with Harry was that Lily didn't have to die. She was given a choice and sacrificed herself, unlike the woman who didn't choose. It could have happened before and not been recorded. Feel like I'm clutching at straws here though.

Well, the prophesy was rather vague regarding Harry's victory over Voldemort... I find it rather hasty to assume that Voldemort's curse rebounded on himself due to his mother's sacrifice(which is supposedly a situation has never occured in history) when the scene of the crime consisted of a living infant, a burning house, 2 dead bodies, and no trace of Voldemort. But everyone seemd quite convinced of his death.

Well it was prophosized by Trelawney, that's what makes it different. The downfall of Voldemort and such, specifically. The prophecy also implies that it COULD have been Neville and not Harry. I'm not sure if that explanation suffices but that's what I think.

I was wondering about this one too - especially the bit about there being no other similar cases. I know that Harry and Voldemort's situation is unique, but if there is a special magic which protects a child whose mother died for them, then why is there no example of that before or since? For instance, in book seven, chapter 12, Voldemort attacks a German family. The mother shields them from the killing curse - why didn't this produce a similar situation? Sorry if there's an obvious answer to this, it's a while since Ive read them.

Because... 5-2 = 3, not 2. Please review basic rules of mathematics, then the definition of a plot hole.

QUOTE: "wait DA meeting is in the 5th book = 5th year for harry collin 1 years younger= 4th year Dennis 2 years younger = 3rd year maybe im not understanding the question" --- Ever learned math?

A lot of rule-breaking was going on by then :P

dennis could have snuck out

^^ Dennis Creevey is two years younger than his brother, and three years younger than Harry.

wait DA meeting is in the 5th book = 5th year for harry collin 1 years younger= 4th year Dennis 2 years younger = 3rd year maybe im not understanding the question

He was a 2nd year, but he could easily have sneaked out using one of the secret passages. We don't know much about Dennis' character, but his brother Colin was enthusiastic and outgoing enough to ask Fred and George for help getting his younger brother out, and the Weasley twins would have been happy to oblige.

Colin was a first year in Harry's 2nd. Did Dennis come in POA or GOF? If it was POA that would make him a 3rd year

He was tiny! He could fit under someone else's cloak easy

I think he would have found a way because he liked harry a lot like Colin. And would a creevey miss an opportunity to listen to Harry? I dont think so :)

He was snuck out of the castle for the Dumbledores Army meeting. Not sure how he did it though because Umbridge would have had close eye on everyone, and he doesn't know any secret passage ways

This is just my speculation: The Triwizard Cup was always meant to be a Portkey that transported the winner to the front of the maze. Maybe Moody was unable to remove this spell when he added a detour location to the Portkey and/or the spell for the return trip was convenient because it allowed Voldemort to make it seem that Harry died in the maze, perhaps in a deadly duel for the Cup. As for why not a timed Portkey: different spells for different uses. For the World Cup timed is better as it allows a large group to grab on to it before the spell activates and helps on the organisation front at the campsite. For the Cup, having it activate the moment it is touched for the first time helps to clearly mark out the winner.

Voldemort thought he would definitely be able to kill Harry! He always thought he was the strongest person, and definitely stronger than a 14 year old

My theory on this is that Voldemort was intending to kill Harry right then and there. He didn't expect the twin core effect to occur and cause the disaster it did. I imagine that he wished to kill Harry there, then use the port key with the Death Eaters, and make his grand return in front of the majority of the wizard world there. Since his one true danger would be dead, and all 7 pieces of his soul intact (7 to his knowledge) and kept safe in the horcruxs, he would have nothing to fear, and since most of the wizards in Harry Potter kind of lose their balls at the very mention of his name, he would have no opposition and be able to take his throne. Seriously dude, do you have to have EVERYTHING explained to you? Use creative thinking when you read. Most of these "plot holes" on this list are ridiculously off, and I assume that most of them were written by people who either only saw the movies, or read the books very badly.

When Voldemort and Harry’s wands connected, shadows of Voldemort’s last victims came out. They all obviously knew what was going on and Harry’s parents were the ones who told him to go back to the cup. Right when they said that, the cup lit up again. It is assumed that they, somehow, turned the cup into a reverse portkey.

to the second comment, they didn't use "touch portkey" at the beginning of DH, probably because the two people would have to touch it exactly at the same time, plus having "timed" portkeys meant they knew if something had gone wrong and who was missing or hurt.

They didn't want to use timed portkeys because there would be a bigger chance of the death eaters being able to access them and take them to Order headquarters.

If you used touch portkeys too often, that could be really dangerous. A muggle could be walking around, step on some litter, and be flung into the Quidditch World Cup. I'm seeing some problems with that.

I don't know about why the Order didn't use this method, but Crouch Jr. made it work two ways in order to send Harry's body back. It would look as though Harry died in an accident along with Cedric.

they should make voice activated ones. like, "i am remus lupin and i am going to the burrow with george weasley!"

^yeah in GoF they used "timed" portkeys, but why did they used "timed" portkeys in the beginning of DH? Some of the groups missed their portkey, which was a huge inconvenience. Why couldn't they use "touch" portkeys then?

Not sure about the first question, but for the second, the portkeys would go at a specific time so that the right people catch the portkey. What if a muggle had touched the key first and ended up in the middle of the quidditch world cup?

It's Veritaserum!! Verita is latin for truth, thus truthserum

JK rowling has said that, much like occulamancy, people can block there minds to Vertiserum. EG block its effects. in the case of Sirius the ministry thought that he was voldermorts 'right-hand man' and thought they had taught him some of his most powerful dark magic which would include becoming resistant to the effects of the truth potion.

I don't think this is a plot hole- I think its just a way of showing how unjust the ministry is.

That's the point. They're meant to be incompetent, inconsistent, etc.

rather than seeing this as a plot hole, doesn't seems that Jo is just lecturing the reader about a flawed justice system very alike ours?

The same reason Harry can't use it against Slughorn, Dumbledore mentions that Slughorn can probably resist it.

I've always wondered about this. Also, using the pensieve to study the witnesses' or defendant's memories of events in a trial Yeah, yeah, memories can be tampered with, but still, you'd think applying these two methods in combination with everything else would result in a more accurate verdict.

perhaps there are undesirable side effects to the frequent use of veritaserum? also, the MoM is a government which, like all governments, is on a budget. sending someone to Azkaban is probably far cheeper than constantly brewing veritaserum.

in usa u can be killed for a crime but have the right to remain quiet in questioning.

Yes, J.K. Rowling said that people can pretend to be under the truth potion's effects but actually be resisting it. If it was a matter of going to Azkaban forever, then knock the person out like they did to Crouch Jr. in the 4th book and I'd like to see them try and "resist actually drinking" that potion then. And as for them not working 100%, there are few methods that do, is even an eyewitness 100%? No. Veritaserum should be something that is used as one piece of evidence in an entire trial.

J.K. Rowling has stated that veritaserum is not relied upon by magical law enforcement because it is not 100% reliable, and people can develop a certain level of resistance to the serum's effects. However, I would also like to point out that the Ministry of Magic seems to have a legal system that is, for sheer lack of a better phrase, completely retarded. Maybe that's why Fugde seems to always appear to handle relatively minor matters, like arresting Hagrid in book 2and meeting Harry at the leaky Cauldron in book 3? It's as if this man has nothing better to do or no one capable to delegate these tasks to, both of which we know to be untrue.

Apparently if you get force fed the potion one can stop it from going down their throat and could pretend to be under it. I've always wondered why they don't us leginmency but I suppose it is illegal...

J.K. never went into what happens if you use veritaserum on someone who has been Confunded or Imperiused. The one person we've seen it used on was Barty Crouch Jr., who had no time to mount a defense against it. It is possible, even likely, that veritaserum has its limitations and is therefore not a reliable method of extracting truth in a courtroom.

Veritaserum is not infallible, Crouch (powermad) sended him to Azkaban without a trial, since there where many eyewitnesses. Even with veritaserum Crouch could have said that Sirius was using trickery to render himself inmune to it.

Hmmm... I've thought about that many times... I guess like real truth serum, the potion forces people to recount what they think is true, which may not necessarily be the actual truth... Tampered minds can render the potion useless... But I do find the ministry kinda efficient; underage magic detection anyone?

In the fifth book, it was revealed that Bartemius Crouch Sr. (who was half mad at the time) ordered people to be sent to Azkaban without trial. And the Dementors didn't always do the kiss, that would be equal to a death sentence in our court system.

The ministry of magic is flawed and often unjust, like many governments around the world. On the use of the truth potion, Veritaserum; like lie detectors, it is not foolproof and can be decieved.

I would just point out that in the US, polygraphs are inadmissable in most court rooms.

She was sleeping and he ejeculated inside her.

The engorgement charm I would suspect. And a lot of healing potions.

Do you really want to be given an answer to this? Okay, you asked for it. Ever heard of vore? Perhaps in the wizard world there is a variation of vore that involves being "swallowed" by a giant's vagina. I am not trying to be gross here, because this is not the only odd sexual thing in HP. I would imagine he was swallowed, and then ejaculated into her cervix, fertilizing the egg. Before anyone argues with me about this being totally unlikely, remember that Umbridge was raped by centaurs in book 5. It isn't blatantly said, but it is implied. Centaurs rape women, that is what they do in mythology. Also the implied bestiality between Aberforth and his goat.

If you're asking about crossbreading two species, may I submit: horses and mules can crossbreed, and so an tigers and lions. Humans and Giants can probably crossbreed as well, just with a similar genetic result: traits of both species, but sterile. Grawp is also mentioned as being small for a giant, so it is possible that their shared mother may have also been smaller than usual for her species, if still much larger than Hagrid's father.

More easily than Giant dad, Human mom. ^-^

If you recall, Hagrid thinks that Madame Maxine was a half-giant, like he is: this suggests that real giantesses are generally smaller than real giants too. Besides, Hagrid's father was a wizard, highly possible that he used some sort of transfiguration charm on himself to make him taller, buffer, etc.

IVF and desperation ??

maybe his mom was raped by the wizard.

If you are curious it makes more sense than having a giant dad and human mum. This is because a human female would not have been physically able to carry such a large baby over her pregnancy. It is the same principle as interbreeding dogs, the mother has to be bigger to ensure survival of herself and the offspring xoxo

well, I mean.... it's technically POSSIBLE.....

we aren't supposed to think of details like that but its the other way round that would have created a pobleme haha

Love potion...? Hehe.

This is indeed technically a plot-hole, but its one of those things I attribute to the books being a "kid's series." The books have a lot of other cartoonishly absurd concepts throughout them (muggles being comically unaware of magic, for example) that seem to be there to intentionally keep the books lighthearted. In the later books when things take a darker tone these concepts are frequently glossed over, but in books 1-4 they're fairly common.

The whole thing doesn't make sense. Hagrid's mom abandens him because he is too small to be a giant, but being with a normal size wizard was ok?

Hagrid's dad was a Wizard. He could have cast an "Engorgio" charm upon himself, or something. Let's just let this one lie at this point, shall we?

considerably better than a giant dad, human mom... if you're looking for more information, i'd suggest asking your parents about the birds and the bees

The giant could have been smaller then.

With a very, very big nob.

Use your imagination ;-)

Your pardon, please disregard "pepper" from earlier comment, as that, too, was once a plant.

perhaps it is the element of life? Most "food" with exception of some spies (ie salt, pepper) used to be alive, either as animals or vegitation. Water might contain life in it, but pure water itself is not alive. I doubt the RoR could summon a person or pet, either.

there is hydrogen and oxygen in the air, which as we know oxygen is formed of 2 hydrogen and 1 oxygen atom, so it is simply creating water from these elements in the spell

You can't use water on fiendfire. Which is why it didn't work in the RoR. As for conjuring it... Maybe you aren't creating it, but merely transporting it from one place to another. Like you CAN do with food.

There is water in the air. All the time. It probably just takes the water out of the air. That would also explain why Augmenti didn't work on the fire in the room of requirement. It was so hot the water in the air was evaporating.

The water isnt meant to be drunk its meatnt to be used as a offensive spell anyway if you tried to fill your glass with water using aguamenti the glass would shatter

When Molly does the soup-thing everyone is talking about, I think it's much more likely that she used her wand like a baster or a dropper.

Well you can conjure fire..... so why not water? Basic elementalism......

well us muggles can make water out of nothing. Well, an empty bottle and a lit splint, but if we can do that, surely wizards can counjure the same thing.

What's considered food, anyway? If you conjure a live chicken, and then you kill it and cook it, is it considered food?

No, the second commenter is right. I noticed this on the re-read of...HBP, I think. Molly does conjure food out of thin air because she wasn't prepared, so it should be a mistake.

the dog from the rock is not real. Cedric does this in GoF to fool his dragon into not killing him. it doesnt work because the dragon is not confused long enough

it's a magic book. all plotholes are null and void.

Doesn't someone transfigure a rock into a dog at some point? If you can turn non-organic material into organic material, then isn't this basically just creating food?

I think food and water must be separated, and water can't be considered just as sort of food/drink at this point. It's a simple material, not only in gastronomy, but also in every other science (chemistry, agriculture, architecture), so don't think that water spell is used only when someone is thirsty (well, it's funny that we see only one case, when Dumbledore needs drink in the cave where the fake Locket is hidden). For the technical background, I also think that creating water from nothing is possible as mentioned, with using some circumstances like water.filled air or whatever, so it's not strange that can be made by spell (like other materials on higher level, just remember the Sorcerer's Stone)

na mrs weasley just magics food that has already been made but apparates it... and wats this about particles? its magic bumface

Hang on a minute, doesn't Mrs Weasley conjure soup out of her wand at one point?

Perhaps aguamenti condenses water particles in the air, while there are no "food" particles in the air.

this is more thatn 20.....

J.K. Rowling mentioned in an interview that Harry sneaked back into the office and retrieves it!

during fake moody's confession he distinctly mentions "themap " dumbledore asks him for a clarification, and moody/crouch replies"potter's map of hogwarts". dumbledore is also the one who opens moody's trunk, so wouldnt he have searched it again (after the interrogation,probably returned like that invisibility cloak was in the first book) and given harry his map back? especially so because it has been repeatedly mentioned that harry was dumbledore's favourite student at hogwarts, regardless of his rule-breaking, so he wouldnt have thought twice about returning it, since its also one of harry's last possesions from his father...

People. Not everything that Harry does in the books makes it into the pages. Come on. You're really reaching now

in the days that he was a little lost in himself he could easily have gotten it from moody's office

I bet anything Dumbledore gave it back to him. That's what I always assumed anyhow.

You could speculate an hour about this, but I wouldn't mark this as a plot hole. If Rowling should explain everything what happens, it would be ridiculous. E.g. there is a Quidditch training and suddenley - the next paragraph - Harry is back in the Common Room of Gryffindor. Strange? How is that possible? Did they Apparate? That's not possible at Hogwarts... and so on

After knowing it is fake Moody and when Harry was remembering about the Marauder's map, he could've simply said "Accio Map"... A simple summoning charm.... :)

JK Rowling says he walked backed into the empty office and got it from Moody's desk. Wow, wasn't that simple? Have an open mind, people.

He gets it back when they're in Moody's office at the end. ^ It's not really due to J.K. Rowling being a faulty writer- if she stated every single thing that happened to everything, it'd be like every other children's book. The fact that it makes sense in a believable way (not the magic part) means that she doesn't have to state every single detail and we still get the whole story.

"It doesn't specifically say how he got it back (which it should), but it also doesn't negate the possibility of there being a very simple explanation, unlike with other errors." Wheter the explanation might have been simple or not, the books didn't explain how Harry got the map back, therefore it's a PLOTHOLE. "Lupin gave it back to him!" *facepalm* Lupin gave him the map in book three. We're talking about the book FOUR.

Lupin gave it back to him!

It doesn't specifically say how he got it back (which it should), but it also doesn't negate the possibility of there being a very simple explanation, unlike with other errors.

He just sneaked into the office at the end of term and retrieved it

Or maybe he managed to get it back after the real Moody was discovered?

He gets it back via J.K. Rowling being a faulty/weak writer.

Nowhere in the books does it say you need to be a prefect to be a head boy or girl. Head boys and girls are considered to be in charge of the prefects, it has nothing to do with their academic standing, only their maturity.

Prefects are like school officers, like a president and secretary and what not. Head boy and head girl are like valedictorians, the top of their class educationally.

Head boy and Head Girl are chosen in the final year and Prefects in the fifth year. James and Lily probably were together by then so James would have matured hugely by the time it came to their final year, therefore worthy of becoming Head Boy.

No, the plot hole lies in the assumption that the Head Boy wouldn't need anyone to keep him in line.

I think the commenter above me misunderstood the question. However, they never explicitly said that only prefects could become headboy/girl. James could have become headboy despite the fact that Lupin was Prefect. Or Lupin could have turned it down and Dumbledore thought James had matured enough for the responsibility.

Prefects can become head boys and girls. For instance, Percy Weasley was a prefect when Harry first came to Hogwarts, but was made Head Boy in his 7th year.

It's also possible that the map cannot process the time/space paradox re: someone using a Time Turner. But here's an even better question: If Fred and George nicked it from Filch in their first year, then why did they not see Peter Pettigrew with their little brother Ron when he came to Hogwarts? You would think that Molly would've asked them to keep an eye on Ron/watch out for him (she likely didn't know about the map, so Fred and George were more confident they could do that), and once they kept seeing a "Peter Pettigrew" always near or around Ron, you would think that they would at least ask Ron who the Hell Pettigrew was, or figure it out for themselves.

Lupin didn't see Ron on the map, he just saw Hermione and Harry (the future one). The map doesn't let you see the grounds of Hogwarts, so he wouldn't have seen the original trio coming from Hagrid's hut - or Wormtail. That's why Wormtail bit Ron and escaped, he knew if he got back in the castle, that Lupin would find him on the map.

all the teachers knew about Hermione's time turner...

Maybe he just happened to open it and saw straight away that they were somewhere they shouldn't be and didn't think about looking anywhere else because he doesn't know Hermione has a time turner, and that there should be two Harry and Hermione's running around Hogwarts.

there r a lot of dots he could have missed them the seconde time, snapew ouldn't have been able to c them in the shack, it is not on the map.

I think you are precisely right. the hidden room is not on the map either, bec they never knew about it. remember in HBP when Draco was using the room, he completely disappeared from the map.

I dont know... Its possible, because lupin was a student when he and the others made the map, that they didn't consider time travel when creating it...

weren't the teachers made aware that hermione had the time turner for classes? lupin probably figured what they were doing and knew hermione wouldn't mess with time unless it was very important

Maybe the map wasn't made for time travel and so only showed one pair.

He may not have spotted them twice. There are hundreds of black dots. OR he may have been wise enough not to mention this as he thought it was probably important not to. OR he never got time to mention it.

he needed snape to kill him anyway for the whole elder wand thing to work out, so he figured he might as well be the one to get stoned on voldy juice in the process.

i think the people who made the movie just wanted to make it easier to remember that for example hermione was bellatrix. otherwise the goblins would have definitely noticed the difference between them. these so called 'plot holes' arent plot holes. just because you arent given every. single. bit. of information doesnt mean somethings been left out

It’s just the movies. You’re changing bodies and therefore, vocal chords. It’s not like you just change the skin and have the same organs as you did in your real body. That would be stupid and really screw things up if you are changing into a different gender. The movies just thought that would be more entertaining, plus it might have been confusing to people who haven’t read the books to see Crabbe and Goyal acting like Harry and Ron. The voices helped you remember what was going on and made it more comical, and therefore, more entertaining.

well, we must assume that the potion changes your voice or draco would of noticed it was harry and ron not crabbe and goyle. And the poster below me says it is written, although i dont personaly remember this. But it does make sense, therefore, why harry says in the seventh book he had never heard either crabbe's voice before and it was oddly high pitched, because, although he would of heard it in the second book, he would not of heard him speak after puberty until the last book.

The movies make SO many mistakes. This is definitely a mistake the films made because in the book, the polyjuice potion DOES change your voice. I read it in the second book today.

I was confused about that, it must just be hollywood

Your voice is a direct product of air moving over your vocal cords shaped by the position of your tongue, teeth, and lips. Changing yourself physically into someone else is obviously going to change your voice too but it would be flat without any form of accent as that is a product of where you grow up.

A little off-topic, but serious Kudos to Helena Bonham-Carter for her portrayal of Hermione-as-Bellatrix! She had Hermione's mannerisms so down pat, I actually had to look twice to realize that it wasn't Emma Watson made up to look like Bellatrix.

I think the voice changing in the movies is something that is done to ensure that casual movie-goers understand that, for example, Bellatrix Lestrange isn't ACTUALLY helping Ron and Harry rob Gringotts. In Goblet of Fire, preserving Crouch, Jr.'s identity is absolutely central to the plot twist at the end, and so his voice has to be concealed.

It's just something that is in the movies. In the books your voice changes as well as your appearance (several examples, most recently being when Hermione changed into Bellatrix when they broke into Gringotts).

Some of these points are ridiculous "Dumbledore was dead at the beginning of book 7, he wouldn't have been notifying the ministry of anything.........." Since when was OotP book 7? In anycase, Harry was sent the Advanced Gaurd, something that was comprised of AURORS. Aurors, most often being afillitated with the Ministry, would most likely be KNOWN to be moving Harry, thus making it ok to use magic around him. Besides, it took a little while for the Ministry to react to Dobby using magic the first time, don't you think it wouldn't taken some time even if it were a wizard using Magic?

None of you understand!!!!! When magic is done IN THE HOUSE, any underage wizard can be suspected of performing it. Tonks is not underage, but HARRY IS!!! What could possibly happen is Harry would get a letter that reads, "We have detected a Scourgify spell performed in your household. As an underage wizard, this is against the wizard law for you to perform."..... What most likely actually happened is this: Dumbledore or Moody informed the Ministry that Harry was being rescued that day, and magic might possibly be used, so that they would not be alarmed by it and think it was Harry. I know some people have pointed out some of my points, but I just want to make it all clear and prevent further misunderstandings.

um, the ministry can only detect underage magic. otherwise fred and george could of done magic at home all time, and just blame it on their parents.

Dumbledore was dead at the beginning of book 7, he wouldn't have been notifying the ministry of anything..........

There are several plausible explanations for this; a) Dumbledore notified the ministry that they would be moving Harry from the Dursleys and would be using various Aurors to do so. b) Tonks is an Auror, she would have to do magic in all sorts of places therefore her magic would go undetected- she could have been catching a dark wizard. c) I doubt elf magic is tracked at the ministry, therefore when Dobby used magic at Privet Drive- it would have flashed up as Harry doing underage magic. Therefore Tonks was able to use magic in that house because she was of age. In DH they would have been keeping extra tabs on Harry as he was 'undesirable number one' so thats why they would know if people did magic around him.

Harry wand having a Trace and the Ministry of Magic noticing that magic has been done around Harry's vicinity are 2 different things. The first is unavoidable. The second has lots of loopholes. I mean, Dobby obviously didn't have a Trace on him, yet his magic triggered alarms that somewhere near Harry magic had been performed. Tonks is old enough not to have a Trace, but her magic doesn't set off any alarms? For that matter, why didn't Hagrid giving Dudley a pig tail set off alarms at the ministry?

Tonks doesn't have the trace on her, when she performs magic, even in an underage wizards house, she cannot be detected! Unlike Dobby who made it seem that Harry performed the hover charm! He possibly used elf magic to manipulate where the magic came from! If you remember Dumbledore summon krecher to Privit Drive and also makes bottles of meed appear for himself and the Dursleys, this also happens at Privit drive! When Harry performs Magic he is detected as an underage wizard using magic! A loophole in the movie is when Hermione fixes Harry's glasses in Diagon Alley, in the book it's Arthur (I think) who fixes them!

in deathly hallows moody tells harry that the trace will detect if anyone uses magic around him, so he should have gotten an owl when tonks cast her spells.

Even if Dumbledore was not in the best of term with the Ministry at the time it likely that they got notified that Harry was being moved that day. If only to prevent further legal trouble. Same for books six and four.

Im pretty sure they dont have traces on overage wizards. Consider in Deathly Hallows they never find the group.

Um, both Tonks and Kingsley worked for the Ministry. Kingsley was a Senior Auror and Tonks was an Auror and they both passed Ministry information to the Order of the Phoenix. Kingsley himself was supposed to lead the investigation into Sirius's whereabouts after his escape, but instead intentionally mislead them to believe he was in hiding in Tibet. Kingsley certainly could've mislead or directed the office that traces magic towards an excuse They mislead Scrimgeour otherwise, so it's not a stretch to think that they would mislead him in this instance. The 6th commenter is *wrong*.

Tonks didn't have the trace on her anymore. Doesn't that mean the ministry can't detect her magic?

I wouldnt discard that aurors of the OP have connectios with the Improper Use of Magic Office (they both belong to the Dpt Magical Law Enforment); nor that Tonks knew how to fool the trace as she mentions Stealth and Tracking, Disguise and Concealment (although this last seems more akin to physical appearance) as courses to join the auror office.

The second commenter is right. It is a valid plothole. The only explanations would be that the ministry knew they were moving Harry (unlikely), someone in the Order worked at the underage magic department got them to let it slide (unlikely because none of the known members worked there, and nothing in the books suggested there were more members), or they tipped off someone at the underage magic department (unlikely they would go through all the trouble just to perform a few simple spells)

If she gets undetectable magic, she could have just apparated with Harry in DH

I think that performing magic in a house filled only with other wizards and witches would have been let slide. Think about all the Wizarding families that live in Muggle communities; even the Weasleys. They have to have some kind of criteria, or every one of them would be getting letters left and right. Also, I think one of the reasons Harry got that letter was because of the house filled with Muggles and he being the only wizard anywhere. They can't see house-elves, can they? SO it would have been logic.

Maybe since she's an Auror she gets certain privileges like undetectable magic, or she could even know how to be undetectable.

They detect magic but can't see who's done it. So when Tonks did magic the ministry should think that Harry did it. Therefor, this is a plothole.

She is not underage, why would they?

More importantly, how did Harry get through Snape's potion test? Shouldn't the only available potion for foreward motion already have been used by Quirrell/Voldemort? After all, the key in the first room was already damaged and didn't magically repair itself, and it's rediculous to think Snape left two of the same potion.

Reread the books. Dumbledore set up those traps knowing all along Harry was going to go after it. He even said later on that he was remarkably foolish and selfish for testing Harry like that.

They had a lot of help. First off, Hagrid accidentally told them how to get by Fluffy. The Devil’s snare was a little easy, the troll was already dead, the key was already bent out of shape with a broken wing so that tipped Harry off, and Ron was super good at chess whereas, most people aren’t. Plus, he had to sacrifice himself to win. One person couldn’t have gotten through those things. It took teamwork. I’ll admit that the potions and the snare were both easy but Dumbledore knew that the Mirror of Erised would hold anyone who was evil back so basically, the other barriers were just small precautions. Also, the teachers weren’t going down there to get Flamel elixir. He had stocked up. That would just be stupid.

One thing people never realize - THE STONE WASN'T MEANT TO BE COMPLETELY INACCESSIBLE! They needed to access it regularly to get the elixir for Nicolas Flamel and his wife! So, obviously they had to have obstacles that were possible to get around. The fact that the obstacles they chose were ones that catered to the strength of the Trio was complete luck. As anyone who reads the books knows, Harry has extreme luck. He has really bad luck which gets him into near-impossible situations, but he has really good luck that gets him out.

I think Voldemort would have had a harder time reaching the stone as a human if he didn't have Quirrel--because Quirrel already knew what all of the traps were, making it easy to get around them. Voldemort by himself would have had no trouble at all getting to the Mirror of Erised, because he was in Spirt Form at the time & needed the Stone to get his body back. Yet neither Quirrel nor Voldemort could get the Stone from the Mirror because they had their own selfish desires in mind for it. Harry, Hermione, and Ron had each other. They all had certain skills that allowed them to get past each challenge because they knew their strengths. One student, first year or older, would not have been able to reach the Stone by themselves because they would not be very likely to possess such a wide range of skills. So it took three unprepared, but quite intelligent, minds to pass all of the teachers' defenses.

what i don't get is why make it possible for someone to get through the defences? surely the point is to stop anyone getting through. why not make the chess men or birds attack, or make all the bottles poison, therefore making it sure that no one could reach the stone?

Also, in PS only 4 or 5 teachers knew about and were trying to protect the stone. In DH, the whole staff and many aurors and students were trying to keep voldy out. Not a good comparison.

the traps where a delay system, designed to get people stuck down there for a while (and the potion trap would have because Dumbledore says a lot of wizards lack basic logic skills) there was no way for someone who seeked the stone and wanted to use it to be able to get it.

Personally I've always looked at the "obstacle course" at the end of PS as just that. It's a little too tailor made to each of their strengths to really be anything else.

I'm pretty sure Voldemort got through all of the obstacles without any trouble, his only trouble was the mirror. Remember, Voldemort left just enough potion for Harry to come to him. He wanted to meet Harry.

I agree that they had a significant advantage, already being at Hogwarts. Also, they had information and skills that, combined, were unique. They knew how to calm down Fluffy, which I doubt many others would have been able to worm out of Hagrid. It was fairly unusual for someone to have Hermione-esque memory and know how to deal with the plant. The logic Harry used to find the key, and his skill in catching it, weren't dime-a-dozen either. Basically, the levelheadedness with which they faced the tasks is not something they would expect to be found in who they thought would want the stone, maybe a power-hungry megalomaniac or someone foolish enough to desire immortality.

getting through the maze was only luck that each obstacle required a talent that one of the three had, but the last test was the one ment to stop anyone from getting it other than someone who did not want it (harry)

they weren't there to keep Voldy out they were there to keep anyone out. the perpatrater(?) not only would have to get into hogwarts but by the teachers. then the person would have to get by the obsticles. the likelihood that they could do that alone is slim. the trio were able to get through bec they were already in hogwarts and the teachers wouldn't hurt them. all that was left was the obsticles and they succeeded because there were three minds working together. they knew about the music, ron for the chess, hormine for the devil's snare and potions, and harry for the flying key and the heart of gold to want the stone but not use it. the ogre was taken care of by professor quarrel. i think there may have been more. anyway the prof had the same advantage (voldy was intellegent enough to help the professor along if needed) except the heart of gold for the stone.

Getting through the obstacles was all just luck and magic for the trio. The reason that Harry was able to get the stone and not Voldy was because of Dumbledore's enchantment on the mirror of Erised. He charmed it that you could only get the stone if you didn't intend to use it. Also, I'm sure that the staff all knew that if Voldemort was to enter Hogwarts, he would not have a full body or at least one all to himself. A piece of a soul feeding off the back of a young professor's head is not the same as the most powerful dark wizard of all time.

To quote Dumbledore [talking to Snape], "You are a braver man by far than Igor Karkaroff. You know, I sometimes think we Sort too soon ...

The Sorting isn't really a set thing, in my opinion. Sometimes you just have to use the process of elimination.... Pettigrew wasn't loyal (just to whoever seemed like a winner, which doesn't count) so he couldn't be a Hufflepuff; he wasn't ambitious (he just latched on to others' ambition) so he's not a Slytherin; he's not clever enough to be a Ravenclaw, so that leaves Gryffindor. Of course he's not brave at all, but if he's absolutely NOT any of the other House characteristics, maybe the Sorting Hat wanted some courage to rub off on Pettigrew by being around brave people, since it is (arguably) the easiest trait to "grow" for yourself.

wormtail was in gryffindor, not because he had hte qualities of a gryffindor, but becuase he valued the qualities of a gryffindor (he showed remorse on harry and ron in teh seventh book) and he chose his friends as the ones that possessed these qualities and he admired them.

Yes J K rowling never really explains why wormtail is in Gryffindor. It doesn't really make sense as he's such a weak cowardly character. I always thought that the hat was supposed to see into the future or something to where people would be most needed. It considers putting Herminone into Ravenclaw (as you would expect with her brains) but she ends up in Gryffindor where she is of course very important to Harry's survival throughout the books. I fail to understand how wormtail could ever have been put there though!

This is the same thing for Snape, people saying that he should be in Gryffindor really because of what he came out to be. Remember though that Harry wanted to be in Gryffindor and he made that choice. Snape obviously wanted to be in Slytherin at the time. Also remember in Chamber of Secrets Dumbledore said that its our choices are what matter.

he was brave...and prehaps mean, but that doesn't make him a slytherine for sure

It is suggested in the books that Wormtail felt he was in Harry's debt because Harry spared his life in the shrieking shack his third year. This shows that Wormtail has some capacity for loyalty, a Griffindor trait.

Wormtail was in Gryffindor, as is shown in several flashbacks in the books. Clearly as he grew older his nature changed- Dumbledore says at one point that he sometimes feels the students are sorted too early.

^^ adding further to my own comment... Wormtail was a bad guy, but he lacked many of the qualities that Salazar Slytherin respected. He had zero ambition, for instance. He seemed reluctant to take any sort of decisive action, even when it furthered his own ends. Furthermore, remember that when the sorting hat was considering Harry's placement, he said that Harry "could be great", and that Slytherin House would help him to get there. Apparently, the hat bases its choice at least in part on what is best for the student. It might have hoped that some of the Gryffindor bravery would rub off on Wormtail. It seems to have worked for Neville, after all.

Remember that the sorting hat takes your choice into account. Wormtail liked being around people who were stronger and braver than himself; he was probably scared of the Slytherins, and begged the hat to put him into Gryffindor, where he would have more protective friends.

Nothing says that friends have to be in the same house. Cho Chang and Cedric Diggory were respectively a Ravenclaw and a Hufflepuff and they were dating. Wormtail very well could have been put in Slytherin

He did break it in the movie... And he didnt even fix his old wand. I was a disappointed lady at the end of that movie.

She did that in case she goes bankrupt and needs another books deal Dark Wizard takes the wand, stalks Harry in order to kill him and become the master... Auror Harry must figure out who the Villain is and overcome him... I'd read it.

No one other than Harry, Ron, Hermione and the portraits at Hogwarts know what happens to the wand! Everyone believes that it's true allegiance lies with Harry, but also that it is the wand of destiny, it couldn't be destroyed or taken away unless by a really powerful wizard, if that was the case, I'm sure Harry would first retrieve the wand!

I assumed by "where it came from" that Harry was referring to Death. The easiest method of getting rid of the Elder Wand (or any of the Hallows) would be to toss them through the Veil at the Department of Mysteries, thus returning them to Death.

Also wanted to mention, Because Harry is not carrying around the wand, there could be a long long chain of new owners who don't even know they own the wand. Someone could disarm him and not know of the wand and then someone could disarm that person and so on and so on. So by the time someone is searching for the wand he will have a very hard time finding the chain of people who were the owners. It's much easier to track when the people carry around the wand.

I believe that he did mean Dumbledore when he said he will put it back where it came from. Dumbledores grave from then on probably had every enchantment/protection put onto it as they could. And Harry only told like 3 people that he was placing it back and I don't think destroying it was feasible because of its power. Also he would not have given it to Olivander because Harry never really liked or fully trusted him because of his admiration of dark powers.

In addition to everything above, I would imagine that Dumbledore's tomb will probably be given a great deal of magical protection going forward. Dumbledore was well-loved and many people were probably outraged that his tomb would be opened and desecrated. The wizarding community would likely see to it that such a thing would not happen again.

I just think that no one would dare try to steal it from Harry.

everybody would assume harry had it and would not check dumbledore's grave, plus its creepy to take the wand out of the grave of such a great wizard. Harry could have ment somewhere else, but i doubt it :)

I assumed 'where it came from' did refer to Dubledore's tomb; returning it to the Peverell brother's grave wouldn't be back where it came from because that was Ignotus Peverell's grave- the youngest brother and owner of the cloak. The eldest Peverell brother who originally owned the wand was Antioch, and I don't think his grave is ever mentioned...

An amendment to the above: Harry wasn't public about what he was going to do with the wand. Voldemort announced where the wand was taken, so a clever dark wizard could figure out where the wand was if Harry wasn't using it.

I like the theory of returning it to the Peverell brother's grave, but a clever dark wizard with the knowledge of the Deathly Hallows tale may search the graveyard in Godric's Hallow as well, given Harry's public clues about returning the wand. Grindelwald and Lovegood knew that the Peverells were buried in Godric's Hallow, so it must be somewhat common knowledge. I think JK has opened a gateway to writing another book

Voldemort never had the Elder Wand. Dumbledore had it, but then he was disarmed by Draco Malfoy, who was then disarmed by Harry. When he said "back where it came from" he meant the Perverell brother.

Harry did indeed tell everyone about where the wand came from and why he was its master. I suspect that he may have done this in part because he was really telling the WAND about it - which may not have been necessary, but Harry was covering his bases. So that may not have been as stupid as it seemed. Insofar as his plans to return it to Dumbledore's tomb, only he, Ron, and Hermione know about that; he said that part while in Dumbledore's office. Well, all the portraits know it too, but I imagine that they have enough respect for Dumbledore that they'll keep quiet about it. Harry could then go on to tell the rest of the world that the Elder Wand has been destroyed. Why not just destroy it in the first place? Well, perhaps he thinks that MAYBE he'll need it someday. Harry's had a difficult life, and keeping this powerful weapon in reserve just in case he needs it again sounds like sensible long-range planning to me.

I've wondered about this one too. It seems that Harry is betting that no wizard will ever defeat him in a duel for the rest of his life. I can certainly foresee that some dark wizard wannabe might want to take on the Great Harry Potter who defeated Voldemort, just to prove himself. It really would make a lot more sense to snap the wand in half. Or, perhaps he could give it to Ollivander - the wandmaker would certainly respect the Elder Wand enough to keep it out of the wrong hands, and he's probably not too far from dying a natural death.

Wow. I think you're rather on about the Perevells. Originally, I had thought that he was going to disassemble it and give it back to the tree from whence it came. Or, my second thought, was that he would call on Death (as he is now the Master of Death, with all three items) and return it to Death himself.

This is the same as Plot Hole 9 "The fate of the wand" (above)

In the same paragraph in which Harry states his intention to put the wand "back where it came from" he also mentions Ignotus Peverell, from whom the invisibility cloak, and apparently Harry, descended. There's no telling where the other two P. brothers (makers of the wand and the deathstone) may be buried. Harry could mean to bury the wand in the grave of the only Peverell brother (where it came from) that he knows how to find.

You kiddin? Good two shoes that she still was? she didn't become remotely a bad-ass really till book 5. We're talking young mione here. she'd never breack a rule like that unless it was for a good (save the world) reason.

Maybe she was worried one of her other "selves" would accidently stumble across herself n one of her favorite quite corners, a major time-turner no-no. Besides, 800 students, plus several professors running around? There can't be that many quiet corners that haven't already been claimed.

I think that the ONLY thing a person could change in the past is to kill his past self. Maybe it makes them dead in the future. A sec before they use the time turner, so they don't change any other events.

Why didnt the ministry just go back in time to stop Voldemort as soon as they came to know about the murders. if hermione can use a time turner for lessons surely aurors should

because its illegal for her to use it and she could have been seen if she was sleeping, so someone could easily have noticed, that something was up.

I find the weirdest Time-Turner problem to be that in the third book, it is made quite obvious that everything Hermione and Harry did had ALREADY HAPPENED. (eg hearing Buckbeak being killed but it was really the ax hitting the fence, or in the movie, Hermione throwing the rocks). But then Hermione says wizards have killed their past or future selves, which would not have been possible under those rules.

This is probably because Dumbledore intended Hermione to have it.

There are many possible reasons why this might not have been feasible. Perhaps the Time Turner had a limited capacity, in terms of how far you could go back and how many times you could use it. Also, there's the problem of how she would age much faster than her fellow students, if she were using it to catch up on sleep as well as going to classes; she might have finished the year having lived through twice as much time as the rest of the school. But I think the most likely reason is simply that Hermione is not one to break rules, and that if she were told to use it only to go to extra classes, then she would scrupulously use it for nothing else.

You really think Hermione would break rules to sleep? McGonagall had to write so many letters to the Ministry to convince them to give Hermione a timeturner, she's not just going to abuse it!

^The supply of them was destroyed towards the end of book 5

Not to mention how a timeturner could have been (ab)used by both sides of the war. The order since they were able to provide for Hermione and probably those who control the Ministry of Magic.

Not relevant, but I find the Time Turner too unrealistic... Tampering with time is a remarkable power, even for wizards, yet it isn't mentioned significantly in the series.. And even stranger, that power was given to a student; simply to have extra classes..

i digress

mcgonagal told her not to use it for anything but her classes

Yes this was fixed, My hardcovers still say this and I believe the audiobooks have it correct.

not a plot hole because it doesn't effect the rest of the story but a mistake that was easily changed

a small fix error not a big deal

Both the editor and Rowling where tired of the whole thing.

this was only an issue in the american version... the ditor wanted to change it to make it more dramatic, but J.k realised the mistake and had it changed

Confirmed, it was fixed in the paperback release. Lily Potter came out first, and said to Harry, "Hold on for your father. Then, James came out.

true, I believe this is fixed in the paperback release.

Harry got bitten by the basilisk BUT pheonix tears are an antidote to Basilisk venom SO when Fawkes the pheonix cried onto Harry's wound, all the damage was fixed and the Basilisk venom couldn't take full effect and completely destroy the piece of Voldemorts soul inside Harry.

because harry had a the protection of his mum until the age of 17 thats why voldermort couldnt kill him in the first place!

Because the Horcrux inside Harry needs to be killed by the original source. Voldemort has been loving side Harry all these years and has become a part of him. The original source needs to kill it.

This got me thinking... I think it's because, for a Horcrux to be destroyed, there has to be NO POSSIBLE WAY for it to be fixed, in a magical way or otherwise. Since Harry is human, Fawkes' tears worked on him, because he could be fixed. If Fawkes had cried on Riddle's diary, the tears would not have healed it, because it's an inanimate object. If that makes sense to anyone other than me, problem solved.

And how come if you need a basilisk fang or the sword (or something special like that) then voldy was able to kill the horcrux inside harry with just the killing curse?? how does that make sense..anybody???

The problem with the Basilisk venom is that it would have killed Harry's physical form as well both the soul within it. A horcrux is only as strong as the object holding it! I think the Horcrux might have struggled to remain in the body as long as it could before completely destroying. When Harry was cured by faawkes, the Horcrux must have figured the body was safe again, and returned back to it!

he has his moms protection lingering

A horcrux can only be destroyed if there is no remedy, since there happened to be phoenix tears near by, which are VERY rare it was saved, (for three more years until the Deathly Hallows).

For the basilisk venom to have killed the bit of Voldemort's soul it would have had to been introduced directly into Harry's scar. Harry isn't himself the accidental horcrux so much as his scar is. Though if the venom had managed to kill Harry I assume the soul fragment would have been destroyed too.

The Horcrux can only be destroyed along with its vessel. The Basie's venom is not some specific "anti-horcrux" remedy - it's merely so toxic and corrosive it can overcome all possible defensive charms placed on the horcrux.

Phoenix tears. The diary did not "die" right away, either. It "bled out."

fair play

dis is a grate point!often wundered myself.surely it wod of been destroyed before fawkes cried on de bite?

The MoM put traces on Privet Dr. so that any magical means of travel ie... apparation, potkey, floo would be detected. What I don't get, is that more than once, we have been told that you cannot trace someone who apparates. So why not JUST apparate out. The Ministry would know it happened, but they wouldn't be able to tell where they apparated to.

The main thing that puzzles me about this is that is that they went through a ton of trouble to get Harry away from the dursley's house to a portkey when one person could have just taken a portkey to him.

I think it's because they didn't want to use any magic on Harry. That's why he rode off on the motorcycle instead of departing in some other magical way

Plus, as soon as Harry left the dursleys, the enchantments would break and the death eaters could approach them and would then directly know that it was Harry outside somewhere and attack

They knew when Harry was being moved, so if a random muggle came out of his house with an auror, it would be obvious that that was Harry. They're not stupid you know!! And changing 6 other members of order into muggles would have the same effect as changing them into harry. I don't see a plothole in this...

He couldn't do any of thoughs things, because he still had the trace on him and the ministry had been infiltrated by Death Eaters. They would know when Harry would be moved and the house was being watched and the charm would break as soon as he left.

Hahahaaa it would be hilarious for him to climb into Hermione's bag.

It would be so much easier if they all just disguise as random muggles with polyjuice potion and went to harry, changed him into a random muggle too or use invisibility cloak or just hide him in a bag, and all just go to one near by location to portkey back to the Burrow.

Why didn't he just climb into Hermione's enchanted handbag?

But Harry didn't know how to pull the memories from his mind... And like others said, the MoM wouldn't believe his memories anyway

Because the point of this whole endeavour is to torture three young teenagers, with the bulk of the torture on Harry. Why else?

memories can be changed and modified just like Professor Slughorn modified his memory to make it look like he yelled at Tom Riddle

No matter what Harry said or did, the Ministry would make up some weak excuse to say that he was lying. They would say that Dumbledore had modified Harry’s memory or taught Harry how to change his own memory. There was no problem that Harry didn’t have evidence (he had a dead body, Cedric, Barty Crouch Jr., a portkey, the burning dark mark of Snape, the fleeing of Karkoroff, a dead Barty Crouch Sr. and Winky’s testimony of Barty Crouch Jr.’s life. The problem was that the Ministry just didn’t want to believe he was back. Fudge was weak-minded and didn’t want to deal with the problems that would have arose.

Just saying but Dumbledore never seemed to want the ministry knowing he even had the pensieve as to my guessing it was an ancient rune artifact (I think it was in the 4th or 5th book he noted quickly hiding it from them when they entered his office), maybe the trade of letting the ministry know of Voldemort and risking loosing the pensieve was just not worth it and he had a different plan for it.

Yes, people can tamper with memories, but it's hard to do and when most do, they end up looking like Slughorn's memory. But do you really think that a 4th year student like Harry Potter would've known how to tamper with his own memory? I think this is a legitimate plothole. They could've just extracted his memory/he would probably give it up voluntarily to them if it meant that he didn't have to relive it himself.

Well Snape was able to procure memories of when he was only ten years old so it is possible to get memories of your childhood though maybe not when you still are a child. Regardless I think that would have been a better way of dealing with it since Dumbledore uses exact quotes from Voldemort when talking to Harry in the Half Blood Prince which I just think seems a bit unlikely. After all the trauma he;d been through I doubt Harry would be directly quoting word for word everything everyone said.

Not only that, they did mention at one point that extracting a memory is not as easy as it seems and usually only adults can give memories. And it usually cannot be done of memories when they were "children" I do not know if this means a certain age like 16?

People can tamper with their memories. I imagine that if someone got really good at it, the fog wouldn't show up like it did with Slughorn.

Additional comment: by relived, I mean re-told the story by means of the pensieve.

You're all making huge (and overall terrible) excuses for this alleged error. It's actually quite simple: Harry is bad at Astronomy. I think he only got an 'A' on his OWL.

They were taking an astronomy exam. The examiners could have easily (and probably did) do some sort of spell to have the sky show things that it wouldn’t normally show. If they didn’t, the students would have to spend days taking the exam because only certain things are visible sometimes and other times the weather obstructs the view etc.

JK Rowling never claims that Harry Potter takes place in the same reality we live in. For all we know, it could take place in an alternate reality where Venus is visible at midnight. Oh wait! It does, otherwise we would have heard about death eaters destroying London...

Where is Hogwarts anyway?....

THIS ISN'T A PLOTHOLE. Plotholes are areas where the universe an author sets up contradicts itself. Science doesn't have to match up with the real world, only with the science used elsewhere within the literary universe. This is the same as saying "Wait, goblins don't exist in the real world!" or, "You can't turn back time! Einstein proved that's impossible!" In Rowling's universe, either they have magical telescopes that can look at any celestial body at any time, or else Venus is simply visible at midnight, either way this doesn't contradict anything in the HP series.

interesting error. It must be a magic telescope. ;)

They clearly have a telescope that can bend around corners and show plots in a 360 sphere

1. Are you perfect? Didn't think so. 2. THEYRE FRICKEN MAGIC! They can probably do some sort of charm on the telescope, DUH!

It's a magical telescope in a magical school?

... I don't think an error of science really constitutes a plothole in a book about magic. Emphasis on MAGIC. Science isn't exactly relevant in Harry Potter, and even if it were, magic telescopes, anyone? Also, I think they studied astronomy because it has a lot of relevance in magic, like in mythology (mythological wizards are often referred to as historical figures in this series).

i agree it didn't effect the book no one cares :)

I don't think this counts as a plot hole. It's an error, but since seeing Venus in no way affects the story, it's not a problem in the PLOT.

because magic!

Haha an obscure but very valid plot-hole, well done. I never understood having astronomy as a class at Hogwarts anyways. Astrology sure might be a type of divination that wizards have mastered but as was said, astronomy is a (muggle) science.

well...what can you say? It's children's book and J.K. Rowling probably didn't bother to look out every single (tiny) detail. It would've taken years! I thinks it's understandable.

It can easily be mistaken for a toy flashlight! in one of the books it states that lumos is the one underage spells allowed! it either says that in a book or she says it in one of her interviews. I don't remember which.

UNDERAGED MAGIC!!

It is from the movie, it SHOULD NOT MATTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

lumos isn't acctually a spell its just like a touch, like it only makes light appear at the end of your wand.

It's a loophole in the movie, not in the book. In the book he has a flashlight in his hand, in the movie he's practicing the spell Lumos Maxima, but in the book he is writing about the Witch Hunting in the medieval times!

In one Book it says that the Trace does not pick up a single underage wizard, but alot of the space around him (thats why in the COS dobby's spell almost gets Harry expelled) and that at wizard families the parents are supposed to control their children. As if they could do that (in case of the Weasley twins)

Maybe it's a fault of filming, it's also possible that the law is not as strict as we think. Just remember the first meeting of Harry, Ron and Hermione on the train in the first book. Ron tries a spell on the rat, when Hermione arrives, and says "I already tried some of easy spells, they all worked for me" (from hungarian translation) SO, Hermione also used spells even before she began to attend school :) Maybe the most important point in this regulation is "not in presence of muggles" (so maybe if a muggle sees the result of 'lumos' spell it's also not problem if believes that it's a regular light source etc.)

thats only in the film. in the book it says he uses a torch

*sigh* MOVIE not BOOK !

I think its only illegal if its in the presence of a muggle

What I don't understand about the trace, is that I think in the sixth book, someone tells Harry, Dumbledore I think, that the way the trace works is that they show an underage wizard is living there with no adults. I think he specifically mentions that underage wizards can use magic in wizarding families and no one would know, and it's up to the parent's to keep their kid's magic in check. But then in the 7th book, all of a sudden the trace is everywhere Harry goes.

Yeah, in the movies they also forgot to have Sirius give Harry the mirror, and then NEVER explained what the heck all the weird warped images were in the 7th movie. Essentially ignore the movies. They make TONS of stupid mistakes.

In the book he used a flashlight. movie directors are stupid sometimes.

The movies are as dumb as you are if you care about the movies...it never happened in the book

When he used Lumos to do his work,he wasnt in the preseance of a muggle.He was alone in his room

i know i thought that to lol but its a movie, things like that happen in movies not jkr fault